Electronic Ignition

[Guest imported_Speedster]

I'm considering converting my '56 Autolite Distributor points to an Electronic Module. The ones I've been looking at, are the 'CraneCams Optical' type and the 'Pertronix Hall-Effect' type. I'm trying to deside which would be the most reliable system. The only experiences I've had with these systems was back in the '60s, and those optical systems didn't work very well at higher RPMs.

I'm sure they have improved since then ? (Hopefully)

The main difference in the two systems is that the Hall-Effect unit is all inside distributor with only two wires to coil but the Optical unit has an external box that has to be mounted on firewall or somewhere. Therefore I'm leaning toward the Pertronix unit. Pertronix has one made for the '55 Delco but it would have to be modified to fit the Autolite.

Has anyone tryed either of these systems ?

[Guest imported_Speedster]

Another Question about Distributors:

Does the '56 Delco and '56 Autolite Distributors have the same size Cam?

(the part of center shaft that the points ride on)

If they are the same then using the Module designed for the Delco, should fit the Autolite. <img src="http://www.aaca.org/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" />

[Guest imported_PackardV8]

go tot Craigs Panther website. I think he covers the MSD conversion he did with a delco dist.

I prefer going the route of using a GM HEI (pre computer) distributor and this has been discussed from time to time here in this Fourum. In fact Craig gave me a contact name in Memphis of a man that apparently has already made the GM hei fit the V8. I'll try to find that number later on. The beauty part of the GM HEI is parts availability and its bullet proof track record that will fullfill any reasonable needs for a civilian operated engine.

[Guest imported_Speedster]

Thanks for the suggestions, PackardV8

I had considered both the MSD-5 and Converting to HEI but desided that there were problems with those. The MSD uses the original points (with it's weaknesses) as the trigger for the system and trying to convert to HEI seemed to have too many design change problems. But the major problem with those is they, along with the CraneCams system, change the Look of the Ignition system.

I want to keep the Original look of the AutoLite Dist. while improving the efficiency and reliablity of the Ignition. And presently, I think the Pertronix system is the only one that will do that. But I need to find out if it will fit the Autolites Cam? I called Pertronix but they couldn't tell me (until I sent them a distributor and paid them $250.) Since I can buy the Delco unit for $80. at J.C.Whitney, I'd be better off buying it to try. But I hope I can find out if the Cams are the same size before ordering it?

Do you have a '56 Delco dist. that the Cam width could be measured (on the flats and at the peaks)? Thanks

[joe kastellic]

Rick, you can convert your autolite dist. by using a prettonix igntion, the 56 stude golden hawks use this dist. log on to: studefarm@yahoo.com they have a converison it cost 160.00 you can contact John at cell # 254-485-2890 he is the one that has the kit. I also prefer to go with the HEI, you get more bang for the buck, I am running the MSD 5 with points right now it works just fine, but as soon as some one comes up with the HEI , for the packard V8 thats the way I am going, I hope ASAP! BTW, the MSD works gtreat!! it uses 3 sparks per cylinder!! you can see this when you have access to a ignition scope. take care Joe

[Guest imported_PackardV8]

i'll measure a 56 delco and report back later on this afternoon.

[bernardi]

Is there any reason why Pertronix and MSD cannot be used together? Can the MSD unit tell whether points or Pertronix fire the system?

[WCraigH]

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Quote:</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Is there any reason why Pertronix and MSD cannot be used together? Can the MSD unit tell whether points or Pertronix fire the system? </div></div>

Yes and no. The more expensive MSD boxes (6AL, 7...) will trigger off of almost any system. You'd have to call MSD to make sure, but that's the way I remember it. The least expensive unit (MSD-5) is not as flexible.

WRT Brian's comments above: I carry 1 jumper wire in the glove box to remove the MSD from the ignition circuit and convert it back to stock. I've never had to use it. Also, the only wear factor is the point rubbing block on the distributor cam lobes. With MSD, dwell is irrelevent. So long as the points open/close, the MSD will fire. But crank timing has to be checked occasionally because the rubbing block wear will cause it to change.

One last thing, I mounted my MSD-5 box down in the P-side fenderwell. You can't see it unless you are REALLY looking. Another mounting option would be inside the passenger compartment under the dash somewhere.

[Guest imported_Speedster]

Brian

Do you remember what complaints or problems were had with the Pertronix unit?

(They are polarity sensitive, if you Reverse the Battery they will burn out.)

Joe

I called John Brooks and got some good Info. ,Thanks

He said that unit #1189, made for '55 Delco Dist. will not work in Autolite, since it is for Positive Ground and thought the Dist. Cams were different.

PackardV8

I would like to have the measurements of Delco Dist. Cam. Thanks!

So, it looks like the only Pertronix unit that will fit the '56 Autolite are the ones modified by John Brooks.

[Guest]

In some respects I maybe a little old fashion and like to spend my wisely. I can''t figure out why soeone would want to spend that much money on trying to convert to electronic ignition. I realy see no advantage to the conversion except maybe in an high performance application.

Hell same set of points in my Chevelle have been going strong for the last five years or better. It seems to me that even a new set of points and condensor every year would certainly be a lot cheaper and easier that some of the prices be quoted in here, and possible work that might have to be done to do the conversion

[Guest imported_Speedster]

Packard53

The main problem I've been having with Points is if you have many cars like we do, each one doesn't get driven very often, allowing moisture to collect in distributor causing points to get high resistance contacts.

And of course many people think that a Fun part of the Restoration Hobby is Improveing and Personalizing their machines.

[Guest imported_Speedster]

Brian

The reason I like the Pertronix unit, is that it is a very simple design, (one small Sealed pickup unit and a Sealed Magnet unit that slips over dist. cam), Which should be fairly reliable, since it will Not be effected by moisture or dirt and there is nothing mechanical involved (other than the rotation of the Dist. shaft). But, like you say, it's not Repairable. If it goes out, all you can do is get a new one (Hopefully in warranty) <img src="http://www.aaca.org/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/wink.gif" alt="" /> But in my case it think the advantages out weigh that disadvantage and cost. <img src="http://www.aaca.org/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" />

[Guest imported_Speedster]

I also found out that the Pertronix unit operates better (less chance of Overheating) if operated about 10.Volts (for the '55/'56 12.volt systems). So a Ballist-Resistor is Needed. That's not a problem with most of our cars since they have one already but if you have a Starter-solenoid that bypasses the Ballist while Starter is engaged, then that Bypass needs to be removed. (can be disconnected at starter or at Ballist-Resistor) Or you can mount another Resistor on Coil and go thru it and not connect the original resistor to coil (which is what I think I'll do, since the original can be used if the new one should fail for some reason and the coil I'm using already has a place to mount it, that I removed earlier).

[Guest imported_PackardV8]

BH wrote "...

but it was a module in a 1975 model (yet with less than 18K on the clock) that left me stranded...."

The early modules in the GM HEI suffered from oxidation on the contacts. Clean the contacts and apply some silicone (the gel type silicone NOT the spray) and the problem will be solved for good.

AND

" dwell can be set with a feeler guage for a new set of points, and you can get timing pretty close, "

Forget the dwell meter. Dwell meter is nonsense. Use .018 feeler gauge.

I can show anyone how to set the timing (POINTS system only)) DEAD NUTS in 15 minutes EVERYTIME FIRST TIME without ever starting the engine. I just wish someone would tell me how to do it with the HEI system.

[Guest imported_PackardV8]

P'53, u'r absolutley right about the ignition point superiority for service and reliability. ESPECIALY if u'r comparing to the non-GM e-ignition sytems prior to about 1983. The GM hei (non-computerized) IS reliable and will yield better gas mileage and power and smoothness. I am after the gas mileage. IF gas goes to $5/gal (i damned well hope it DOES) then the fuel cost savings will be significant. Especialy since i drive the Executive about 3k to 5K miles per year mostly 60-80 mph. Even at $2/gal if hei will give me 18mpg instesad of 15 mpg thats a gas savings of about $60/year for maybe a $60 inital investment in the HEI dist. from a junk yard.

The HEI conversions ARE somewhat of a moot point however on engines with less than 8:1 CR. Thats why i do not convert my Indian or Ferguson to HEI to-wit drop in kits are available.

[joe kastellic]

Brain, I do remember when GM did come out with HEI, late 74 on sume cars and standard on the 1975 cars, and we did have PROBLEMS with the system the first few years, but also I did have module failures with the ford and some mopars (bad grounds) BTW, still a problem with curent mopar grounds. The only problems I have seen lately with ALL HEI igntions in general is CHEAP aftermarket parts, you get what you pay for!!! If you open up an aftermarket module you will see the elimanation of some miro-circuits which can efect timing, and start up in some situations, afected by tempature, when I work on late model cars I ALAWYS replace the electronic parts factory oringals, then you have less of a chance of a comback, also I have seen where some aftermarket tachs. won't work with aftermarket modules (GM) but that is rare. I have had the same problems with the computer(early 1981) controlled systems , but as time goes on the bugs wre worked out. take care Joe

[Guest imported_Speedster]

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Quote:</div><div class="ubbcode-body"> I mounted my MSD-5 box down in the P-side fenderwell. Another mounting option would be inside the passenger compartment under the dash somewhere. </div></div>

Craig

I have read that the wires from Distributor to MSD unit should be kept as short as possible to decrease possible problems (inaccurate pulses to MSD). Do you think mounting MSD under Dash may cause these problems? (that may be an advantage of using original points as trigger instead of a Magnetic Pickup)

What about RFI noise in Radio?

[WCraigH]

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Quote:</div><div class="ubbcode-body"> I have read that the wires from Distributor to MSD unit should be kept as short as possible to decrease possible problems (inaccurate pulses to MSD). </div></div>

Rick:

The MSD-5 comes with a sheathed, fixed length wire loom. If you use that you shouldn't have any problem. If you "cut and paste" the provided wire set, then you're on your own.

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Quote:</div><div class="ubbcode-body"> Do you think mounting MSD under Dash may cause these problems? (that may be an advantage of using original points as trigger instead of a Magnetic Pickup) </div></div>

Where'd you read about this "possible problems" stuff? When I owned my Pontiac high performance & racing car business back in the 1970s-early 1980s, I was a Warehouse-Distributor for the whole MSD line. Autotronics had MSD-5 and MSD-6s back then and I never heard of such a thing out of 1000s sold. Of course, if you use some mag p/u with inadequate voltage output, then MAYBE you could have a problem. In which case, don't do that.

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Quote:</div><div class="ubbcode-body"> What about RFI noise in Radio? </div></div>

On my 55 Pat with MSD-5, I have an aftermarket AM/FM/CD player in the glove box and have zero ignition noise.

BTW, another "rumor" is that MSD-5 is not multi-spark and low performance and one should use MSD-6AL instead. This is BS given by those who want to sell you the more expensive 6AL. So long as you have a stock engine running below about 5500 rpm, MSD-5 is adequate. Racing or super/turbocharged is another matter entirely.

I don't sell this stuff anymore, but IMO Autotronics' MSD line is vastly superior to anything comparable. Walk around the pits at any NHRA national meet and check out every vehicle from Stock to Top Fuel. Almost all have MSD ignition of one sort or another. That should convince you right there because these people cannot afford an ignition failure and will spend whatever is necessary for the best out there.

[Guest imported_Speedster]

Craig

Thanks for putting my Mind at ease about those areas. <img src="http://www.aaca.org/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" />

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Quote:</div><div class="ubbcode-body"> Where'd you read about this "possible problems" stuff? </div></div>

I've been getting most of my information from the Pertronix and MSD Websites (tech support) and their tech support guys, when I called them.

I found another possible problem with the Pertronix. They have 2 versions (the Ignitor and the Ignitor-2) The Ignitor-2 supposedly fixed a problem with the other, in that the ignition-switch can Not be left on for more than 30 seconds, without the engine running or turning over, or it will Overheat and may Burn out. So I need to make sure that John Brooks uses the Ignitor-2 in his conversion kits.

Yes, I Agree that the MSD is a Very good system, but if the Pertronix can do the Job without having to Add an external box, like the MSD, Why use it?

After all, this is a Stock '56, that is only going to be driven around town sometimes. I'm mainly trying to fix the problems caused by corrosion and wear of points <img src="http://www.aaca.org/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/cool.gif" alt="" />

Here is a website with Track Data, on the 2 types and points, that I thought was interesting.

http://www.vintageperformance.com/retrorockets/track.htm

[joe kastellic]

Craig, what type of ignition are you going to use on ths Panther? thanks Joe

[WCraigH]

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Quote:</div><div class="ubbcode-body"> Craig, what type of ignition are you going to use on ths Panther? thanks Joe </div></div>

MSD-5. The Autolite distributor has been completely "gone thru" and recurved for the cam, while retaining stock (new) points. Since the cam is expected to produce maximum HP at 5000 (see Computer simulation of Panther engine, the MSD-5 will work fine. Back in the day, I've used an analogous type of combo many times with good results (no misfire, great torque & HP, reliable).

[WCraigH]

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Quote:</div><div class="ubbcode-body"> Here is a website with Track Data, on the 2 types and points, that I thought was interesting (snip)</div></div>

Interesting that MSD-style wasn't tried or how about a magneto? These guys tried to do it right, making essentially back-to-back tests, but also didn't make atmospheric corrections.

If you're going to believe drag strip results (and who wouldn't?), then I would believe all the NHRA guys who use MSD including myself back in the day. FYI, my 1974 Pontiac Firebird Trans Am 455 Super Duty set an NHRA National Record in 1977 at Fremont Drag Strip. At the time, I was using a 1963 Pontiac 421 Super Duty mechanical tach drive distributor, but ignition timed by my own design crankshaft magnetic trigger thru an MSD-7 ignition. If there were a quicker, more reliable combination possible at the time, I would have been using it. Did the crank mag trigger actually add any performance? It was certainly more "accurate" than any distributor-based timing. Then and now, I would say NO, it didn't add any measurable performance. Once you reach "maximum ignition", you've peaked and you're not going to get any more power until you change something else fundamental such as combustion chamber design, intake/exhaust port flow, etc.

On the other hand, belief in ignition types/brands are sort of like religion. Run what works for you and will get you to "heaven." <img src="http://www.aaca.org/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" />

[Guest imported_Speedster]

Well, John Brooks says that he can Not sell the Pertronix Ignitor-2 unit for the '56 Autolite Distributor. (Only the original Ignitor version at $160. , which is more than twice the cost of an unmodified unit). So, looks like I'm back where I started, with My Trusty Old Points, that we all Know and Love. <img src="http://www.aaca.org/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/blush.gif" alt="" />

[Twitch]

BTW Rick on the subject that was going about electronic ignitions- For sure Pertronix does not list a unit for the 288 that uses Delco distributor. Was by a speed shop yesterday and had a them look it up since they sold the units.

[Guest imported_Speedster]

Yes, I saw that was for the Autolite Dist. Only. <img src="http://www.aaca.org/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/crazy.gif" alt="" />

You may want to call John Brooks, to see if he can make up one.

254-485-2890 (cel) or 817-594-0840

That's the same problem I'm having. They make everything, Except what I Need. <img src="http://www.aaca.org/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/frown.gif" alt="" />

[Twitch]

What year is your car again? I would have figured there'd be more cars with Delco than Autolite distributors as the same Delco unit is used into the 50s by other makes and someone would make one, but nooooooo! Who is John Brooks?

[joe kastellic]

Rick, I was wondering how your coming along with the electronic ignition, I have a email from john brooks dated 9/8/04 he says that he can convert the autolite dist. using the pertronix unit if the orig. point plate is still in the dist. Has this changed? can he still convert the autolite dist. for the 56 cars? What is the current status? I still want to go with the HEI setup as first choice because of the ease of parts available, but if that doesn't become an option, then I will go with the pertronix unit. Joe

[joe kastellic]

Rick, why do want to go with pertronix Ignitor 2 unit,? I have used the orig. pertronix conversion, and as I write this have not had any problems, I have heard of other people having proplems, but they had installed it wrong, usually not measureing the clearance, needed in some applcatons, by installing the shims which are supplied with the kit, or other wiring problems related to the ignition,or a sloppy dist. which you have to check fisrt any way, In my previous post I did not read the post dated 12/15/04 ,thats why some of my questions may not make sense. Joe