Torsion Level Motor

[Guest AlK]

Hey guys

on a 55 clipper, does the t/l motor just unbolt so it can be rebuilt or do you need special tools to disconnect the torsion bars first.

[Guest imported_Speedster]

No special tools needed. You can remove any of the motor-gearbox assembly parts without removing or changing the main or short torsion bars. I recommend removing the complete motor-gearbox assembly before trying to disassemble the motor from the gearbox. It's much easyer to work on, on the work bench, not under the car. <img src="http://www.aaca.org/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/blush.gif" alt="" /> And the assembly usually needs cleaning and inspecting anyway.

To disconnect the large rods that go from gearbox to short torsion bars, remove the bar bearing endcaps and tap the rods and caps off of short torion bar ends.

[Guest Randy Berger]

Rick is correct, but be sure to unload the auxiliary bars first as described in the shop manual. The tool to remove the ends of the links is the same tool used to adjust the tension on the manual steering links -

a large screwdriver-like tool to snap on the end of your ratchet.

YFAM, Randy Berger

[Guest imported_Speedster]

Yes, I have always been able to run the motor to neutral or Unloaded position. But if the motor is not operating, even with a battery connected directly to it, and the linkage rods are not at unloaded position, then you would need to unload the bars with tool or you may have an unwanted Dancing partner under the car with you. <img src="http://www.aaca.org/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/grin.gif" alt="" /> Thanks Randy, I forgot about that situation.

[Guest imported_PackardV8]

Are 55's different from 56's?????? I've removed the TL motor on 2 different 56's by just removing the wires and 2 bolts. One of the bolts IS difficult to get to but it CAN be done by just removing the bolts.

Whats wrong with the Motor Al ?????

[Guest AlK]

At this point I do not know that anything is wrong with it. It's the 55 Clipper that I purchased in Milwaukee 2 years ago and sold to a friend of mine who actually went to Milwaukee to get it. It is up on the rack here in Phenix City having the brakes done and the rear end is sorely dragging on the ground. There was a 4 x 4 stuck up between the body and the axle and that is what kept it level. They are going to try the motor today and see if it works, but these are just everyday mechanics and know very little about Packards. In fact I am the Packard expert in this crew, and isn't that a sad state of affairs. However they have the tools and equipment and they know brakes, which brakes should be brakes regardless of marque. So if the motor works then we can level the car but if it don't work I wanted to be able to take the motor off and send it out to have it rebuilt. But if that requires specific knowledge or tools and equipment then I will tell him to leave it alone and we can bring it to Don Taccone in Birmingham who can fix it.

[Guest imported_PackardV8]

BEFORE removing the motor:: There are ONLY two wires running to the motor itself. MARK the wires and remove them and clean the terminals. Take a LONG test wire and connect it to the battery post. Connect the other end to either one of the posts on the TL motor. one post is UP. the other post is DOWN. If it does not work at first try rapping on the side of the TL motor with a small hammer or reach in thru the cover band and giggle the brushes a little.

*** By removing ONLY the motor u CAN still drive the car safely. ***

If u disconnect alot of suspension linkage then the car will be DISabled.

Al, call me if u need any further advice.

[Guest imported_PackardV8]

If there is nothing wrong with the motor then the problem is most likely in the other wireing and TL controls. NOT WORTH THE trouble to fix the circuitry. Just run two wires from the motor to a 3 position swithch on the dash and be happy. Thats what i did. ITS RELIABLE!!!. I used an original Packard antenna sw. (same as conv. top sw.).

[Guest imported_PackardV8]

WARNING: when removing the TL motor BE CAREFUL that the armature does not fall out of the motor. If it hits the ground there is a strong probability that it will ruin the armature. There is nothing to hold the armature in place once the motor is removed from the car.

[Guest Randy Berger]

I'm willing to bet that fuses, wiring or a solenoid is the culprit, and PackardV8s suggestion to test that will show that to be the case. However being a cautious fellow, I'm only betting a quarter. <img src="http://www.aaca.org/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/wink.gif" alt="" />

Hmm, 1955 - make sure the stoplight fuse is OK or T/L won't work.

YFAM, Randy Berger

[Guest imported_PackardV8]

ANY brush type electric motor that sets idle for morethan 6 monts or so (especialy outdoors) will form a lite corrosion on the brushes and/or commutator. Usualy, inm this case the motor can just be turned by hand several times to get it going or just lightly sand the commutator and brushes will do the trick.

[Guest imported_PackardV8]

Randy brings up a good point thats ez to diagnose. If the stop lite sw is faulty that can cause the motor to quit. Just bypass the stop lite sw. as a test.

[Guest Randy Berger]

Bypassing the switch is a good idea, BUT the stoplight fuse, or body feed fuse, whichever way it's labeled, must be good or the T/L will not work. That fuse is the feed for the stoplights and the T/L, and several other circuits.

YFAM, Randy Berger

[Guest imported_Speedster]

PackardV8, Wouldn't connecting motor directly to power thru doublethrow switch in dash be Bypassing the limit switches in gearbox? <img src="http://www.aaca.org/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/confused.gif" alt="" /> It seems to me that could cause damage in gearbox if you happen to run it too far in either direction.

[Guest imported_PackardV8]

Yes. thats true. One has to be careful not to run the suspension to extreme limits. There is a Service Counselor or STB that covers the correct way to allow for a manual bypass of the system circuitry.

The other way would be to sprice into the limiter switches directly. BUT if the limiter sw's are bad then we're back to square one on diagnosis and correction.

I prefer the direct connect method. Cheap, effective, simple and so-forth. BUT YES, the draw back is being aware of the limitations. If nothing else its a good quick fix until the stock circuirty can be diagnosed which is a rather involved process.

[Guest imported_PackardV8]

One must be very aware of the limit sw's. If grease has been introduced to the TL gear box then will heavy grease effect the operation of the limit sw's???? I don't really know but i'm guessing yes. The book calls for a special "grease" (apparently that is lite viscous) and indicates do NOT use chassis or wheel bearing grease. BUT, whith a 50 year old component how do we know what is in it????

[Guest imported_Speedster]

Yes, I could see how the heavy wheelbearing grease (more like tar than grease) that we used to get in the '50s could gum up the switch and make it stick open, But I don't think you can get that heavy grease anymore, at least I haven't been able to find any.

If you know of a source for it, I would like to get some. It's great for holding parts in place, when you need a third hand and it doesn't hold water like the new stuff. <img src="http://www.aaca.org/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/laugh.gif" alt="" />

[WCraigH]

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Quote:</div><div class="ubbcode-body">(snip) So if the motor works then we can level the car but if it don't work I wanted to be able to take the motor off and send it out to have it rebuilt. But if that requires specific knowledge or tools and equipment then I will tell him to leave it alone and we can bring it to Don Taccone in Birmingham who can fix it. </div></div>

The T-L motor is nothing but a starter motor with two fields (so it will reverse). Anybody who can fix starter motors can fix a T-L motor.

[Mr.Pushbutton]

Sure, just hook up some switches and bypass the Tl circutry, It never worked anyway. And pull that weird Packard V-8 motor and put in a small block Chevy,Packard didn't know much about motors. It might be difficult to adapt to your Ultra-torqueflite II, but Jim Bob and Cooter will get er' done.

[Guest imported_Speedster]

Mr.Pushbutton,

JimBob and Cooter are giving you a [color:"blue"] Negitive Attitude. <img src="http://www.aaca.org/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/shocked.gif" alt="" />

You have to realize that, There are always those that have to do it 'Their Way' <img src="http://www.aaca.org/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/grin.gif" alt="" /> But that's Okay, even tho it may Not be the Correct way. <img src="http://www.aaca.org/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/crazy.gif" alt="" />

[Guest imported_Speedster]

B.H.

Thanks for the Info, I didn't realize the '55 doesn't have limit switches in gearbox. I've only worked on '56. But seems like I have seen a '55 service manual that shows them in gearbox. <img src="http://www.aaca.org/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/confused.gif" alt="" /> Was there a mid year change or something? (Or maybe the manual was made to cover both years but didn't show both types)

[Guest imported_PackardV8]

A few have opined to the following idea:

"But that's Okay, even tho it may Not be the Correct way".

As well as:

"....but Jim Bob and Cooter will get er' done".

ok. So then. WHAT IS the "Correct way"?????? Send a big check to one of the vendors for NOS parts and replace all of them????? Send it to a "Packard Proffesional Service Tech" that claims to restore it to "factory spec" or "REdesigns" the problem or maybe model it after a 1965 Packard V12?????

WHAT'S your point???

[joe kastellic]

I was just thinking, is there someway to "weather proof" the TL motor? could you replace the solinoids with ones that are used for "severe usage" most of our cars sit idle in the winter months and that doesn't help the "natural corrison" that takes place because most of us do not have the option of having a garage that is "moisture free" or live in a desert climate where humidty is not a factor. "a chain is only as good as its strongest link" I know that the cost factor is an issue to deal with , but I would rather have more "driveing time" than having to deal with "down time" take care Joe

[Guest imported_Speedster]

I was halfway Joking when I referred to 'Do it the Correct way', but I have always felt that repairing things to Factory Speces is 'doing it the correct way' when repairing a restored car. But like I said, if someone wants to do it differently, with their car, then that's Okay. I have build streetrods, retrorods, as well as restorations to original and enjoy all the projects. <img src="http://www.aaca.org/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/grin.gif" alt="" />

[Guest imported_Speedster]

B.H.

Thanks for Info on Manuals.

I tryed to find what I was thinking about in my manuals, but couldn't. <img src="http://www.aaca.org/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/crazy.gif" alt="" />

[color:"blue"] Guess it's that Old Age thing showing up Again. <img src="http://www.aaca.org/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/grin.gif" alt="" />

[Guest Albert]

I wonder if one could use the limit switch off one of the cadi's or such a beast that also has a load leveler in it, as all they have is two switches for "too high" and "too low"...

[Guest imported_Speedster]

The '56 limit switches are Normally-closed with a special small rounded push-in activation plunger. I have never seen this type switch anywhere else before so I think they were made just for the T-L assembly. For some other manufactures switch to work it would have to be an exact copy of the Packard gearbox assembly.

[Guest imported_PackardV8]

Does it Make or Break the circuit when pushed in????? I dont really know because i've never had one apart.

[Guest Randy Berger]

The 1956 switches are normally in contact, but when the internal

mechanism rotates, the button springs into a detent designed as the

limit for rotation in that direction and breaks the circuit, so

button in makes contact, button out (in detent) breaks contact.

What normally breaks on these switches is the wiring on the

exterior of the switch. The switch can be removed, the rubber

covering cut away, the receptacles for the wire carefully drilled

out - JUST enough to accomodate a short length of wire

(1/4 inch) and the old wire clipped off and resoldered into the

switch. Then apply some Plasti-grip or glyptal and screw the

switch back in and reconnect the wires. I've done several.

Actually I'm hoarding my NOS switches for when I can no longer

repair the originals. I did make the metal shield (as shown

in a Service Counselor) to prevent stones etc. from battering

that area.

(whew, that guy is long-winded <img src="http://www.aaca.org/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/blush.gif" alt="" />)

YFAM, Randy Berger <img src="http://www.aaca.org/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/grin.gif" alt="" />

[Guest imported_PackardV8]

what kind of lubricant do u use in the TL gear box????

[Guest imported_PackardV8]

"button in makes contact, button out (in detent) breaks contact. "

THAT'S what i was worried about.

On Craigs website he showed pics of a TL main shaft (i think he found two that way) that had twisted due to overrunning the TL limit range. If the grease causes the button to hold in and not drop into the detent then the limiter sw will not break the circuit.

It should have been designed to work just the opposite. That way if the grease were to hold it in then the system would stop working completely but would not allow for an overrun.

When i rigged up my Billy-Bod and Cooter switch on the dash for the manual control i made a little wiring harness just like that shown in the STB for manual override and connected it to the TL control box. It would not work. After diagnosing the system i determined that the limiter sw. part of the circuit was not allowing current to flow so i probably have the bad wires like u indicate in your post.

"....done several.

Actually I'm hoarding my NOS switches for when I can no longer

repair the originals. I did make the metal shield (as shown

in a Service Counselor) to prevent stones....."

But i also gather from your post that apparently the wire replacement procedure is something u have to perform on a somewehat regular basis???? OR does the stone sheild do the trick????

[Guest imported_PackardV8]

BH wrote:

"(In contrast, however, I was given - and more than once - incorrect information by so-called experts that the dash switch for the manual control kit was merely an antenna switch.)"

The switch supplied with the kit was a special sw. ?????

[Guest Randy Berger]

Keith, I'll respond to both questions here.

<span style="font-style: italic">Actually I'm hoarding my NOS switches for when I can no longer

repair the originals</span> I've done my own and several others. The ones I fixed are still working fine, as far as I know. Obviously a lot of originals are still functioning properly also. The metal shield was a recommendation in the Service Counselor and I installed it because it was recommended - seemed like a good idea.

The manual control switch is a special three-position switch, part #6492143 and is in Group 4.22606. AS designed it will stay in whatever position you place it, UP, Automatic, and DOWN. I didn't like that arrangement as I had read

that some people when pulling the switch from UP to AUTO pulled too far and pulled it into the DOWN position immediately reversing the T/L motor. That puts an unnecessary strain on the motor. I modified the switch so that it is spring-loaded. Push for UP and pull for DOWN. When released the switch will automatically return to the center AUTO position. It works well as Brian H can testify.

I also have the uncatalogued American Flyer train running in the trunk. This is a rare little-known accessory designed for the kid in all of us. <img src="http://www.aaca.org/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/grin.gif" alt="" />

(I told you that guy was long-winded <img src="http://www.aaca.org/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/blush.gif" alt="" />)

YFAM, Randy Berger

[Guest imported_Speedster]

I'm curious about this Stoneshield plate. My '56 has a plate that hangs down next to motor (about 6" high by 10" wide). Is that the plate you are referring to, Or is there another one that is recommended?

I first noticed it when the sharp corner on bottom edge put a hole in my hand. <img src="http://www.aaca.org/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/blush.gif" alt="" />

[Jack Harlin]

BH

If Randy collected coins or stamps that dont require electric power to operate, he wouldnt know all these things. Operating the running of trains is very difficult to figure out where the two wires go. Jack

[Guest Randy Berger]

Rick, the shield is described in SC 30 02 page 8. I've attached a scan.

The T/L manual control swith AUTO position is wired in series with the T/L

shutoff switch located to the left of the emergency brake handle. So when you move the switch to UP or DOWN you automatically shut off the normal operation of the T/L system. Thanks Brian <img src="http://www.aaca.org/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/grin.gif" alt="" /> - I had forgotten to accurately describe the AUTO position of the switch.

Torsion Level Suspension Limit Switch Wiring Guard

56th Series

The proving ground has informed us that the com- pensator limit switch and wiring closest to the pro- pellor shaft can be damaged by stones while driving over gravel roads.

Illustrated is an inexpensive guard which can be made up in your shop. The guard should be made from 18 gauge flat steel stock to the dimensions shown.

Install the guard on the rear inner side of the left front X member under the compensator bracket bolt and control switch rear bolt.

YFAM, Randy Berger

[Guest imported_Speedster]

Thanks for the drawing and Info.

Yes, that is a different plate. If I understand correctly that guard blocks stones from side, (direction of driveshaft) and the other larger plate blocks stones from front?

[Guest Randy Berger]

Rick, I modified the drawing a little to enter the dimensions which were

difficult to read. The text from the SC explains the shield. I'm not sure what other plate you are referring to.

YFAM, Randy Berger

[Guest imported_Speedster]

I got under car and measured the plate that is on my '56.

It is 5 1/2" by 11 1/2" at the widest points, with one end notched out.

It has a 90deg. flange on top that mounts to the channel bracket that gearbox slips into, on top side.

I assumed it was factory installed, but if it isn't, then there sure needs to be one there. I think that it was the reason my controller box is in such good shape. <img src="http://www.aaca.org/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/grin.gif" alt="" />

[Guest AlK]

craig:

you obviously have never lived in, or been near Phenix City Alabama. They would a hard time spelling t-l motor, let alone rebuild one. does the phrase "who made Packard? Ford or Gm" mean anything to you. In this town it is an honest question.