PLEASE EXPLAIN TO ME *DELETED*

[Guest imported_1965V12P]

Post deleted by 1965V12P

[Guest imported_Speedster]

Cause they made Good reliable engines for cars, boats and aircraft. <img src="http://www.aaca.org/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" />

[WCraigH]

1965V12P: with a handle like that and this only being your 2nd post, I hope that's not a loaded question. <img src="http://www.aaca.org/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/tongue.gif" alt="" />

[Guest AlK]

I'm not sure I want to go down this road. Could this be our old friend back.

[Guest]

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Quote:</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Can someone in this chatroom, tell me how Packard got the nickname (MASTER ENGINE BUILDERS), when it came to building automotive engines. </div></div>

Too bad my father isn't around to answer this one. During World War 11 he was a sailor on a Canadian Navy Motor Torpedo boats operating in the English Channel. His ship was powered by 4 V-12 Packard engines. I know I can speak for him when I say he had the greatest respect for Packard as Master Engine Builders.

[Guest Rojo22]

When WW2 broke out and Rolls Royce needed someone else to help make engines, they did an exhaustive study of engine manufacturers and Packard was the ONLY engine company that had the quality Rolls Royce would accept. That is pretty exclusive company.....

[Guest bkazmer]

I read that Packard actually revised and improved the Merlin design - the early Merlins were reported to have a nasty tendency to stall on dives. Someone with more aeronautics background can explain better than I.

[Guest]

Yes from what I have read the Packard Co. modified the Merlin to make it more easily assembled in a production line and to have parts which interchanged with the RR Merlin not necessarily to make it a better engine and it was not an easy process from what I have read. Ford apparently turned down the project as being too complex. The Packard engines in my dads MTB of course were not Merlins but 4M 2500 1200HP Packard Marine engines. He told me that the valve covers were embossed "Packard Detroit" and he always felt confidence that they would get him home which they invariably did.

Re German engineering; he was involved in more than one fire fight with the German equivalent E-Boats which were aluminum hulled and utilized Diesel engines whereas the MTBs were mahogany wood and used those big gas Packards burning high octane fuel. The E-boats were faster and would usually run because the MTBs had more firepower even though they were more vulnerable to fire and explosion.

[Guest imported_Speedster]

Didn't most of the MTBs have 3 engines instead of 4 ? <img src="http://www.aaca.org/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/confused.gif" alt="" />

[Guest BillP]

Master Engine Builders moniker earned by engineering and manufacturing excellence. The phrase might have been ad copy in its origin, but with Packard's capability it was fitting.

Liberty aero engine, WWI.

Numerous marine engines; race, military and commercial.

Packard-built Merlin, WWII.

Diesel aero engine.

Fine 6,8 & 12 cylinder auto engines.

Many other projects.

[Jack Harlin]

I had a book on these engines & loaned to a friend but never returned.As I remember it, after 8 Months in production Packard made several improvements. One was as BH said, but most important one was the lack of proper lubrication & low RPM. red line that pilots were warned not to exceed. A friend told me that flew a P-38 with the Packard engine, in a training dog fight exercise with major Bong, a war "Ace" with an English one he out did the Major because they didnt adhere to the red line on excessive RPMs. During the war they were overhauled at Middletown, Pa. Air Base. Having once living there, knowing some that worked there was told quite a difference between them, but I have no details on them. Its been reported also that Packard was the only mfg. that built every known type internal combustion engine, quite a feat in its self. Mabe thats has something to do with Master Engine Builders?????? Jack

[Guest]

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Quote:</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Didn't most of the MTBs have 3 engines instead of 4 ? <img src="http://www.aaca.org/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/confused.gif" alt="" /> </div></div>

The American "PT" boat ala JFK used 3 engines as did the British "Shorts" which were 70's. The British Vosper MTBs were 115'long and had 4 engines and 5200 gallons of gas to go about 500 Nautical miles or about 10 gallons per mile! <img src="http://www.aaca.org/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" />

[Guest]

Major Bong. Yes if ever passing through Poplar Wisconsin on US 2 stop and see the Major Bong memorial or if in Superior Wisc. the Major Bong museum. One of the bridges conecting Superior to Duluth MN is named the Bong Memorial bridge also. <img src="http://www.aaca.org/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" />

[Jack Harlin]

CLIPPER 47

Thanks for the info on the Major, I sure didnt know that. My friend Nelson & him were best buddies. He went to his Funeral & told us what had happened.

The book told about how the Navy abused the engines in the PT boats running them way beyond the operating hours before recommended overhauls. Reason was they were needed so bad they couldnt give them up, with no replacements.Jack

[Guest imported_1965V12P]

Post deleted by 1965V12P

[Guest imported_PackardV8]

"Master engine builders" was probably just slogan. Just like GM's "Mark of Excellence" or F's "Job 1". By and large, the Packard engines in the Sr cars and to some degree even among the Jr's were very large and powerful engines with alot of durability relative to their time and to some extent even by todays standards. The V8's (55 and 56) will hold their own just fine to this day. I prove it at least 2 or 3 times a week with my 56 Executive on 60+ miles Interstate excursions at 70-80mph. Other than gas mileage and some oiling problems the V8's will hold their own. I will have to admit that in order to own up the the "Master Engine Builders" slogan Packard Eng'ring really should have designed the V8's with adjustable pushrods and of course a better oil pump.

[Guest imported_Speedster]

Yep, 1965v12p is just trying to Stir things up, What I call a 'Boat Rocker' <img src="http://www.aaca.org/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/grin.gif" alt="" /> , but Hay, he got you guys fired up, with some interesting responces, didn't he?

[Packard8]

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Quote:</div><div class="ubbcode-body"> Yep, 1965v12p is just trying to Stir things up, What I call a 'Boat Rocker' <img src="http://www.aaca.org/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/grin.gif" alt="" /> , but Hay, he got you guys fired up, with some interesting responces, didn't he? </div></div>

Yep Rick,

I think the PFH Virus is back on the AACA server. I would be interesting if the Moderator checked the IP addy of ?1965V12P?.

<img src="http://www.aaca.org/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/shocked.gif" alt="" />

[Guest]

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Quote:</div><div class="ubbcode-body">

Yep Rick,

I think the PFH Virus is back on the AACA server. I would be interesting if the Moderator checked the IP addy of ?1965V12P?.

<img src="http://www.aaca.org/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/shocked.gif" alt="" /> </div></div>

My thinking also. <img src="http://www.aaca.org/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" />

[zergetz]

Hi Clipper:

I agree this "65V12" fellow does seem to have "issues" over the "Master Motor Builder" slogan Packard so proudly (and in my view, so correctly) flaunted. I understand some GM executives are still a bit diffident that, to this day, the Packard Merlins are still the engine of choice for air racers, over the GM Allison Div. motor of similar size and design.

The story of how Packard earned this self-appointed title is a fantastic one. Packard's rich history in quality engineering includes major advances in engineering terminology and methodology, as well as the products themselves. Much of it has already been discussed in this and other threads.

But. at the risk of repeating myself, what advantage is it to auto buffs and discussions about automotive technology, to get involved in "personality" discussions. It is not particularly kind of you to call me a "virus". A review of my "posts" will show I have tried to encourage LEGITIMATE exchanges about LEGITIMATE old car buff issues. Yes, it is unfortunate that a few in here find it disturbing to be disagreed with. I thought you were more adult than to join with that mentality.

Since this forum deals mostly with cars of a later era than I am primarily interested in, I have not followed it as much as I did when there was more attention to the older cars. But I still come in from time to time and watch. May I rely on you to try and set a more business-like example ?

Thanks:

Pete Hartmann

Big Springs, Arizona

[Guest]

Pete, You misinterpreted my response to Packard8. I did not refer to you as a "virus". I merely agreed that the moderator check the IP address to see if 1965V12P was you.

Welcome back once again however short the visit may be. <img src="http://www.aaca.org/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" />

[Packard8]

Well hi Pete,

Sorry you take things so personally, the analogy was to a computer virus?"an entity that infects a computer by deception or disguise with the intent of disrupting the system".... as in ?Pierce66? or whatever your last screen name was before the moderators banned you for the umpteenth time.

With past history being what it is (both here and at the collectorcar.com forums), most of us who are here to share and exchange information on Packards are understandably leery of ?trolls? who make a hobby of arguing purely for the sake of arguing.

If ?1965V12P? is indeed a new member seeking good info on early Packard history, he certainly got some! <img src="http://www.aaca.org/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" />

Cheers,

John

[Guest]

Post deleted by Packard53

[Jay and Pat]

Hi ya gang, it's been a while. I just want to contradict something that Pete said a coupla years ago about the quality of Packards, and here I'll confine my remarks to and about the FRONT END SHAKE of the post war cars. We all understand that to have a good ride you need some flexibility in that area. I think of Ol'Pete every time I drive my new jap car, a Mazda, (not mine really, my wife's)over these newly FOUND roads leading to my new home in the back country of Pennsylvania, when to my great pleasure I can see the hood bouncing all over the place. I take much greater pleasure in driving my '53 Packard over the same roads at the same speeds with not a shimmy or a shake problem in the front as Pete had so adroitly addressed. I question the maintenance of the car he was testing, as mine is very stable, I'm not sure all that extra IRON he says that you see in Buicks and Cadillacs while lying on your back looking up behind the front bumper is necessary. Just a thought. I am now LeRaysville Dude and I approve this message!!!! <img src="http://www.aaca.org/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/smirk.gif" alt="" />

[Jack Harlin]

John, I cant believe that was you comming in the back door. What was your point? I stll am confused what you were looking for. Jack

[WCraigH]

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Quote:</div><div class="ubbcode-body">(snip)...here I'll confine my remarks to and about the FRONT END SHAKE of the post war cars...over these newly FOUND roads leading to my new home in the back country of Pennsylvania, when...I take much greater pleasure in driving my '53 Packard over the same roads at the same speeds with not a shimmy or a shake problem in the front...(snip) </div></div>

Reminds me of a couple of episodes of the "Peking To Paris Rally" shown on History Channel or something like it. Talk about some [color:"red"] NASTY roads! There was even a 1952(?) Packard convertible entered in this rally and shown a few times. I don't know if it finished, but it was shown navigating a shallow river, some washed-out roads, etc.

[Guest]

Post deleted by Packard53

[Guest imported_Speedster]

I agree that prior to the 1929 Depression Many companies were making great design Improvements, (the only way was UP), but of course during and after the Depression things changed greatly. 'Master Engine Builders' may have been just a slogan before the Depression but I think Packard Proved it during and after the Depression. And that's what people remember. <img src="http://www.aaca.org/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/grin.gif" alt="" />

[Guest]

Well maybe so, but sophistication alone doesn't always sell cars or make for a reliable enduring engine. Certainly Duesenbergs were almost in a class by themselves and available only to the super rich, something maybe akin to buying a 2004 Maybach 62, and then some, today. When have you ever seen one of those on the road?. Of the other makes you mentioned all except Cadillac ( part of the GM conglomerate) did not survive the Depression. Packard was the only independent luxury car maker to endure the 1930's and this was largely do in part (besides the 120) to their reputation as a fine quality built car. In fact the 120 outsold it's competition the Lasalle so dramatically because it was a Packard and that reputation of the Senior cars as a fine car ensured it would be successful. My personal experience is that my grandfather who owned a 526 roadster always spoke favourably about Packard and he was a genuine car guy as was my father mentioned in previous posts about this topic.

[John N. Packard]

Packard53,

Except for Cadillac, where are they all now? Nuff said!

jnp

[Guest]

And one more thing. Packard did experiment with all sorts of engine designs including inline 12, OHV and V-8 ( for the 120)but decided that the old straight 8 was quieter as befitting Americas premier luxury car and thus more appealing to its luxury car clientele. I had my old '47 out on the highway today and was easily pacing a Olds Alero at 85MPH. Nuff said.

[Guest]

Post deleted by Packard53

[Guest imported_Speedster]

Packard53, NO ONES Opinion Should be condidered WORTHLESS, Just because they disagree with YOU. <img src="http://www.aaca.org/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/frown.gif" alt="" />

Did you Not take your Happy Pill this morning? <img src="http://www.aaca.org/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/laugh.gif" alt="" />

[Guest bkazmer]

Interesting comparisons between marques. I think it is important to consider reputations and products in the context of their era. Two others to consider - Wills-StClaire and Hispano-Suiza. And I agree than the Marmon 16 is a magnificent engine - a while back Special Interest Autos did a comparo where it clearly out performed a Caddy V16. Remember that the original Caddy V12 and V16 were replaced with the cheaper, simpler flathead V16.

I'd say that Packard's "pedigree" is more like Hisso - the involvement in other areas like aviation benefitted their engines in ways like the early use of aluminum pistons. Packard's reputation to me also rests on attention to detail in the execution. So "master motor builders", yes, but perhaps not the only ones.

[Guest]

I think that what you say is right . The Master Engine Builder title was a self appointed one but certainly with just cause. I don't know of any other American auto manufacturer who was so involved in engine design and manufacturing of engines specific for auto, marine and aircraft engines. These engines were not just marine conversions of auto engines either ( i.e. 4M2500 boat V-12's , radial Diesel, Merlin). The others like Hispano-Suisa, BMW and Mercedes were all also involved in all types of engines and are /were justly master engine builders also. Probably time to put this puppy to bed. <img src="http://www.aaca.org/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" />

[Guest imported_Speedster]

Yes, Some people take these debates TOO Seriously, and get all Emotional. <img src="http://www.aaca.org/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/grin.gif" alt="" />

[Guest imported_Speedster]

The Negative comment I noticed was in one of the Deleted post.

That brings up another question. How do we delete? I entered one twice the other day and was trying to find a way to remove one, but couldn't.

[Guest]

Rick, Click on "edit" one of the options at the bottom of the page is "Delete this post". Click once and then confirm.

[Guest imported_Speedster]

Ah, yes, The OLD Delete Button. There It IS. <img src="http://www.aaca.org/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/grin.gif" alt="" />

Thanks,

[ChicagoPack]

I just commented on his typing in all caps, in essence yelling. Who deleted my post. This is getting a bit censorious if everyone is going around deleting everyone else's posts.