1965 PACKARD V12 FAIR TALE

[Guest]

Brian: I visited the PAC tent at the Hershey on friday as I said I would. When I asked one of the fellows helping run the PAC tent, when they were going to print a retraction of the V12 story. The answer from the fellow was no retraction. When I said the story was rubbish he replied that the Studebaker Club also printed the story. When I made the comment that the pictures where faked the jerk said the following THE PICTURES WEREN'T FAKED WE MEARLY IMPROVED THEM. The way I look at it they wouldn't come out and say the story was true and helped out by improving some fake photos that were given to them for the story. I guess the editors are a bunch of wimps and lack any courage to say they made a mistake by printing the story. The sad part of it to me is that they are unwilling to help expose the fellow whom wrote the fake story. ANY COMMENTS ARE MORE THAN WELCOME BY ANY PAC BOARD MEMBERS. Some how I doubt that will ever happen.

[Guest B.H.]

John -

I don't mean to jump the gun before anyone from PAC responds, but the defense that the Studebaker (Drivers) Club also printed the same story is nothing more than a "cop-out." <span style="font-style: italic">(Ever hear the saying that two wrongs don't make a right?)</span> Funny, the posts about this story at the Stude Newsgroup were far greater in number and much more indignant than here.

Frankly, the published "apologies" by both clubs seemed more geared toward sweeping the issue under the rug - rather than discovering the truth. Perhaps they are more afraid of a lawsuit from the author than loss of members. It reminds me of the former/late editor of "Hemmings" and the general attitude of his response to so many complaints - that as long as they were selling magazines, they were doing the right thing.

In this age of high technology, I can print anything I want on photo quality paper at home and have 35mm negatives or slides made from that by any good lab (suspect some can now even do that direct from a digital file), and then I can then make 'em look old, if need be. <span style="font-style: italic">(Ever hear the story of Frank Abignale?)</span>

So, the club "merely improved" them - gimme a break! What did they do - "clone" portions of modern vehicles and settings to fill in the the gaps? Sounds more like a confession to "aiding and abetting." Yet, many of the same photos appeared in SDC's <span style="font-style: italic">Turning Wheels</span> magazine; it sounds like your contact didn't know what he was talking about.

I think it's more than just a coincidence that this story and those suspect photos never made it to the light of day until so many people who were much more actively involved in Studebaker/SASCO operations had passed away. Over a decade ago, I attended an event in South Bend where Sherwood Egbert's secretary, Martha Fleener (sp?), was a guest of honor and you'd think that she would have know about this "grand plan." I suppose that she and anyone else <span style="font-style: italic">(except the author?)</span> swore an oath to carry that secret to their grave - LOL!

Well, the publication of such nonsense as fact makes you wonder what other "fairy tales" have been printed by clubs - like another club's position that the vacuum pump (separator plate) was source of the V8 oiling problem. Again, I don't think this story would have been published with R.M. Langworth at the helm.

In my humble opinion, I consider this story and photos to be a near-total fabrication, the author to be more of "poser," and the publication to be another example of the declining value of membership in that club. At this point, it would not have surprised me if you found back issues containing that very article displayed for sale at the PAC tent.

[John N. Packard]

John,

I would like to point out that the tent at Hershey is manned by volunteers. The person to whom you spoke probably was not a PAC officer; but a volunteer member. I wouldn't be surprised if some of the volunteers are totally unaware of the article or the issue you raise. If the article is full of false information, why not just accept that and move on? What is to be gained by continuing to attempt to get a retraction or public apology? The credibility of the Cormorant publication will stand or fall based upon the accuracy of what is published in it.

John Packard

[Guest AlK]

To all posters:HAVE WE NOT BEAT THIS HORSE TO DEATH ENOUGH???? Continually harping on it is not going to change the article. I think the guys at PAC are going to be a bit more diligent about what they print. O.K. They made a mistake, MEA CULPA, MEA MAIXIMA CULPA!! Now let's move on to other things that make a difference, and put this in the past. Let's not forget it totally but let's not be consumed by it either. MOVE ON.

[Guest]

John: First of all let me asure you that the person I talked about the article was quite familiar with the article. When question by me about it he is the one whom came forward with the statements quoted by me. In the last year or so I haven't realy brought up the subject or commented on it except for now. When I brought up this matter lasst summer two high members of two clubs tried to shutt me up by trying to get a third party to intervine in the matter. Brain asked me a question so I answered it here in the forum.

[Guest]

AlK; Let me first say that I am not being consumed by anything. When Packard V8 kept reviving the old thread I never once read any statements from you that the matter should be dropped. So why now do you complain? As I pointed to Mr. Packard Brian asked me a question so I answered it by starting a new thread. If you don't like the subject matter pay no attention to it.

[Guest B.H.]

John (Packard53) -

I thank you for answering my question, and - though others may disagree - I am glad you brought it up. Yet, I am sorry if my question brought any grief your way.

However, I know I am not alone in saying that I don't like when stuff like this gets swept under the rug unresolved. Worse yet, I heard the author of the article was supposed to have been a guest speaker at an Avanti club national meet this year. (Hard to imagine what kind of yarn-spinning is going on now.)

It would have been fine if this article had been published as a "what-if" (as had been done previously by other editors/writers) - might have been entertaining reading. However, left as it is, years from now, this false information will likely be construed as <span style="font-style: italic">bona fide</span> history by newcomers.

[Guest imported_PackardV8]

BH wrote:

"Worse yet, I heard the author of the article was supposed to have been a guest speaker at an Avanti club national meet this year."

YES, and yesterday i was told by a club member that the author had made the 1965 Packard V12 presentation to the club board members.

BH also wrote:

"(Hard to imagine what kind of yarn-spinning is going on now.)"

YES, this is precisely WHY this issue should NOT be forgotten. READ CLOSELY the issue where it indicates more to come about the 'van that so impressed Mr Eggbert' THEY WERE NOT GOING TO STOP. The only reason it did stop is because there were enuf people with enuf balls to rag them about it.

CREDIBITILTY maybe ??????

Move on??????????? Move on to what, "a 1965 V12 van that so impressed Mr Eggbert" ?????

[Guest AlK]

I think if you go back to the original thread from last year, you will find a post or two from me. I have watched over the last year as supposedly inteligent people have come literally, unglued on this matter. No I am not trying to shut anyone up, if you want to rant and rave over it fine, but eventually you are going to be talking to yourself. As to "moving on to what???" How about movng on to changing the PAC judging system to something that does not resemble a pebble beach concourse, how about chiding vendors for charging prices that would bankrupt King Midas, How about setting general PAC shows in your given areas to entice people to join and set up regions in those areas. These are worthwhile pursuits that move forward with new people and new ideas.Again PAC made a mistake, are you going to hound them into the next millenium for it, They have been taken to task and I do not think something like this would ever happen again. As for the article itself, I read it, found it interesting and provacative. Did I beleive it, not for one minute. Did I worry about it being a hoax, not for another minute, Do I want the PAC board members heads on a platter (as you seem to want), not for a third minute, there are more important thing to worry about. So at this point I am going to practice what I preach, I have proffered my opinion, as you have and I am signing off of this thread. You will not EVER read another word from me on this subject. To many words have been devoted to it already and I refuse to add another syllable to it. If you choose to continue to waste your time on it, it's a free country!!!!!!!!!!

[Guest B.H.]

Excellent points, PackardV8!

While I've heard that "poser" actually worked for Studebaker from '59-'63 and did some product design work, it involved "pieces" - not entire vehicles (let alone marketing plans) and NOT Packard. Yet, I also heard that the guy cannot be reasoned with when challenged on this story - has a congenial "answer" for everything.

Again, there was much more of an outcry on the Stude Newsgroup (with new postings as recently as this past summer), but I never heard of any retraction published by the SDC either.

Still, I find PAC's position on this to be a bit <span style="font-style: italic">cavalier</span>.

[Guest imported_PackardV8]

BOTTOM LINE: The 1965 V12 fiasco is a question of CREDIBILITY and the responsible parties should at least recognize EMBARASSMENT about it.

Since they are obviously NOT embarassed, that demonstrates a heart that is harder than the front seat of hell and a propensity to try something like that again.

[Guest imported_PackardV8]

I suppose i have no more remarks to make about this issue. HOWEVER i will continue to resurrect the related threads to the top of this list from time to time with a dummy post just to keep it in plain view until which point some CONSPICUOUS admission of embarassment is made. THATS what i would have to do if it fell on my shoulders.

[Guest B.H.]

To be fair, someone from PAC <span style="font-style: italic">did</span> reply to Packard53's open letter and admitted "something."

However, what I have been looking for is the publication of findings from any active investigation (not just some passive request for information/evidence from the membership at large) and a retracion of that story as being fact. I don't recall anyone asking for anyone's head or the dissolution of any organization - just the truth and nothing but the whole truth.

Personally, I don't believe they bothered to dig much deeper into the matter (let alone authenticate the story prior to publication), but it is clear from Packard53's recent encounter that there is no intent of retracting anything.

Sadly, those are not signs of integrity.

Thankfully, such rubbish never made it into the Kimes' <span style="font-style: italic">History...</span> or Ward's excellent book.

If I hear of any new developments, I'll be sure to post them for the benefit of anyone who truly cares, but that's all for now.

[Guest]

Brian: You are right someone from PAC did reply to my open letter. However this only happened after I sent some frank email to some people like Katz, then one fellow did come in and take some heat for the article. I think that if I wouldn't have done this there would have been no responce from anyone at PAC. However there where things going on in the background to try to stop me from compalining any more about the article. The was preasure being applied to WEB MASTER of the AACA site, whom sent me an email reqesting that I drop the matter. My motives where not to have any heads roll at PAC but just to get the artivcle retracted. I am certain there will be no sresponce from any PAC board members. There are PAC board members whom come and view this forum on regular basis, Correct if I am wrong STEWART B. Brian I was wondering if you could scan the article for me and send to me in jpeg form a couple of pages at a time as to not flood my email box.

[Guest imported_PackardV8]

Packard53 wrote:

"However there where things going on in the background to try to stop me from compalining any more about the article. The was preasure being applied to WEB MASTER of the AACA site, whom sent me an email reqesting that I drop the matter"

OH. Well now. Just wait a minute. Maybe i will have more to say about this after all. WHAT gives anyone at any of the Packard relatd clubs the idea that they have the authority to tell anyone else what they can discuss or not discuss about Packards or any thing openly PUBLISHED about Packards????? Its not like we are on their payroll or something.

Maybe dropping this matter is not such a good idea after all.

[6219_Rules]

As with all things in this world, there may be more behind the scenes than anyone can know. If the Webmaster (aka senior administrator) asked the subject to be dropped, he probably had a compelling reason for it. I do not know, nor can I imagine why anyone would care that much but it happens all the time. Personally, I see this as nothing more than the PAC's chickens coming home to roost.

"Oh what a tangled web we weave when we practice to deceive." Nez pas?

[Guest imported_PackardV8]

Several years ago PRIOR to using the AACA DF we were using the (now defunct???) Classic Car forum. There was a time in that forum where one of the Packard 'clubs' or maybe it was one of the vendors came in wanting to stop certain CIVIL conversations going on about a subject matter. The person trying to stop it CLAIMED to own or authorize that particular websites forum. He was quickly corrected by the REAL moderator/owner. IN FACT that was the first time we had ever heard from the true moderator at that site.

[Guest B.H.]

Packard53 -

I tip my hat to you for challenging authority; just because someone has "authority" doesn't mean that they are always right.

While Mr. Juneau deserves some credit for apologizing here, last year, I am disappointed that there has been no substantive follow through by the publishers of that "fairy tale." In fact, I found it incredible that he suggested (in the 08/11/02 11:09PM post in the "OPEN LETTER" thread) that "we" should pursue the author, but I wanted to give them time to do the honorable thing.

Now, I see nothing wrong with an AACA webmaster <span style="font-style: italic">requesting</span> that you "drop" the subject in an AACA forum. After all it was only a "request," and the webmaster was only acting as messenger, trying to keep some peace. However, if someone from PAC asked the AACA webmaster to "shut you up" simply because you took (reasonable) issue with the club, I feel that they overstepped their bounds.

While I've been a member of PAC for years, I consider myself to be merely a subscriber to their periodicals. As a Packard owner, I frequent this particular forum because the Packard club simply doesn't offer enough of what I am looking for to enjoy my Packards. Though we have never had a specific Packard moderator here in this forum (and I see no need for one), I think we do an excellent job of policing ourselves.

As regards scanning the article, I keep back issues of TPC and have a scanner, but full-page hi-rez scans seem to cause my tired old laptop to hang up. However, given what we have seen of the attitude toward "sharing" images from that club's website, I am more concerned that copying and distributing the article for whatever reason would open us to a violation of copyright law.

[Guest cnbed]

To Packard53 - You should know that my name is spelled STUART, not STEWART. Just check the past 15 years worth of the "CNB" or the PAC web-site. By the way, what is YOUR name? I am not afraid to stand up and let people know who I am... why are you? (Just asking. If you prefer not to become known in public, send me a private e-mail.)

Who did you speak to on Friday at the PAC Hershey booth? I was at the booth for most of the time from Wednesday afternoon until we closed up on Saturday, and NOBODY discussed the V-12 article with anyone while I was there. Now, for a good portion of Friday afternoon I was on the Chocolate Field, so you may have missed me.

The bottom line is that a mistake was made in accepting the article without checking it out first, and without anyone in the club seeing any of the photos, as did the Studebaker Driver's Club. (PAC was between editors at the exact time that the article was sent in, so the usual chain-of-command was not followed. This will not happen again.) Note that SDC published this fellow's articles multiple times.

Please note that this matter has and is being discussed - behind the scenes - and will be addressed - in full - in a future issue of "TPC."

[Guest imported_PackardV8]

<img src="http://www.aaca.org/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/wink.gif" alt="" />

[Guest imported_PackardV8]

Randall! did u know something before we did????? <img src="http://www.aaca.org/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/grin.gif" alt="" />

[6219_Rules]

Nope! It just seemed to be logical. It has been an interesting read though. I follow the Packard forum almost as readily as the AACA and CCCAs'. I can understand the roth this raised, and why it happened. It will be interesting to see what else develops or if more high level complaints will be filed.

And remember....I'm psycho...uh...psychic. <img src="http://www.aaca.org/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/laugh.gif" alt="" />

[Guest]

Stuart. Every one else in the forum also knows me by real name John F. Shireman in Jersey Shore, Penna. You migth not remember me but 11 years ago you visited Brady Berry and viewed his Packards. You came up to my house along with Brad and your wife for some refreshements. You bought Brads 53 at auction for the owners of the firm you work for. Now to answer the question of whom I talked to. I never asked the man his name as I was dam mad at for his answers to my questions. The man was probably around 65 with grey hair about 5ft 8in about 150lbs and wore silver rimmed glasses. He claimed to me that he worked for Studebaker at one time. I think that he was wearing a grey shirt at the time. I was at the PAC tent between 11;00 AM and noon. While the matter maybe being discussed behind the scenes maybe ok, but this is my problem with you people. That trash was printed better than a year ago and it doesn't take that long to print a retraction, and expose the author for the for what he is.

[Guest B.H.]

Stuart,

With regard to the bottom line, that the SDC had published a series of articles over the years that gave this "poser" enough status as a "trusted" source should not be an excuse, but certainly underscores our stated concerns for this kind of thing to keep snowballing.

With all due respect, regardless of whether whoever was in charge of publishing <span style="font-style: italic">TPC</span> (at the time) merely accepted that as <span style="font-style: italic">de facto</span> credibility, and that the unreviewed photos are obviously "doctored," the tale alone should have raised eyebrows with anyone familiar with S-P history. While there may yet be undiscovered tales to be told, the totality of this story lacks any credible evidence to anyone reasonably familiar with what was going on with Studebaker in the time frame of its setting.

The fact is, except for a couple of good years, Studebaker was struggling during the sixties. Frankly, I've heard more stories that the big decision each year was whether or not to even <span style="font-style: italic">stay</span> in the automotive business. Though not to digress, anyone familar with the Studebaker Avanti knows that it was intended to be a 1962 model, but due to development and production issues, it was introduced in mid-1962 as a 1963 model - further evidence of struggling.

Yet, how many people know that a version of the Avanti with a removable roof was considered? It's true. The treatment was similar to a later Corvette with T-tops, but would have been one piece instead of two. Not only are there are published sketches (though quite rough) to support this, there were even engineering drawings of every piece of required attaching hardware and notations on drawings for other existing structural components. I know this because I stumbled upon copies in Youngstown (though nothing regarding the roof panel itself). Though I don't have any evidence on hand now to support my claim of this example, one could probably find it, in reasonable time, from the archives of the Studebaker National Museum (if not, I have a good idea where the copies went).

However, in another example, let's suppose that such present archives never existed and that the Predictor was nowhere to be found and no publicity photos of the show car had ever surfaced (just indulge me on this). You could still authenticate that one car's development - at least in part - thanks to an original rendering and scale styling model that is in the hands of the Henry Ford Museum in Dearborn (and perhaps you already know the <span style="font-style: italic">full</span> story behind that one).

Well, the fact is that a lot of the company history <span style="font-style: italic">did</span> survive (more than the casual enthusiast realizes), and my point is that, even though everyone else who may have been personally involved in that time frame may be long gone, there surely would have been more evidence than just one person's account and a handful of "photos" to support the tale of such a revival.

Yes, somebody jumped the gun on going to press with this one, but that wasn't the case with the well-researched and -documented article on the "monobloc." Yet, I think that article would have been just as well done even if it hadn't been published in the long, dark shadow of the subject "fairy tale."

In all fairness, I (again) seem to recall hearing something about the possiblity of Packard's revival long ago - beyond the legend that the name was briefly considered (as was "Pierce-Arrow") for what became the Avanti. Yet, what I heard was nothing anywhere near as grandiose as the subject story. In my humble opinion, I suspect it was probably nothing more than a thought voiced at a meeting that perhaps fueled a later presentation of a rough outline - all that cut short by Studebaker's impending demise. That company had bigger fish to fry.

Now, I am glad to hear PAC "won't get fooled again," but it is taking an awfully long time to present any findings of fact on this. I just heard back from my old Studebaker friend (a long-time enthusiast), and even he now doubts there will be any retraction from SDC - even though they requested the author to provide addtional documentation last year. Know that I look forward to the final word on this being published - hoping it will not only bear out, but allay our concerns once and for all.

Sorry to be so long-winded in this unsolicited reply, but there were several points just begging to be made.

[Guest cnbed]

Brian - Thanks for your comments; well-made as always.

John - I well remember you and your kindness in arranging our visit to Brad Berry's dealership. In fact, I wrote an article about it for "TPC" which I hope to see published in the not-too-distant future.

You should know that there are dozens of articles in preparation for "TPC," and more often than not they take =years= before they are published. Rest assured, the truth will be told.

[Guest]

Stuart: Your answer that it may take years for the truth to come out because of dozens of articles waiting to be published in TPC is a dang lame excuse. When rubbish like that is published an turns out to be not true, the author and story should be exposed as soon as possible. If I see no retraction between now and July of 2004 when I come to Toronto. I will pursue the matter thier with PAC officals in a very strong manner. <img src="http://www.aaca.org/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/mad.gif" alt="" /> <img src="http://www.aaca.org/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/mad.gif" alt="" /> <img src="http://www.aaca.org/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/mad.gif" alt="" /> <img src="http://www.aaca.org/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/mad.gif" alt="" />

[Guest B.H.]

To those who are interested:

I am back to report that some of my worst fears have been realized.

I found a thread on the Studebaker NewsGroup that SDC's <span style="font-weight: bold"><span style="font-style: italic">Turning Wheels</span></span> has published another article from this same author. Though I have not read the article, accounts seem to indicate that it is a retrospective piece on some sort of a custom-built Studebaker, but it sounds like the author made another wrong turn down Memory Lane (on the way to the <span style="font-style: italic">Twilight Zone</span>?).

One poster reports that (regarding this particular story) the editor advised that:

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Quote:</div><div class="ubbcode-body">"the club has the originals and negatives of these photos in their possession this time."</div></div>

Yet, there have already been questions about the photos - one claiming that an engine bay shot is not from the same car as shown in the other (exterior?) views.

Again, I must caution that modern technology (even aided by some old-fashioned darkroom tricks) allows authentic-looking negatives and prints to be made from digital (whether original or enhanced) images. Heck, the new $20 bill wasn't even in circulation a couple of weeks when counterfeits started turning up.

Among other things, another poster mentions that the author claims to have gotten:

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Quote:</div><div class="ubbcode-body">"a new Mercedes company car every 1200 miles...was on the Mercedes payroll."</div></div>

That poster closes with a feeling that:

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Quote:</div><div class="ubbcode-body">"future issues of TW will give us the real lowdown on Studes & McKeehan's roles in the death of JFK. TW is losing credibility fast."</div></div>

Personally, I find the bit about a new co. car every 1200 miles to be laughable, but the closing comments are pearls of wisdom.

Though there have been only a handful of posts at the NG on this, to date, one of the most poignant comments asks the burning question:

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Quote:</div><div class="ubbcode-body"> "why publish another piece when we haven't resolved the first issue to satisfaction?"</div></div>

Well, I certainly hope that PAC learns something from this and never publishes another word from the subject author - except to reveal the truth regarding this Packard revival fairy tale. In my humble opinion, if the gentelman truly has any <span style="font-style: italic">bona fide</span> factory experience of any value, it appears to be drowning in a sea of lies - not worth saving.

I am just glad this guy never worked in Detroit.

(Layout/format of post edited on 11-29-2003 to improve clarity.)

[55PackardGuy]

Brian,

Your recent post brought this thread to my attention so I read the whole darn thing, as a complement to the "1965 Packard V-12 Prototypes" thread. This stuff is fascinating! Thanks for bringing it back to the top of the list. I can't really comment much on the controversy, except to affirm that one of the key questions in later years at Packard was whether the company would continue in the car business at all. This is mentioned in the Kimes book, and I will continue to stick with my story that there isn't much "history" worth knowing that isn't in there. And possibly the Ward book, which has also been recommended here (but I have yet to get a copy). Let's just make sure that killing bogus rumors is the focus, rather than perpetuating them, as in broader distribution or electronic reproducions of the articles in question.

[Guest]

Brian: Thanks for the heads up about the article in Free Wheeling. If the editors of Free Wheeling printed another article written by this fellow ( THEY HAVE TO BIGGER JACK ASS'S THAN THE PEOPLE FROM PAC THAT PRINTED THE 1965 V12 ARTICLE). For all the good it will do the editors of Free Wheeling are getting a very blunt and clear emanil as to what I think of anything that this fool writes.

[Guest B.H.]

Guy -

If you enjoyed this thread, you should see what the published story in question can do to one's eyebrow - LOL!

Seriously, many interesting topics (and not just technical matters) have been posted in this Packard discussion forum. I don't promote any of it as "publication-grade," but this generally open-minded, tribal exchange has drawn forth a lot of good and entertaining info. Trying to read all the past posts would be like asking you to eat an elephant, but try a few small bites as time permits - a good "rainy day" diversion.

Now, the key question that you cite for Packard is exactly the same one that dogged Studebaker into the 1960s - and they dropped "Packard" from their official corporate name after 1962, as best I recall.

Frankly, much more enjoyable accounts from "inside the bunker" have been published in <span style="font-style: italic">The Packard Cormorant</span> - namely, those penned by Ed Cunningham, who (as one of the younger memebrs of their staff) worked on interior styling at Packard in Detroit during the '50s. I especially enjoyed one anecdote on naming a new leather finish that involved a process called "spanishing." Basically, it amounted to "antiquing" a deep-grained, white leather, and Ed came up with the regal-sounding "Phartedon White" - though there's a bit more to the tale. Now, even if that's something of a "fishing story," it's not controversial stuff that involves taking credit for strategic initiatives that never materialized and vehicles that never existed and documenting it with fake photos.

Well, you might be intertested to know that I heard the Ward book was so highly thought of by the academic community that it was required reading for some business clases (though I don't know where that was) - perhaps explaining why it was later published in soft cover format. I did see that title listed on Amazon.com some time ago, but haven't looked lately because I've had my hardback edition since it was released several years ago.

[Guest B.H.]

Packard53 -

Just to clarify, the title of that magazine is "Turning Wheels" - published monthly by the Studebaker Drivers Club (SDC).

For some reason, I'm thinking "Free Wheeling" was the name of some sort of magazine for truck drivers back in the '70s. If so, I hope you this catch before you upset a bunch of truck drivers with big H-D tire irons! <img src="http://www.aaca.org/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/grin.gif" alt="" />

Knowing your broad range of interests in automotive history (from your posts here and other sites past), I'd like to suggest that before completely calling the SDC on the carpet about this, see if they will forward a clear copy of the article for your personal inspection.

Meanwhile, I'll be offline for a few days due to the holiday, but I look forward to checking back on this one come the weekend.

[Guest JT]

Guy, while the Kimes book is a really great work you might want to join both the Packard clubs to get even more perspective on Packard through the club publications (other than the 65 V12 piece <img src="http://www.aaca.org/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/grin.gif" alt="" />). Recently their was an article in The Packard Cormorant that dealt with the long controversial straight or monoblock 12 engine. It was nice after all these years to see some solid proof that indeed it did exist.

Another controversy (also discussed on this forum) you'll find out there is the one about the Packard dies being sent to Russia after WWII.

As to why Packard went under I would say after reading the Kimes book, the Ward book and many articles it becomes apparent that the reasons were many and took place over a long period. It would be very hard to pin the failure on one or two reasons.

[55PackardGuy]

JT, Brian, et al,

I realize there are lots of good sources out there, but I paid like $75 for the Kimes book (it was a present for my father, who probably read the whole thing) and I just have to be loyal to my investment! Seriously, I've studied the sections on 1955 and 1956 closely, and I'm impressed with their thoroughness. But I'm definitely open to other sources. I'll look for the Ward book, which sounds great. Also, if youse guys want to send me some copies of articles or a list of the issues that the best ones appear in, that would be helpful. (Just send me a private e-mail and I'll send you my address. Or maybe post a list of magazines and issues? Whatever is easiest.)

I'm really happy to see that others are as interested in car history, particularly Packard, as I am. And heck, if it comes to some passionate exchanges once in a while, that's okay with me (just nothing personal). I don't even know the name of this fellow who apparently sold off some pipe dreams as fact. I wonder how I could find a way to get paid for the Packard fantasies I've dreamt about over the years?? If you've read some of my other posts, you know I like to think out loud. Feel free to rein me in whenever you deem necessary. Now, how about a Packard v-12 Marine or Merlin engine in a beefed up TL chassis with custom body and a top end around 300 MPH? NOTE: THIS IS JUST A WHAT-IF SPECULATION!!!

Besides Craig's Panther Project, is anything going on out there in customizing land that we should know about? I'd love to read about any efforts.

[WCraigH]

Guy: re Packard involvement with V-12s

There's a thread in the archives with some interesting info about (maybe not) all V-12s that Packard either produced or had something to do with. That's a thread worth reading, even if it's not raining! <img src="http://www.aaca.org/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/grin.gif" alt="" />

[Guest]

55 Packard Guy: In the Kimes book on the history of Packard does it state that Packard introduced the first automotive V12 engine, like alot of other automotive hsitorians do. From the research that I have been able to do Packard may have not been the first to do so.

[55PackardGuy]

John,

According to the Kimes book, the Packard Twin Six was introduced on May 1st, 1915. It created a huge splash, as the car not only had twice the cylinders, it was actually lower priced than the six. The book goes on to say that the press announcement probably preceded actual deliveries to dealers, and that next-year models were introduced up to 9 months early, so the new cars were actually 1916 models. It says that sometimes First Series Twin Sixes have been referred to as 1915 models, but that this is an error. I found nothing in the book that states unequivocally that these 1916 Packard Twin Sixes were the first regular production automobiles to have a v-12 engine configuration, but it is certainly inferred by the amount of public curiosity they evoked.

In short, if you can find a production automobile with a standard v-12 engine that was on the road before May 1, 1915, you might have a case for Packard not being the first.

I've read suggestions in this forum that v-12 engines have questionable practical application because of excessive weight and size. It's interesting to note that the Packard Twin Six was 400 pounds lighter than the six, and much shorter in length! Jesse Vincent wrote that the reason he supported going from six to twelve cylinders instead of increasing by increments of two was that the six cylinder configuration is "theoretically in absolutely perfect balance... because the vibratory forces due to the rise and fall of one piston are neutralized by equal and opposite forces due to another. The pistons form what mathematicians call a 'system of bodies'..." He felt that increasing size in multiples of six would "...obtain the advantages of the small bore, high efficiency multi-cylinder motor without inheriting any disadvantages." [such as high-speed vibration in an eight-cylinder configuration.]

Of course, modern engine designs incorporate balancing systems that make various configurations more viable, but it is interesting that, early on, engines with multiples of six cylinders were found to have some inherent advantages.

[Guest]

GUY: The National Automobile Company of Indianapolis Indiana in May of 1915 ,at the same time as Packard introduced it's Twin Six, National introduced the Highway 12. This V12 engine was produced only a short time from 1915 till 1919. There were a couple of other automobile firms in the late teens that also built V12 engines. While at Hershey last I went to the AACA Library and obtain information and some sales lit on the National Highway V12.

[55PackardGuy]

John,

It would be interesting to find out exactly when the National Highway Twelve was put on the road, and what kind of numbers were produced. The Twin Six certainly had a lot of promotional boost and was available in big quantities, but that doesn't necessarily make it the first v-12 passenger car on the road. If we take Packard at its word on an introduction date of May 1, 1915, and National claims an introduction in May 1915 (not specifying a date)it sounds like a possible draw, with the benefit of the doubt going to Packard, since National's claim to a May introduction can't be any earlier than the first of the month.

[Guest]

Brian: I would like to have your email address contact me at Packard53@evenlink.com. There are somethings that happened this week about the article in Free Wheeling and the author of the article. I would like to talk over some things via email.

[Guest imported_PackardV8]

OH come on. Just tell the rest of us too. <img src="http://www.aaca.org/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/shocked.gif" alt="" />