So close, but ignition problems

[Sparkydave]

Making progress on dad's car.  Got the old, stale gas out of the gas tank, and with the new starter solenoid and clean battery cables, the starter is working much better.  Started checking out the ignition, and found things are not well.  No contact from either set of points.  I took off the ignition coil, and found another problem.  One of the brushes is gone.  Please tell me that those are replaceable.  I tried pulling gently on the one still there, and it doesn't seem to want to come out.  Unfortunately, it looks like the other one broke off, so the spring is still up in there.

 

Next question, I talked to dad, and he seemed to think the points were accessible after pulling the caps off.  I beg to differ, I can barely see them.  I don't see how you would get in there to clean them or set the gap without removing the distributor.  Does the distributor have to come off?  For all I know, the broken brush is sitting in the bottom of it.  Dad says it's kind of a pain to get the distributor lined up going back in, but from I'm finding online, the drive key is offset so you won't accidentally put it in 180 degrees off.  Looks like it's just 3 bolts and an oil line.

[Ray500]

You need to send that coil and distributor to Skip Haney in Florida for rebuilding if you want to get it running again!   Looks like you're missing one of the carbon contacts.  The distributor needs rebuilding along with the coil to get it running.  You need a distributor tester to set it up also.   You probably should replace the spark plug wires too as they do deteriorate over time and of course new spark plugs!   It should run after that.  Skip also rebuilds your water pumps if they need it.  

[Sparkydave]

Anyone know what the trick is for getting the brushes out of the coil?  I tried tugging gently on the remaining one, but it's not coming out.

[Lee H]

20 hours ago, Sparkydave said:

Next question, I talked to dad, and he seemed to think the points were accessible after pulling the caps off.  I beg to differ, I can barely see them.  I don't see how you would get in there to clean them or set the gap without removing the distributor.  Does the distributor have to come off?  For all I know, the broken brush is sitting in the bottom of it.  Dad says it's kind of a pain to get the distributor lined up going back in, but from I'm finding online, the drive key is offset so you won't accidentally put it in 180 degrees off.  Looks like it's just 3 bolts and an oil line.

Just FYI, you do need to remove the distributor to make any points adjustments. While it is more accurate to have your distributor done by a professional, it isn’t mandatory. When I first got my ‘41, I used the method that Motor’s included in their service manuals for many years. Surprisingly good if you take your time. Reprinted below. I eventually got a KR Wilson jig one year at Hershey.

 

Thats not an oil line, it’s the vacuum brake (limits how quickly the centrifugal advance comes in). And I found that the engine compression is so low that even with regular unleaded, you can back it off entirely and not suffer any pinging.

 

I also sent my coil off to Skip (reduced output when hot) but had somewhat mixed results. If the coil primaries aren’t open, and it isn’t breaking down under heat, there’s no reason to. The carbons are just a friction fit in the springs. If you find the missing carbon, just push in and twist. Picture attached. Good luck.

Edited June 10 by Lee H (see edit history)

[Sparkydave]

Many thanks!  The carbon broke off at the wide part, and what's still attached to the spring is now recessed in there.  I'll have to look again at the one that's still good, but I looked in the boxes of spare parts that I got from dad, and found a spare brush and spring.  The one that's still good seems to be pretty firmly attached to the spring, unlike the spare I found.  The manual excerpt is very useful too, because in addition to the spare brush, I found two sets of points, still new in the box.  That was what I was starting to get into when I discovered the missing brush.

[George Toth]

You have one of the contacts missing,there is a spring in hole, look with flash light, first the coil is two coils, and one of the coil contact is missing,it looks like the one in back which is 1-6 cylinders, and the front one is 7-12 cylinders, it's two distributors in one,and contact from a early V8 flathead coil,take out the contact with spring and put it in your coil,the engine is still ford, and make sure the capacitors contacts are clean and tight,one capacitor for left side and one for right side,and take the capacitors measurements in ficards, .400-.500 microficards like a funny uf, if you have those readings ,the capacitors are good with about.016" for  the points,see if that works,if not let me know and I will help you set both points, there's a small screw on left side with a cover, don't touch it,just do the first part,and a little 45° screwdriver will help adjust the points, try this first,you can do it,my name is George Toth 

[George Toth]

I see someone send the timing with 2 -6" rulers,and that's how it was done, but just check points and capacitors first, and you have replaced sparkplugs and get a roll of distributor wire and make new wires,the old ones were clothes covered,so pull out the old wire,and replace the wire, after you get it running,just run the new wires outside of the the wire tubes, and ohm out coil,there is a left side coil and right side coil,and old Craftsman screw with a 45° on both ends, you can pick one up for $10.00 on ebay, I will help you get it running, I have parts if you need them,ask your dad,the car did run, nothing broke in engine and that's why it was put up,spray some WD-40 ,keoil, any lubricant and turn engine over and make sure,the distributor has a offset, so you just line it up,and put it on,it goes on one-way,get it started first,then I will tell you how the vacuum works on this distributor,it a vaccum brake, a little different from vaccum advance on later distributor,is it still 6v?

[Sparkydave]

Argh, it seems so close.  I put a spare brush in to replace the one that had snapped off, and cleaned up the points.  I checked the gap and they came in at 0.015".  Last night I put my spark tester inline with #1 and #2, and it lit up to show I had spark on both banks.  Tonight I tried starting it off a jerry can, and it got close enough to cough a couple times, but now I've got nothing.  The points are closing, the voltages on the coil primaries are jumping between 3 volts and 6 volts, but my spark tester isn't lighting up on either bank now.  The condensers are reading 1 uF, but they aren't showing leakage.  What the heck?  The points on the distributor caps don't look all that clean, maybe they need to be polished up a little, but I'm scratching my head now.  I took the coil off again and the brushes were still in place. 

 

Oh, the spare points I found were not for the Lincoln.  When I looked closer at the packaging I realized they said Honda.  No, these are for the 1972 Honda CL100 that dad also gave me, so I put those in with the spare parts for that.  Maybe it's time to to place an order with Boos-Herrel to get some new brushes, new condensers, and some new points.  Probably a rebuild kit for the carburetor too.

[Sparkydave]

Starting to get a little stumped here.  Had spark on both banks, now I've got no spark.  Points are opening and closing on both banks, but whatever spark it's generating is not getting out of the distributor, there is no spark on any of the 12 spark plugs.  The ignition wires have already been replaced.

 

What's a good, safe way of checking the coil?  Would it be better to take the coil out and connect the spark tester to the coil brush, or take the distributor out, connect power through a resistor, and turn it by hand to see if it's getting spark to the rotor?

 

 

[edinmass]

Here is how you test the coils. Also, check coil ground connections. I tested an identical oil to yours just last week.

 

 

 

[Sparkydave]

Thanks, but what if you don't have one of those testers?  How did you connect to the secondary?  Do you take the brush and spring out first?  I'm leaning toward taking the distributor out and turning it by hand.  I'm pretty sure I remember seeing a couple of distributor caps among the spare parts I got from my dad, so if I put one cap on, connect my spark tester to the terminal, then turn it by hand I should be able to see what's going on inside.  I have a bad feeling either the coil has broken down and it's discharging internally, or there's a leaky path through the rotor.

[Sparkydave]

@edinmass How would I test my coil if I had one of those antique testers?

[edinmass]

 

An actual load test is the only PROPER way to test it. A meeter can't simulate a load, or the heat causing windings to short.........no free lunch. you need the equipment. 

[Lee H]

Dave, my experience with V-12 coils suggests that poor and marginal coils (but where the primaries still have electrical continuity) will work OK until they heat up. It’s a very common problem with almost all original coils. 
 

If you suddenly have no spark from both coils, I’d be looking elsewhere to solve a no-start condition.

 

I convinced myself that I had bad coils after heat-up by using a cheap “load tester”. It is basically a tool where you can adjust the gap (just like on the tool Ed posted) and see what your spark voltage is. It is used on one of the plug wires, and it allows you to see what your max voltage is, and then how it may drop or become erratic as it heats up.

 

i know this doesn’t help much if you can’t get it started, but it does allow you to see if you have any spark at all…it beats the cowboy way of holding the wire in your hand and waiting to get shocked.

 

 

[Sparkydave]

4 hours ago, edinmass said:

 

An actual load test is the only PROPER way to test it. A meeter can't simulate a load, or the heat causing windings to short.........no free lunch. you need the equipment. 

You posted a video showing this antique tester, and you say that's the way to test it.

 

The video does not show testing a Lincoln V-12 coil, which has the carbon brushes instead of the more typical coil style shown in the video.

 

My question was, how would you test a Lincoln V-12 coil even if I could get my hands on one of those antique testers?  You say you tested one identical to mine, but how?

 

Never said I was using a meter to test the secondary, so your response doesn't make a lot of sense.  I have an adjustable spark gap tester for testing a coil, but along the lines of using the tester in the video you posted, how would you connect a load tester to the secondary?

Edited June 25 by Sparkydave (see edit history)

[Sparkydave]

1 hour ago, Lee H said:

Dave, my experience with V-12 coils suggests that poor and marginal coils (but where the primaries still have electrical continuity) will work OK until they heat up. It’s a very common problem with almost all original coils. 
 

If you suddenly have no spark from both coils, I’d be looking elsewhere to solve a no-start condition.

 

I convinced myself that I had bad coils after heat-up by using a cheap “load tester”. It is basically a tool where you can adjust the gap (just like on the tool Ed posted) and see what your spark voltage is. It is used on one of the plug wires, and it allows you to see what your max voltage is, and then how it may drop or become erratic as it heats up.

 

i know this doesn’t help much if you can’t get it started, but it does allow you to see if you have any spark at all…it beats the cowboy way of holding the wire in your hand and waiting to get shocked.

 

 

Thanks, I have an adjustable tester similar to that, and I have a neon lamp tester that goes inline with the spark plug.  The neon lamp tester was lighting up for both banks, but not anymore.  Nothing on the adjustable tester either.  The trouble I'm having is what's a good way to determine if the coil is developing a spark at all?  It's not a matter of it stops after heating up, I have no spark at all on any of the 12 cylinders even when it's stone cold, but I can confirm the points are opening and closing.

[Ray500]

Once again I highly recommend you send your distributor and coil to Skip Haney in Florida as he will rebuild the coil with new wire since you can't buy any new ones!  And any old ones you find will probably need rewinding too!   He will provide new brushes and springs too. Then he will repair/calibrate the distributor and with new capacitors you'll be back in business.  You might need new spark plug wiring, that needs to be verified.  I would replace them anyway as they can crack in the conduits and leak sparks!   Spark plugs are a good thing to replace every so often too!  This isn't very expensive but it's the best way to get back on the road!   You can find Skip's contact information on the LZOC website if you don't have it.  Skip also does a great job on the water pumps if you then them!  

[Lee H]

13 hours ago, Sparkydave said:

The trouble I'm having is what's a good way to determine if the coil is developing a spark at all?  It's not a matter of it stops after heating up, I have no spark at all on any of the 12 cylinders even when it's stone cold, but I can confirm the points are opening and closing.

With the coil off the car, put an ohmmeter between the screw terminals on top, and the heavy springs on the bottom. That’s the coil primary, and should be in the 1 ohm neighborhood. If you then move one of the ohmmeter leads to the carbon, you should get a reading of several thousand ohms…that’s the secondary. If you instantaneously connect a 6 volt (12v battery is fine for testing) battery between the screw terminals and the heavy springs, there should should be a high voltage spark at the carbon which you can feel with your fingers when the circuit is broken.

 

But I really think there is another reason you’re suddenly not getting any spark. Is there voltage at the primary coil terminals when you are cranking?

[Sparkydave]

1 hour ago, Lee H said:

With the coil off the car, put an ohmmeter between the screw terminals on top, and the heavy springs on the bottom. That’s the coil primary, and should be in the 1 ohm neighborhood. If you then move one of the ohmmeter leads to the carbon, you should get a reading of several thousand ohms…that’s the secondary. If you instantaneously connect a 6 volt (12v battery is fine for testing) battery between the screw terminals and the heavy springs, there should should be a high voltage spark at the carbon which you can feel with your fingers when the circuit is broken.

 

But I really think there is another reason you’re suddenly not getting any spark. Is there voltage at the primary coil terminals when you are cranking?

Yes, I'm getting 6 volts at both screw terminals with the ignition on, and while it's cranking each one is switching between 3 and 6 volts.  Initially, they stayed at 6 volts always because the points had some corrosion.  I cleaned the corrosion off the points, and measured the gap at 0.015".  When I put the distributor back in, they were switching between 3 and 6, and the spark tester lit up on #1 and #2.  Now the points are still switching, but the spark tester isn't lighting up on any cylinders.  I will certainly check the secondary resistances, I haven't done that yet.  I was hesitant to test the coil outside the car without a good way to connect the brush to the adjustable spark tester.  Some ignition coils can arc over internally and damage their windings if they don't have a good discharge path.  Perhaps connecting a clip lead between the tester and spring, and holding the tip of it to the brush while connecting and disconnecting the battery from the screw and spring would work.

[Ray500]

The whole problem with these old coils is that the copper wire of which they are made deteriorates as time passes.  Understand that the wire of which they are made being copper and highly conductive has to have an insulating property in order to function as a transformer which it is.  That insulation is a lacquer coating of the copper wire that is used to form the transformer.  It has what is known as a high 'turns ratio' between the primary and secondary to give it the boosting effects to 'light up your engine' in operation!   What deteriorates the insulation is the heat generated by it's operation and the heat from the engine which will cause it to eventually fail.  Heat will melt the lacquer exposing the copper wiring that then can short out in a high voltage setting.  That's it pure an simple!  So at least they still make the Ford coils that work quite well to keep you rolling down the road!   

[Sparkydave]

Some progress, got diverted onto some necessary home projects but I got a chance to get back to the Lincoln.  Checking the coil out, I've got about 0.6 ohms on each primary, and ~4000 ohms on each secondary.  No leakage between either secondary or primary.  Took a 3 ohm resistor, doubtlessly larger than necessary, put in series with my 6 volt power supply and each primary, connected my spark gap tester to the coil spring, and touched the end of the tester to each carbon brush.  Some success, I have a nice blue spark on the tester as I touched the resistor to my power supply.  Both coils appear to be working.  I guess the next plan is pull the distributor off again, put the coil on, and try repeating the test except turning the distributor and touching the tester to the slip rings and the rotor tips.

[Ray500]

It sounds promising Dave!  However the real test is on the vehicle firing 12 cylinders.  If it stays cool that's good as the heat is a problem with those old coils.  Hopefully your spark plug wires are good, hard to tell if they arching inside the conduits.  They should be soft and pliable anyway with less tendencies to crack and leak sparks!  Good luck with it!