California's Gas The Worst In The World???

[Guest]

As you probably know, California has strict regulations on its gasoline. They put so many additives in it that by the time its all said and done its not true gas any more!! I have had my car in the shop several times do to the gas we have here. Sometimes my engine will stall and idle erratically. The dealer cant find anything wrong with my car. They said it was do to the fuel. They also said that they get 5 or 6 cars in a day with the same problem I have. I have also noticed that in California you can only get 91 octane fuel, but in everyother state you can get 93. What gives????

[Guest COMPACTBC]

We also have the most EXPENSIVE GAS in the USA (fast approaching $3.00 a gallon for the higher octane), and you can thank the FEDERAL E.P.A. for the formalation that we are forced to use. In an effort to please the "oil lobby" we tried MTBE in our gas to meet the EPA requirements, but then it was finally discovered that MTBE poisoned our water supply, so now we are being forced to add ethanol as a replacement,a political decision made by the EPA to please the corn growers in IOWA even though there is supposed to be other alternatives available. Pres. Bush doesn't like our Governor Davis (neither do I)so he isn't about to help him with this problem, so all of us are the victims of this political C***! <img src="http://www.aaca.org/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/mad.gif" alt="" /> All this gives a new meaning to the "left coast"!

[NTX5467]

You might write your fuel problems to the fact that it's a transitional time of the year, temperature wise. The refineries are changing their seasonally adjusted blends in a somewhat hit or miss fashion due to the lack of a stabilized temperature range. Not specifically related to MYBE as such, but to reformulated gas in general.

Several years ago, after we got Reformulated Fuel in our region of TX, a local car related radio talk show host fielded many driveability complaints from owners of later model computer controlled vehicles. They'd die and generally run poorly, typically. No codes in the vehicle's computer--no problems found, just as you mention. This deal has nothing to do with the fuel's octane.

This same talk show guy, Ed Wallace, was not a fan of MTBE from the start. He also had an explanation of how that deal started. Seems the ethanol people and the MYBE people got to quarrelling during the hearings. Naturally, ADM (Archer-Daniels-Midland) was behind the ethanol deal, he reported. End result was that MTBE was the judges decision. Although MTBE was known to be carcinogenic, there was little valid research at the time.

Mr. Wallace's orientation was that MTBE was a bad choice when there should have been others. He reported a couple of years later that Michigan decided to lower the Reid Vapor Pressure spec on their fuel by one notch and got the same end result as the MTBE fuel had.

Some of these EPA decisions were political and some were based of the seemingly poor research on these things at the time the decisions were made.

The Chevron website used to have a great FAQ on Reformulated Fuel. Mentioned things like longer crank time, slightly lower fuel economy, and a few other driveability related things they'd noticed in their test vehicle fleet.

When we got it down here, my carbureted vehicles had no significant problems. The main one might have been fuel line degredation, but that hasn't been a problem as most hose manufacturers knew it was coming and changed their rubber formulations to compensate.

It seems the later computer systems in the vehicles have been upgraded to compensate for it too. The owner's manual also states the max percentage of ethanol in the fuel which the individual vehicle's fuel system will tolerate too.

As I stated, this is not an octane issue.

I noticed back in the later '70s when the pump octane regulations came out, the pump octane did not match the previously quoted Research Octane numbers we'd heard about for years. I went through the SAE Transactions I found in the Texas Tech University Library to find some information on this subject.

There were two ways to measure a fuel's octane rating. There is a fuel called "octane" that is rated at 100 with respect to anti-knock performance. Allegedly, it's a somewhat easy spec to meet. There is also a test that is called "motor" that is rougher to meet. Naturally, "octane" is higher and "motor" is lower. What we see on the Pump Octane number is an averaging of the Research and Motor Octane numbers, hence the "(R+M)/2" designation on the label.

These tests are performed on a "spec motor" of a particular design with known characteristics in each case.

My research indicated that regular fuels of the day were basically 92 Research Octane and ended up with a posted pump octane number of 87. Mid-range fuels were in the 94-95 Research Octane range and had a pump octane number of 89. Premium fuels were typically 97-101 octane range and had pump octane numbers of 91-95.5.

Now, initially the premiums were typically 91 octane, meaning that a slight adjustment to the intial timing on an older 10.0 compression ratio motor might need a little adjusting downward by about 2 degrees BTDC or so (nothing major, must a few minor tweaks). Then, as technology progressed and other fuel additives were developed, the posted pump octane for premium crept up to 93. The 95.5 posted pump octane I mentioned was for Phillips66 Flite Fuel lower lead premium fuel in Lubbock, TX. I figured that since it was nearer to the plant in the TX panhandle, it was "fresher" as the same fuel in the DFW area was posted at 95 pump octane and didn't run nearly as well down here as it did in the Lubbock area.

Back in the later '70s, in the DFW metro area we started to be able to get 93 pump octance fuel in certain brands. Once out of the area, these same brands only had 91 pump octane fuel. Higher elevations typically require less octane so that might have been a factor too. Less dense atmosphere means less dense intake charge and possibly less cylinder pressure, hence less octane requirement as the engine will not "see" the same higher cylinder pressures as they will at lower altitudes. Later on, the 93 pump octane fuels were expanded to other area.

At the dealership level, what we see in relation to driveability issues on later model vehicles is related to carbon buildup from the "cleaner burning" fuel. It will restrict the EGR passages and not let the EGR valve fully seat (causing poor idling and sometimes even dieing complaints). It will restrict air passages in the throttle body assemblies (sometimes which can be disassembled and cleaned and sometimes not). One of our techs has a Ford Explorer with a driveability problem. Another tech with experience in the non-dealership repair shop industry advised him to look inside the throttle body and see if there were what looked like "carbon snakes" in there, where the carbon buildup would accumulate and push out of the passages.

At the present time, there are a multitude of fuel additives and treatment procedures to address these issues. Some are added to the fuel tank and others are a multi-step proecess (fuel tank general fuel system cleaner, spray throttle body cleaner, injector cleaner). In many cases, they might help but disassembly of the throttle body assembly might be required. In some cases of later model GM light trucks, GM has stated a thorough cleaning of the throttle body cannot be successfully done so replacement is necessary. Extended warranty companies many times will not pay for replacement, only cleaning.

The other deal which can cause such carbon buildup is an injector that is leaking or not spraying and actuating accurately. In the case of the Central Point Injection on the Chevy 4.3L V-6, when the EGR system gets carboned-up can be the result of buying low quality fuels and the CPI unit itself starting to leak a little too much. Replacement of the CPI unit and taking the intake manifold components off for a cleaning is the best fix.

So, where the issues will be include first an EGR code and then later the CPI unit will fail. Therefore, most techs are conditioned to look at both systems when such a complaint is received. This can result in an expensive repair, but one that is necessary to keep things running as they need to be.

At the dealership level, unless there are some operational codes in the ECM, the tech will just be going from experience on such issues with the particular vehicle. If there aren't any codes, many will not do anything as "there is no basis" for the complaint (according to the computer), hence "No Problem Found". A second visit might result in something being done on an investigationary orientation. Hopefully, there will be some warranty coverages so the cost will not be too much for the customer, but if there are none, most will back away if there are no codes.

GM warranty will not cover "exploratory" issues unless a problem is discovered in the process. Similar with the aftermarket extended warranties (which generally have less coverages and more stipulations). With no codes found, it doesn't make a good case with respect to warranty coverages.

In some cases, a scan tool can pickup operational issues in computer memory that might not set a code--with respect to throttle setting, rpm, length of time, etc. It might not be big enough to set a code, but big enough to be in memory. I believe that only OBDII vehicles might have that capability. The sophistication of the scan tool might be a factor too. Hopefully, this "snapshot" capability might help, but you'll pay for "diagnostics" or "check out" to get it done even if the repair is performed.

ALSO, don't expect any technician worth his weight in gold to go strictly on what someone else or somebody else's scan tool says. A good tech might use that for basic information, but to back up their diagnosis, they'll do their own check with their scan tool (a known quantity). If the two diagnosises have similar results, it's good. A scan tool is not a generic item either. The GM dealers should have the one that is specific to GM vehicles and matches all of the GM computerized in-house diagnostics AND GM's troubleshooting procedures. There are many high quality scan tools out there too, but they might not have all of the capabilities to look at things the GM item does.

If, per chance, the ECM needs to be "reflashed", it will be a dealership only procedure. If it's a warranty issue, there usually will be no cost.

So, in these cases during the seasonal fuel formulation adjustment period, you might put some Techron additive in the fuel and go on higher speed freeway/road trip out of town (meaing a few hundred miles at one time)when you can. The higher engine speeds (compared to surface street town driving) will result in a consistently higher engine temp and combustion chamber temp to help the additive do its job and clean things out. Similarly, the constant fuel flow will help get the accumulations from the fuel system too. If no significant changes take place, then disassembly might be needed to get the carbon cleaned out of the intake manifold/thorttle body/EGR system passages.

When I'd make the weekend trips from and to Lubbock in the '70s, I noticed that each time the car would run just a little better. Had to have been getting the residual carbon cooked out of the combustion chambers. I could help things along with a can of Berryman's B-12 in the fuel too, but ususally didn't need to.

You would think that with the advanced fuel systems and controls that everything would be kept clean as a clean burn is necessary for decreased emissions. That might be accurate for the combustion chamber, but the other passage ways in the areas other than the combustion chamber are where the clogging issues tend to be.

Many dealers have GM or aftermarket "cleaning" additive procedures they offer. Just as with periodic fuel filter replacement (which might not be mentioned in the GM vehicle maintenance schedule at a particular mileage) can be recommended, fuel injection service can be a regular item also. Those two items, performed periodically, can save many problems and expensive repairs down the road, by observation. Buying national brand fuel can help too as there are quality differences now just as there were in the '70s. In this case, "national brand" = something like Chevron, Exxon, Shell, Texaco and not "convenience store brands".

Some vehicles are more picky about these things than others also.

Just some of my observations. Hope they help explain some of the seasonal and other driveability issues on modern GM cars.

Just as in the old days, everything needs to be clean and fully operation for optimum engine performance. But's it's also something where you can overdo it too, so finding what works best for your vehicle might take a little trial and error checking out--whether it's carbureted, electronic carburetored, or has the various styles of fuel injection. Unfortunately, it might take 10,000 miles+ to find it out.

Enjoy!

NTX5467

[tomchaney]

This may or may not be related to gasoline...and it certainly isn't related to Buicks, but NTX you seem to have a lot of knowledge in this area so let me float a question. Several months ago, my '89 Toyota failed its Calif. smog test. A trip to the dealer to replace the timing belt (which was due) and adjust the fuel system & timing resulted in the car now passing smog, but it immediately manifested a new problem. It now has a "dead spot" during the first inch of gas pedal travel which causes the engine to "leap" when accelerating from a coast (at any speed). It accelerates OK from a dead stop. It accelerates OK if I have not taken my foot completely off the pedal. If I am crawling slowly in traffic, it will often "oscillate" until I get over about 20 MPH. Dealer claimed I needed a new distributor, but I don't think that is it. It's the same distributor that was on it the day before the problem popped up. My mechanic can't find it. It did generate a code indicating EGR valve replacement. That was done. Now there are no computer codes generated. It is most pronounced after the car warms up. Any ideas? <img src="http://www.aaca.org/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/confused.gif" alt="" />

[NTX5467]

I'm not well versed in Toytota items, but I'll respond in more general areas. I suspect most of the computerized engine control systems will be similar in concept, but different in execution. The smog tests are done at steady state rpm/load conditions unless it's a chassis dyno IM240 test with varying speeds and such.

If you move the accelerator pedal and nothing happens, it could well be a throttle position sensor as that's what sends the computer the information that you are desiring higher rpm/power. If this signal isn't there until some throttle linkage movement has taken place, suddenly the computer thinks you "punched it" and acts accordingly. There should be some voltage parameters for that sensor which might be checked with diagnostic equipment or a voltmeter.

The undulating rpm might be resulting from a sticking Idle Air Control. Idle speed is determined by a stepper motor that opens, closes, or varies an air flow passage in the throttle body. The throttle valve in the throttle body is fully closed at idle as a resuslt. Might even be some deposits in the throttle body throttle valve itself not letting things seat fully and making the IAC try to compensate for it. The stepper motor is a "replacement" item whereas the throttle body deposits might be cleaned with an appropriate spray cleaner.

At that lower rpm, I don't suspect EGR would be an issue, but the purging action of the charcoal cannister of the emissions system could be. Causing a rich condition that the computer tries to deal with--which might be better tolerated during some engine operational situations than others.

There also could be a sensor to detect manifold vacuum levels. This type of sensor can have different functions (i.e., Barometric pressure, manifold vacuum levels, altitude compensation) and resultingly different names, but it still senses vehicle load via manifold vacuum levels.

Another related item might be a Mass Air Flow meter or similar. It can used various means to detect the amount of air going through the intake air duct so that can be used to measure how much fuel is needed at the injectors. Sometimes, these sensors have exposed wires and such that can get covered with deposits. It's possible the deposits can be cleaned or it will require outright replacement. I don't know if that might be applicable in your situation.

It could be that an experienced Toyota technician (at a dealership or in a private shop) could diagnose these things without too much problem as they've probably seen them before. Especially if they set no codes.

In this metro area down here, there are several Toyota (or similar) specialty shops that usually are owned/staffed by technicians that got their feet wet in the dealership arena and then went out on their own. These people usually know the ins and outs of Toyota products and are reputable people. They know their areas of specialization and generally stick to that only, plus possibly some routine maintenance procedures.

In the middle '80s, a close friend bought an Alfa GTV6 coupe (great car, especially after 15,000 miles and the suspension smoothed out). During the warranty period, it developed a hard restart problem after it had sat for about 45 minutes or so in the Texas summer. If would finally start, but only after an extended crank time. The dealer in Dallas could find no issues and replaced the battery under warranty. My friend tolerated the problem, reluctantly. When he got ready to sell it about 18 months later, the doctor who was purchasing it for his teenage son suggested they take it to an Alfa specialist that was in downtown Fort Worth for a checkout.

My friend told the shop owner about the hot restart problem. The shop owner grabbed a screw driver and had the necessary screws tweaked in short order. The car started instantly and idled smoothly. My friend was amazed and the shop owner said "They all do that . . . unless . . ." and then explained what was happening. Something he could do but a dealership tech might have been restricted from doing for various reasons as everything was "to factory specs".

I hope this helps with your problem or gives you some information to build upon. In this electronic age, it could be something as simple as a degraded electrical terminal connection or chaffed section of wire in the harness or it could be a failed component. Diagnosis might be time consuming, but the other side of the deal is that you can chunk parts ($$$) at it and not fix anything (unless you get lucky).

Have a great week!

NTX5467

[tomchaney]

Thank you for your prompt and thoughtful reply. I do need to find a good Toyota mechanic in this area. When I lived in San Diego, I had an ACE who was not only skilled and reputable, he kept his shop as clean as an operating room! Though I live in Los Angeles now, I'm really tempted to travel south and let him have a crack at this! I've printed out your response.

By the way, your Alfa story reminds me of a similar (and certainly apocryphal) story told regarding Henry Ford. As the tale goes, one day the production line mysteriously shut down. An expert was summoned who examined everything thoroughly. After awhile, he told Henry that he could fix the problem for $10,000.01 and asked for a screwdriver. Given the go ahead, he proceeded to turn a single screw a quarter of a turn. The assembly line immediately burst to life. Ford demanded an itemized bill for the seemingly outrageous charge. A few days later he got it. Item #1: Turning the screw... .01. Item #2: Knowing which screw to turn... $10,000.00.

<img src="http://www.aaca.org/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/laugh.gif" alt="" />

PS: Thank you to all the Buick enthusiasts who have patiently allowed me to hijack this forum temporarily.

[Reatta Man]

Whether it is California or any other area, carbon buildup is a real problem in computer-controlled engines. Carbon buildup can cause serious driveability problems without setting a trouble code in many new cars.

Owners can do two things that I have found to be very helpful, even when the shop tells you there is nothing wrong.

First, the throttle body needs to be cleaned regularly. I use Berryman's B12 carb spray cleaner. Some people believe a carb cleaner is too strong to use in fuel-injected engines, but I have used it on several 3.8 engines with no trouble. If you are not certain, use the spray for fuel-injected engines. It is not as strong, and may take more spray to work.

If the car has a LOT of miles and the throttle body has never been cleaned, place several paper towels under the throttle body opening, and with the engine off, spray inside the throttle body. A lot of the spray will flow back out onto the paper towels. If it is black, keep spraying, moving the spray all around the throttle body, until it comes out of the opening fairly clear. Let the engine sit about 15-30 minutes before trying to start it. It will be VERY hard to start at first, and will run rough for a few seconds, but will smooth out very soon. This technique has cured several engines with the dead spot or sudden acceleration that was described earlier.

If the car is fairly new, I use the spray cleaner on the car while it is running. The spray will almost stall the engine, so you will have to keep the throttle open to avoid stalling, but this technique will clean the throttle plate, and the passageways leading to the intake valves.

The other step to take is to use a product called 44K in the fuel every 15-25,000 miles. It is made by a company called BG products. It is a very concentrated fuel injection cleaner that also works great in cleaning the carbon buildup off of the back of the intake valves. The first time I used it in my '96 Regal with 80K miles, my wife was driving the car and said she noticed a big difference in about 20-30 miles of freeway driving. The 44K product is used by many new-car dealers on cars brought into the shop for their 20K, 30K or 40K service. Because it is a strong product, it may be difficult to locate. Several of the gas stations around here on Air Force bases sell it, but it is hard to find at other stores. If you can't find it, go to www.cambridgeauto.com and order it from the Ryno products link. Yes, it is expensive (about $20 per can plus shipping) but it works. It is NOT sold on late night infomercials, and it doesn't promise to let you run your car with no oil or water (what a joke!) but it does work on your fuel system.

One other comment: I'm under the impression that the problems California drivers have to live through are MPT the cause of the U.S. EPA, but rather forced on you by your own state burecrats--the Californai Air Resources Board, or CARB.

Good luck to all of you!

Joe

[NTX5467]

Thanks for that additional information, Reatta Man! BG Products typically are sold through new car dealers and possibly some auto chains. We did use them but now buy a similar product from a dealer vendor that sells Berryman's product. Our changing had more to do with the actual local vendor than the product.

3M and some others also make a spray specifically for throttle body cleaning. Not sure just what differences there are in it and B-12, but there must be some. GM also had a cleaner kit (4 items in it) that some GM dealers might have. B-12 is a great product that can do many things, including some that many have forgotten about.

Key thing is to keep everything cleaned up on the intake side of the engine.

NTX5467