Engine Stands, Bolts, and the 3 Stooges.

[old buicks]

Haven't heard from you in a while. The 4 grade 8s is probably overkill, but what the Hell! I'd rather be safe than sorry. You mention an extra engine? Any chance you would have three U shaped valve keepers for that thing that would fit my 29 M-75 that I'm working on? I will be out of touch for a while so post me back about July 5. tsvanmeet@huntel.net "old buicks"<P>Thanks

[RoadsterRich]

Tom,<P>For pre 1930 Chrysler parts check with Jay Astheime. You can reach him at astheime@ptd.net . He also owns a beautiful Chrysler 75.<P>Rich

[RoadsterRich]

Hey gang! It's me again. Been awhile since I have posted. Cracked a few ribs and have not done much work on the car. Thought I would catch everyone up to date, and toss in a technical question to keep the moderators happy too <P>While I haven't been working a great deal on the car I have a growing (more like multiplying!) supply of parts and spares. Just this past weekend 22nd June 2002, I drove up to North Carolina (with the help of my girlfriend, she must really love me!) and picked up a spare engine and transmission for the car. I really didn't need the engine or the transmission (I don't think, but since we aren't running yet I don't know). I wanted the head, it has no cracks, and no huge plate welded on it to repair the water passages in the head. Turns out the engine was full of little pieces parts such as cable clips, studs, etc. that are missing on mine. Gold mine of little parts. We drove straight up left Friday night, drove through the night, rented and loaded a trailer, turned around and drove straight back. Just over 24 hours and 1200 miles later we were back home with the engine and transmission as well as a few boxes of other much needed parts as well.<P>The first of the 3 stooges routines came with moving the engine from one trailer to another with no engine hoist. We backed the two trailers up together, and started by trying to use a come along to drag it from one of the trailers to the other. The engine was sitting on a pallet. Seems that the pallet would rather break up than be used to pull the engine with. Round two involved the use of levers and using the come along to inch the pallet forward. Round three went to brute force, we borrowed a couple of young Air Force personnell, gave them some 2x6's about 6' long and let them lift and slide it in. When all else fails, the military came through!<P>When we got home, I borrowed a hydraulic engine lift (hoist?) to get the engine out of the trailer. Those engines sure are heavy! While I had the lift I figured I would pick up an engine stand and put the engine straight on it rather than have to borrow the lift again.<P>At this point I ran in to several issues. First was the hoist didn't come with a sling so I had to figure out where to attach the hoist. It came with a chain with a couple of metal pieces to bolt to the engine. I put one through the front motor mount hold with a 1/2" bolt securing it, then came the first issue, where to attach the second plate for the chain. I couldn't find anywhere reliable, I went risky and used one of the 7/16" bolts and bolt holes that hold the bell housing to the block. Fortunately it worked and we got the engine out of the trailer.<P>The next issue, I had run out and purchased a nice new engine stand. 4 wheeler, rated at 1250lbs. Looks nice, but very simplistic in design. Being a genious I had not thought about needing 4 bolts to hold the block to the stand. Of course it was now about 8 at night, so I ran off to the local hardware store, which just had to be closed. I ended up at Home Depot and all I could get were grade 3 3/8" UNC bolts 3" long. I had hoped to get 7/16" bolts as I have holes of both sizes. I decided to go with what we could get, though I had some fears over the shear forces on those bolts, and the ability of 4 of them to hold the block up (about 650lbs with head, etc on it). We got back and I quickly realized the next issue. The studs in the flywheel for the clutch assembly are too long, they were hitting the plate that the engine mounts to on the engine stand. I was able to rotate the plate finally enough that I could find a spot where the stud bolts were not in the way of attaching the engine to the stand. Using the 3/8" bolts which are 3" long (the stand has 4 arms with metal tubes on them that are about 2 1/2" long which the bolts have to go through) I managed to bolt the engine to the stand. Of course now the crankshaft can't be turned or the clutch studs will hit the engine stand. And then there are four 3/8" bolts holding the engine up.<P>It was quite the adventure, but 4 days later the engine is still on the stand. I plan to go and get 4 grade 8 7/16" bolts tomorrow and rebolt the engine to the stand before I have to return the lift.<P>Now that the shaggy dog story is over, for the real question.<P>Will it be safe to use four grade 8 bolts, 7/16" x 3" to hold the engine to the stand?<P>And out of curiosity, how much risk did I take using the four grade 3 bolts, 3/8" x 3" for temporary use?<P>For some reason seeing that huge block held up by 4 little bolts makes me nervous... any and all opinions welcome.<P>Rich

[Guest Hal Davis (MODEL A HAL)]

Rich,<P>I had to make some assumptions, but your 3/8 bolts should be just fine. Assuming that the center of gravity of your engine was 18" from the rear and that the upper pair of mounting holes was 12" higher than the lower pair, your factor of safety for 3/8" grade 2 bolts is about 16.

[RoadsterRich]

Thanks for the information. Being paranoid I swapped out bolts just to be safe. Heck the whole engine bouncing on the stand when I try to loosen a bolt makes me nervous enough as it is. I ended up with two 3/8" grade 8's and two 7/16" grade 8's holding it in place. The clutch plate studs stick out too far, so it isn't quite as centered as I would like. As a result it has a slight list to the right (looking forward from the back of the engine). The good news is it hasn't fallen off the stand yet! I plan on cleaning it up and pulling the head shortly. From there the head will go out to be cleaned, magnafluxed, and if needed milled flat. It is interesting, the block on the 'spare' engine is about 6 months newer than the block in the Roadster. The head on the spare engine is an older production run than the head in the roadster. Go figure. The spare engine is definitely all original and seems to be in good shape overall.<P>Back to the engine stand questions. I bought one of the small roll arounds rated for 1000lbs load. The mounting plate has 4 arms which are bolted to it and adjustable. Each arm has a tube welded to it, which a bolt runs through. The clutch assembly studs are about 1/4" longer than the tubes on the arms. As a result there is no way to turn the engine over with it in the stand. Are there better stands? Other options? I was in a hurry to get this one, though I did shop around and it was the best I could find locally, and the price was reasonable enough. Any suggestions? I'd like to be able to really work on the engine with it on the stand, though with these big inline 6's the head stands up pretty darn high.<P>Ah well, thanks for listening to the added ramblings. As always input is appreciated...<P>Rich

[fordee9r (Ron Springstead)]

Hey Rich,<BR>My first reaction was why not remove the clutch & flywheel before mounting on the stand? This would remove some weight and you could still turn the engine over with the crank pulley.

[RoadsterRich]

( insert your favorite choice words here > You know it never even occured to me to remove the flywheel. The clutch assembly and clutch plate were removed. This is why I generally ask questions first here, before I start a task. Guess I'll be borrowing an engine hoist again and removing the flywheel. At this rate I may have to clean up the garage a bit more to make room for one and get my own.<P>Ah well, yet another thing learned for future reference.<P>Rich

[ronbarn]

Rich, Harbor Freight has a sale on their hoist. About $170 and it folds up for out of the way storage when not in use. Glad to hear of progress. Keep us posted.

[RoadsterRich]

Ron,<P>Thanks for the heads up on the hoist. Unfortunately price is not nearly the issue that space is. I'd post a picture of the garage but I am highly embarrassed as it is. Suffice it to say I have to move things out of the garage in order to be able to work on the car. Guess I've been acquiring a few too many parts a little too fast. Time for a good ole garage sale I guess. I find the darndest things in there, three generations of 'stuff', some of it still in the boxes it was brought to Florida in, nigh on 20 years ago by my folks and my grandfather. I haven't even thought about tackling the attic yet...<P>Rich<p>[ 07-03-2002: Message edited by: Roadster Rich ]

[Guest]

Rich,<P>I don't know if it'll set your mind at ease, but I have a 454 Chev bolted to one of those cheapy engine stands as you described. It's been there for 10 years. I've moved it around on my very uneven garage floor (this includes parts where someone added some concrete, which was cracked, chipped and broken when I bought the house, over the original floor). This engine is a complete running engine with only an aluminum intake to lighten it. I used GM 3/8" starter motor bolts to attach it.<P>With regards to lifting an engine with a hoist, I made myself a plate (it has both quadrajet and Holley hole patterns) that bolts into the four carb holes. Four short 5/16" bolts hold it to the intake. The hook from the hoist goes through a verticle loop welded to the plate. No problem even with the aluminum intake. The beauty of this setup is that, due to the slight drop at the rear of the tranny, you can install engine and tranny together yourself!!! I've done it, in a gravel driveway to boot just using plywood under the wheels. (I used to walk ten miles to school too ... up hill both ways. LOL. Just joking, I did do the 454/th400 install in my 73 Caprice ragtop in a gravel driveway.)<P>If you can't use the plate that I described, the other safe places that I've seen the hoist chains attached to are the intake and exhaust bolt holes. 3/8" bolts (preferably grade 8) seem to be just fine for the weight. My father-in-law (Ron) is a heavy equipment mechanic, but I've helped him pull and install a few car engines at his house. He's a little old fashioned (read pigheaded) sometimes and won't use my lifting plate even though he's only about 200 yards down the road, and around the corner so I don't have to see him every day.<P>Tom