Performance Heads for the 3.8L??

[Guest]

Gentlemen/Ladies (I add Ladies because I presumptuously stated, "A man after my own heart" to "BUICK RACER" only to find out that "BUICK RACER" is a lady named Roberta. (Roberta, can you please forgive me? ) Anyway, not wanting to get off on the wrong foot, I just wanted to mend that fence. So, gentle people, I am trying to find out some things about the 3.8L V6 Buick engine in the performance vein........mainly, non-turbo performance heads. Are there any heads available for this engine that have more than two valves per cylinder? Is there anything available, performance-wise, that is OEM? What is a good after-market source for performance parts for Buicks? The reason I am asking all these elementary questions is that I have spent most of my life racing MOPARs, but a coupla months ago I got a piece of my 340 'cuda's tushie torn off by something that was bearing the BUICK logo. I decided right that very moment that "I GOTTA GET ME ONE OF THOSE"!! No, I don't have a clue what it was, but it was a small (not a Reatta) two-door, family looking car. Anybody got any idea what trashed me so badly? Did anybody get his license number?? It did have factory dual exhausts, which was about all I could see as he was disappearing down the road. I own a Buick Park Avenue, so I know what the Buick logo looks like and that car had the logo. I would appreciate any input concerning any of the above. Thanks! Your input is appreciated.

[Guest]

Bentwrench, I have noticed you posts re: the 3.8 V6. A casual search on Google turned up a ton of links all related to Buick Hipo.<P>What exactly are you trying to achieve? This engine did not come with 4 valves because simplicity was one of the beauties of it's design. I believe it's basically a 327 chevy with two cyl's cut off, hence it's terrific reliability. All that works on a small block Chev will work on it too.<P>I once read an article comparing this engine to modern 4 valve engines and although the HP was lower it's brake specific fuel consumption was lower and torque production was higher at low RPM. That's saying something.<P>It was designed as a bread and butter engine but is built like all the other great Chevy engines ever made---good solid common sense engineering. Why mess with a good thing like making a 4 valve heads for it, this would take a complete redesign and likely destroy all that made it great to begin with.<P>I think everyone on here is wondering what it is you are looking for from your engine, four valves won't make it any better unless you want to turn it over 7000. Many of the modern 4 valve engines were made that way because it sells cars, not that it improved the engine for street use.<P>It all comes down to what it is you want?

[Guest]

V6 Buicks are no relation to Chevies, and V8 tech. isn't the correct approach. The 4.3 Chevy V6 IS a V8 missing two cylinders but the Buick is completely different and Please don't equate a Buick with a Chebby.

[Guest]

Sorry, didn't mean to insult you, I stand corrected. Dem Chebby's are nothing like dem Buicks.

[Guest]

Thanks, you had me worried for a moment. The car that torched the 340 'Cuda? Maybe a 15 year old GN or Turbo Regal? Even 10 second cars are pretty streetable. But those are little large for the description, plus pretty well known. The modern Supercharged Regals are all 4-doors I believe (I might be wrong on that one) and they do appear fairly small, or perhaps a S/C Riviera, a 2-door, but also not very small. Need more info.

[Guest]

Hey guys....thanks for the replies. I had to make a quick trip to Yuma today and haven't been here to respond. Yes, I am aware of the 4.3 being a short "chebby", but I am awed by the silkiness of the 3.8. I'm also interested in the weight savings of the 3.8 as apposed to the 4.3........besides, I want to build a Buick bracket car. My 'cuda used to run in the 12's, but it is now retired from the rigors of drag racing. Besides, my daughter took it away from me.<BR>My purposes for the information requested is purely for drag racing. <P>In Phoenix, I'm referred to as "Granpa Mopar" and have devoted a bunch of years to those lovable beasts, but I like the Buick, too. I've never had a Buick to race and since my daughter has essentially taken my toy away from me, I'm looking for "new" territories to conquer.<P>I hope my questions weren't too juvenile, but I have to start my research somewhere.<BR>By the way, the Buick that handed me my lunch was about the size and shape of a Pontiac GP, but it distinctly had the Buick emblem on it. I'm not a stranger to having my day spoiled by some roller skate with a Titan III rocket stuck in it somewhere. One of my worst defeats was a Mazda RX7, and I'm still looking for pieces of my car that he tore off. <P>Hey, guys.....I just turned 66 about 8 days ago, so have a little pity on me. Most guys my age are just talking about it.

[Guest]

Now your talking Bentwrench, seems Buick performance parts sell some really nice hardware for Grand National race cars, here's the link;<BR> <A HREF="http://www.gmpartsdirect.com/performance_parts/store/catalog/Category.jhtml%C2%BFCATID=146.html" TARGET=_blank>http://www.gmpartsdirect.com/performance_parts/store/catalog/Category.jhtml%C2% BFCATID=146.html</A> <P>Good place to start, good solid race motors these 3.8 make. You'll find some aluminum heads and intakes there as well as some hardcore blocks and cranks, big bucks to be sure but can you say 500HP V6!!!<P>Here's another;<BR> <A HREF="http://www.taperformance.com/what's.htm" TARGET=_blank>http://www.taperformance.com/what's.htm</A> <P>These boys are into dragging.<P>Here's a list of companies specializing in Buick V6's, Ken Belle is quite famous and can probably steer you in the right direction;<BR> <A HREF="http://www.geocities.com/MotorCity/Speedway/1569/sources.html" TARGET=_blank>http://www.geocities.com/MotorCity/Speedway/1569/sources.html</A> <P>Hope this helps.<p>[ 02-16-2002: Message edited by: Chuck da Machinist ]

[Guest]

Thanks, Chuck.......<BR>This is exactly the information I'm looking for. I figure I will do about 2 months of research deciding exactly what I want to build and then start my project in earnest. <BR>Yes, I know how to say 500 HP V6 Buick. I have a 504 cu. in. Mopar engine setting on the floor here and it dyno'd out at close to 1100 HP. I'd kill to have a Buick that had that kinda ponys.<P>I just built myself an air conditioned garage (we need that in Phoenix), so I'll spend the summer putting together whatever I decide to build in comfort. Besides, I ain't no spring chicken and I try to stay outa the heat as much as possible.<P>Thanks again for the great input, Chuck. You'll know where to find me all day tomorrow.....studying those websites.

[Guest]

Sounds like you are already extremely well versed and know how to have some serious fun!!<P>Ken Belle was a bit of a pioneer with the Buick V6 and just might know more than GM in that regard. His website is still under construction but here is the link anyway;<BR> <A HREF="http://www.kennebell.net/" TARGET=_blank>http://www.kennebell.net/</A> <P>Would love to see some photos of whatever you decide on doing, Luck to you!

[Guest]

I'll stay in touch with you Chuck, and keep you apprised of my progress. I rarely do anything on impulse, so this will be slow at first. As I acquire all my parts and can see it coming together, I'll shoot some pics for you. Too bad you have to be so far away, 'cause you sound like a wrenchhead I'd like to have around as a partner in this little project. Rattle my cage every now and then at cuda340@cox.net.<P>Thanks again! You've been a big help!

[Guest]

I'd skin a knuckle with you anytime BW, my doors always open.<P>Found this last night, some tidbits about the history of the engine. Might be helpful if you want to do a stock block build up as the parts changed from year to year;<BR> <A HREF="http://www.gnttype.org/general/v6hist.html" TARGET=_blank>http://www.gnttype.org/general/v6hist.html</A> <P>and one last thing 60 years old and in good health equals spring chicken in my books!

[Guest]

Nice words, Chuck. Uhh,....it's 66, though. I'm old enough to have done it all, but still young enough to want to do it again. I was up until 3:30 this morning reading all the stuff you sent me to checkout......thanks again! Good stuff!!<P>I'm watching the Daytona 500 and I notice that Mark (Martin) has made it up to 19th place. He started 36th I just hope his season is better this year than last. Seems like he had something else on his mind besides trying to win last season. Mark is a distant cousin of mine......his father (Julian) was a grand nephew to my uncle Raymond Martin. I'm not quite sure what relationship that makes us, but I had to change Mark's diaper more than once when he was a rugrat.<P>Well, guys....sorry to get off track, but you know how us "old guys" are about nostalgia. Later, all!

[Guest]

It would seem that speed is in the bloodlines! Diapers is all I seem to change these days, my twins are 1 3/4 years now and my oldest is 4. I spend a lot of time playing "cars" on the floor with them instead of hopping them up, makes me feel like a kid again! VROOOOM!<P>I'm a fan of any kind of motorsport and speedvision is on in my house whenever it's not cartoons Ha Ha! Being a machinist has certainly exposed me to all kinds of hardware, but mostly it was all done with someone elses money. <P>My most recent involvement with motorsports was racing Mazda RX7's at our local track, the rotary engine concept was one I have always been interested in and I got some pretty impressive power levels from stock engines. Fuel consumption was near big block Chevy thirst however because of the large quench areas in the design. Expensive parts too.<P>The Buick V6 has always appealed to me because of it's rock solid block and head design as well as the hefty rods and crank. I've often wondered what kind of race car I could build with that great engine in it, if only Buick built a independant rear suspension sportscar. <P>In GT3 where I raced the rules are very restrictive towards rotary engines and winning with them can be a challenge when they calculate weight penalties in the range of 600 pds! They push you up a class to GT2 if you do anything fancy with the porting and carburation, sigh! <P>Very frustrating to an innovator, I was once disqualified for injecting air in the exhaust to promote a kind of jet exhaust effect and had taken advantage with a suitably modified factory exhaust manifold with a rocket type nozzle inside to promote scavenging, I guess they didn't like the 1 foot flame that followed me around the track and the fact that no muffler I could build would last under the intense heat. <P>They caught on when they noticed the 4 times larger air injection unit I had fitted in place of the factory unit, in hindsight I should have turned the clutch bellhousing into a big blower and utilized it instead, would have been less obvious. Sure went like stink though as I estimated a 50 HP increase since I picked up 20 MPH on the back straightaway from 110 to 130 MPH!! Being less of a showoff might have helped too, since I started last (missed qualifying) and almost lapped the leaders by the end of the race. You never could accuse me of being subtle!<P>Perhaps you could use that family relationship to get some discarded heads and other hardware for cheap, I know the Nascar boys are constantly trying different head porting and such. Maybe they've got a set of Stage 2 heads laying around that were ported to much for oval track but would be perfect for draggin?! Old uncle Bentwrench could call in some old diaper changing favors!

[Guest]

Unfortunately, Roush Racing is into Fords. Not very likely to find a set of stage II heads in their shop. The last time I talked with Mark, he acted like I was just somebody looking for an autograph. (I felt like turning him over my knee :mad He's a nice guy, but he is very private and doesn't like to talk about personal stuff......like family, and stuff like that. I'm better friends with his grandmother than I am with him.<BR>Understand that I don't have a close relationship with Mark. He lives in South Carolina.........or maybe North Carolina.... not sure which, and I live in Phoenix. Only time I see him is when he comes to Phoenix in October for the Pyroil 500.....and I haven't even bothered the last few years. <P>Sounds like you're a fairly young guy with children the ages you mentioned. My daughter is almost 34 and is single. She's trying to burn both ends of the candle by going to school to get her Master's degree and working fulltime in University Administration. She has some very nice gentlemen friends, but nothing serious. It's her choice, not theirs. She's also into TV commercials, so she has a full plate.<P>Well, Mark just finished 6th, but I have totally gotten off the subject again. I'll try to stay on the subject in the future, but right now, mama has a steak fixed for me. Later!

[Guest]

I'm just a young punk BW, will be 35 in Dec. Been married for 12 years now to my high school sweetheart had the three kids late because of school. <P>I currently hold 5 tickets, machinist-journeyman, tool@die maker-journeyman, millwright-journeyman, stick welding-journeyman, mechanical engineering technologist-interprovincial as well as some other minor training from the aircraft and hydroelectric industries. <P>I now work at the largest hospital in Winnipeg repairing medical devices and making them, I'm a lucky guy, most machinists I know are still getting their hands dirty.<P>Dummy that I am should have went to medical school, turns out bone surgeons are just machinists that work on bones. Must be nice to have material that fixes itself .<P>I can understand Marks need for privacy, he must have all kinds of crazies after him for something. I'm more into F1 racing and sports car than anything else but I still watch The Daytona 500, stock car racing is what got me interested in cars in the first place.<P>If you ever need anything, there is a great group of guys here especially the AACA. Anything you might post will probably be answered eventually, you might be surprised at the depth of knowledge represented here. A nice change from the usual internet crap. Lots of guys in your age group too, it's why I keep coming back, they were here long before me and have probably forgotten more than I know. I learn something new every time I come here.<P>I'll keep doing some looking around, I have some old early eighties articles about the Buick V6 laying around here somewhere. When I find them I'll scan them and send you an e-mail. <P>Have fun and keep the rubber side down.

[Guest]

Thanks, Chuck... Any literature at this point will be very helpful and very much appreciated. Your background is very interesting as I also was drawn to the medical field, but somewhere along the way I became a mechanical engineer and my medical plans went out the window. I'm a mechanical design engineer and I have designed medical gadgetry myself. More into prosthetics, tho. How I became an architectural designer is a mystery. I was happily stumbling down the road of life when a buddy of mine asked me to design him a home. He might as well have asked me to design one of your hydroelectric dams. That was about 15 years ago and I haven't quit. Just last week I finished a 13,478 sq. ft. home(?) for a client. (I personally feel that anything over 5,000 sq.ft. is obscene.) It has 7 bedrooms, a dining room that can seat 24 persons, and it has a servant's quarters. It also has a 6-car garage with a lift in one of the bays for servicing the family limo. It also has a totally automatic carwash in another of the bays. We have some very wealthy people here in the Phoenix area and you can see evidence of it all over the place. Our moderate winter temperatures attract people from all over the world to come here to live. When it gets hot here in the summer, our wealthy, fair weather friends leave and go back to their former homes in cooler climes. We lovingly call them "snowbirds". <P>I'm beginning to think that we should probably start using e-mail for our visitations as we have strayed far from our original subject matter. I gave you my e-mail address in an earlier posting, so maybe we can chat at length a bit more privately.<BR>I'm gonna give this chatroom up so somebody else can use it for what it was intended. Later, Buddy!

[Guest]

The 3.8 is based on a 215 aluminum v8 with two cylinders cut off. Buick invested a lot of time and money in the 215 only to find it unsuited to the cars they were building. The used it as the basis of the odd-fire V6, sold the rights, then bought them back in the 70's and fixed the crank so that it was an even-fire.<P>Last time I was at the dragstrip I saw a new 2-door Pontiac GP run in the mid-14s and this was at high elevation. GM makes a supercharged 2-door GP. <BR> Their was a third gen firebird in the late 80's I believe that had a turbocharged 3.8. I believe it was called the GTA.

[Guest]

Thanks, Tomsriv.......yes, I am very familiar with the Pontiac Firebird Trans-Am GTA. I have a 1987 GTA with the 350 TPI, and it is a killer car. Can't keep tires on it.......and they are the VR's, but the car that ate my lunch was NOT a GTA. However, it may have been Buick's version of the GP (whatever that might be). This car WAS a two-door, and it DID have Buick emblems on it. It's still a mystery to me, but if enough people get my message....someone is bound to figure out what I can serve this guy for desert! <P>Thanks for your input, Tomsriv. It is appreciated.

[Guest]

Strange. I would like to know what it was also. To the best of my limited knowledge, there haven't been any two-door Buicks in the last ten years or so, except the Riviera? There were two door LeSabres but no counterpart to the Pontiac GP's. No dual exhausts on any Buicks, except the big sedans and wagons with V8's, however the aftermarket is another story. Supposedly the fastest Firebirds built until the latest generation were the '87's with the turbo 3.8 from the Grand National. Faster than the older big blocks and the only car until that time to pace the Indy 500 in unmodified form.

[Guest]

Hi, 2seater.......I'm still not sure either, but somebody suggested that it might have been a turbocharged '97 Buick Regal GS and I have a tendency to think they might be right. When you're getting your daily dose of rubber dust in your face, you don't always catch all the details of the guy and the car that's throwing it at you. I'm not familiar with what the '97 Buick Regal GS looks like, so it's still up in the air. All I know is "I GOTTA GET ME ONE OF THOSE!!"<BR>Thanks for your continued concern. BW

[Guest]

Supercharged Regals are pretty quick, but they are all 4-doors I believe. I know the guys on the Buick S/C list complain the GP's are a little faster due to the dual exhaust, but there are quite a few performance parts for them, as well as the Pontiacs. TEP,(Thrasher Engineered Performance), does a lot with them. Smaller pulleys to spin the supercharger, cold air intakes, reprogrammed computers and other stuff. The quickest I have seen the last couple of years at Bowling Green have been in the high 13's-low 14's. I'll ask on the S/C forum to see about the two door angle.

[Guest]

2seater,.........It may have had four doors. Like I said, I might have been mistaken about how many doors it had, but it definitely had dual exhausts. It also had two indentations in the bodywork under the rear bumper for the exhaust tips. Heck, I'm not even sure it wasn't a Pontiac now. I'm getting e-mail from about ten different people, all telling me it was a Pontiac GP. Only thing is, I've never seen a Buick emblem on a Pontiac. BW

[Guest]

I did make a mistake, the supercharged Riviera does have factory dual exhaust.

[Guest]

Hehehe.......join the crowd!

[Guest]

I wish my Park Avenue had dual exhausts.

[Guest]

I noticed another error.The Firebird with the GN engine (but different heads) is the '89 TTA. Must have had my head where the sun don't shine. I checked with the S/C section of the gnttype list and they are not aware of any two door Buicks, except the Riviera, in the last generation of cars. There are a lot of the S/C Regals running around, 4-doors, that are real sleepers. Not nearly as flashy as the Pontiacs but almost as fast, plus they look smaller (at least to my eye). I have seen several cars with the S/C 3800 in them at the GS nationals in the last couple of years. A couple were in the high 13's, both GTP Pontiacs. The Regals were generally in the mid 14's and the Riviera's high 14's to 15 seconds or so.

[SBRMD]

Bentwrench: Three thoughts: A Supercharged Riv is not a small car to be sure, but it does have kind-of a "pinched" looking rump. Possibility? Also, there was a two-door version of the previous Regal body (about '88-'96) that was discontinued before the end of that run. I believe that car was available with the normally aspirated 3800, which was no slouch either, especially in that relatively lighter body. Finally, the previous Century body (shared with the Cutlass Ciera) came in a couple of two-door iterations, and in the mid-late '80's, you could get a normally aspirated 3800 in that car, which must have weighed all of 2800 or 2900 lbs.<P>All three of these ideas had full-width, horizontal taillights, but the Riv is a solid, spear-like shape, while the other two both are generally a kind of "double stripe". Do you remember the taillights? Sounds like you got a good look at them!<P>Steve.

[Guest]

I gonna try to answer both 2seater and SBRMD.<BR>2seater: At this point, we pretty much have it narrowed down to a late model Regal. Type, unknown. It was very quick (like 12 to 13 seconds quick) It vanished in front of my very eyes. I have a hunch that it was a highly modified and almost un-streetable, mid-'90's Regal. My Park Avenue is a heavy car, but it is pretty darned quick in a short race and I have been very pleasantly surprised that it has wiped several "stock" cars........including some Regals. The Buick in question, completely blew off my 340 'cuda which is a damn good trick. My 'cuda runs consistently in the 12's. My Park Avenue would not have gone 3 feet before it became apparent that it was hopelessly out-classed. The mystery continues.<P>SBRMD: I am very familiar with what the backend of a Riv looks like. It's just a squished Park (my description). The backend is very distinctive and I know when I'm following one......and yes, it DOES have dual exhausts (somebody elses comment, SBRMD) Gentlemen....at this point, I haven't the foggiest idea what it was other than the fact that it was a mid to late '90's BUICK! And, it was very likely just barely streetable. It ran like a 10 sec. car. I never had a prayer, or a chance in hell that I could compete with it. I'm sorry it has become a subject that obviously is keeping people up at night, because some of the e-mail that I'm getting from some of you guys comes long after I've gone to bed. <P>By the way, what would prevent somebody from taking the rear valence from a Pontiac GP, complete with the little cutouts for the factory exhaust pipes and fitting in to the back of a Buick Regal, or a GN and putting a custom exhaust system on it? I have a bodyman that fit the front half of a 1957 Chevy Bel Air to the back half of a 1959 Cadillac. He called it a Chevillac and it looked like it was manufactured that way. Somebody stole it and he thinks it wound up in Mexico. Phoenix had 17,959 cars stolen in 1999, and 19,466 in 2000. The Mexican border is only a two-hour drive from Phoenix.<P>Thanks, guys! Please don't belabor this little mystery. I'm willing to let it remain just that.........a little mystery.