29 DA - 6 - 2 questions

[Bob Zetnick]

Hoping you all can help me with 2 questions

First, I just finished my fabric top insert. I did sketches of what was remaining before I took the old one out. worked with a wordworker on the new oak frame, screwed on the metal perimeter pieces after cleaning / painting and butted the joints together; I added burlap, chicken wire and thin cotton padding. I then wrapped the vinyl top over this assembly and put 3M strip caulk in the shallow perimeter groove of the body. I placed the top on and pulled it into place. I haven't screwed it down yet from inside, but the wood frame lays pretty flat against the deep lip of the body. The vinyl sticks up above the car 3/8" - 1/2".......it looks nice, but is it supposed to stick up? I looked at photos of restored DAs and some of them the vinyl sticks up and looks real padded and some of them are pretty flush with the body. Which way is correct?......I'd hate to redo, but I want it to look like it's supposed to.

Second, I am trying to get my car in to a shop for the valve seats to be ground. The owner of the shop ( who has worked on antique cars for a museum here) said he'd do it if all the valves were moving. I checked last week and not all are moving. I did put a little penetrating oil on them last week. Tomorrow I plan on checking them and if still not moving will be taking off the valve covers and checking. Not being a mechanic is there some advice in checking these valves if they're still stuck?

Thanks a lot!

[nearchoclatetown]

Did you ever have the engine running? They COULD be siezed OR bent, rather believe siezed if it's been sitting a while. You can take the valve cover off and turn the engine until there is lots of clearance between valve and lifter, the CAREFULLY tap the valve to loosen it. If you've been soaking it it should come loose pretty easily. Not sure what your mechanic's hangup is, he has to remove the valves anyway. AND he's probably going to tell you to replace them too, if they are worn or pitted.

[Bob Zetnick]

nearchoclatetown, I've had the car 38 years, redid the engine with lots of help in the 70's and it ran great. With moves / career, blah, blah the car just sat and now I'm rebuilding it again. I rotate the crankshaft / camshaft with a socket connected to a breaker bar at the front of the engine. The valves were redone in the 70's as part of the engine rebuild. In redoing it this time I did see lots of carbon buildup on the valve heads and small pitting after cleaning, also in a previous post I mentioned oily rust residue in the manifold. I think my head gasket was bad and water may have leaked into the oil. This may have helped with the sticking valves. Anyway, I know I can get new springs and valves from Romar if I need to....don't know why the mechanic is hesitant in the other valve work which really concerns me that if he doesn't want to attempt it I probably shouldn't be trying to attempt it! I guess I just got to get in there and look. Thanks.

[nearchoclatetown]

SOunds like you have the head off? If so, can you see the valve seats when the valve is open. They may not be that bad if it sat that long. Maybe just free them up and put it back together. If the seats look narrow and crisp they are probably Ok. It may be a lot of work to free them up and put the head back on and do a compression check, BUT it may be cheaper.

[Bob Zetnick]

Yeah, I do have the head off and I have a new head gasket I'll install. I'll see this weekend if I can get them free and I'll check the seats. Do you think that the minor pitting is ok? If they don't free up with the penetrating oil is there anything I can do that may help them free up once the valve covers are off without taking the entire valve assembly apart? Thanks a lot!

[Guest 1930]

I am sure they will free up with penetrating oil and tapping them with a brass hammer just to be safe, I hope this picture helps, if there is still some disagreement among other DA owners I would be intererested in hearing it and would like to look into this further, most if not all of the pict. I have looked at so far match this and I do believe this to be original but I most certaintely did not exhaust all of my saved pict. of rooftops.

I would not let the guy that said he would help only if the valves were free touch my car, I am sure everyone agrees that freeing up valves is pretty elementry and I would be leery of that gentlemans expertise.

[nearchoclatetown]

Bob, without seeing it for myself it's hard to tell what you can get away with. Treat it like a frozen bolt in something you need to use, with respect an patience. Work it back and forth a small amount while spraying your favorite juice at it, mine is Gibbs. If it's REALLY tight leave it sit a while, don't force it. The crud you are scraping off the valve could ruin the guides. Heat may help, a heat gun would be better then a propane torch. Take your time.

[nearchoclatetown]

BTW, my soft top material sticks up about 1/4 inch from the steel roof on my DA. I'm very sure it's original, car was not driven since '48 just sat inside.

[Bob Zetnick]

Thanks for all the help! Jason, it looks as if your top sticks up like mine does and if I remember yours is an original victoria. I will be very patient with the valves....I try to take patience with all aspects of this car as I am not an expert by any means. Thanks for the advice...I'll let you know how this turns out.

[Guest 1930]

I hope I did not offend when I was commenting about your valves, what I should have said was it is just elementry work to anyone that has done that sort of work before and surely if the gentleman that is offering to rebuild your head is scared of some frozen valves than something is askew there. Anything that anyone has never done before can be scary though no matter how simple it may seem to the next guy.

I myself get a bottle of marvel mystery and spray it on whatever I am trying to free up, I let it sit a day and go back and tap on the object, I spray again, I repeat this process until it is free. I have also used kerosine, tapping on them is obviousely important because every time you do so it will allow just a little bit more of the liquid to penetrate.

That pict. is not from my car, it is just one that I have saved although mine does look identical to it, my car unfortunately is not original as it was restored in the late 70s. It will never be original again but I have done my best to put it back to as original condition as I can and it is always a work in progress. It is a Victoria though, there were three that I knew of, this is a picture of the third and was has become of it lately, the second has recently changed hands as well and I have no confidence ( or rather I am certain ) that the owner has much of an interest in what is correct for his car. I wish I knew of others, I had a visitor a few years back from D.B. club and he told me his neighbor had two or three of them, you know how that goes though, regardless I have lost that visitors info so I cannot pursue that avenue to see another.

What does this car look like???????Answer.......Every other car

[Guest DodgeKCL]

The top should be almost flush with the roof metal. They usually end up being a little proud with the roll of the fabric but otherwise flush. I have never seen any originals on any make of car that were anything but flush.

Does a '29 DA have Stellite hardened valve inserts like the later CPDD engines? If it does then they cannot be cut they have be ground with a 'stone'. In most cases I've run across they can be cleaned up with valve grinding compound by us DIYers at home. With a new set of valves and a fresh set of rings all the oil burning quits and the gas mileage jumps up quite a bit. Like double in my case in a flat head 6 I did this to in 2005. The choke actually 'works' now. Before it really didn't matter where I put the choke once the engine started on full choke. Now if I push the choke in right after start the engine will quit. I have to now push the choke in slowly as the engine warms up.

BTW I did not use NOS valves. I found that modern valves are much harder than NOS. Don't know why. Were 1930s valves softer in their hardness than modern valves? The shop I dealt with showed me how NOS valves would literally stay on a cement floor with a 'thud' after dropping from 4-5 feet and modern valves would bounce back up a couple of feet and 'sing' for a few seconds. He took 12 1958 Chev 283 V-8 exhaust valves and cut the ends and punched them for Chrysler keeper pins. He found the valves by going through a master book and looking for modern valves that were the same face angle and size and stem width as mine. The intakes and exhaust valves on many of these old flatheads are the same.

I didn't put in new guides as the old valves were erroded along their stems. Something to do with their softness? The new modern valves took away 90 % of the play in the guide area.

He says at the use and speeds I drive it will be the last set of valves the car will ever need. I believe him.

[Bob Zetnick]

Jason, you did not offend at all. The guy has helped me before on the carb. His shop usually caters to newer cars, but they have worked on the cars at the Pate Museum near Fort Worth.

I have tried to pay either he or his assistant to come a distance of 4 miles to look at a few of my problems including this one. They said they can't do that, so I'll have to trailer my car over there. He initially confused my car as having overhead valves which I corrected him on. Anyway, besides all on these boards I don't know of any mechanic in this area besides this one guy willing to help me w/ questions or have the proper tools to work on her. I have had some interest before, but only if I rodded it which I'm not doing.

This goes back to your photos. It's ashame that one of the 3 Victorias you know of that one has been rodded and one I assume will be rodded. I've seen so many original cars sold on Ebay that are prefaced with "Ratrod" as if to get rid of all the original equipment and just basically use the body......if it's just a shell I don't mind as much unless very rare, but to take a piece of history and modify it like that I don't agree with.

I am going to my garage right now and am hoping the penetrating oil has worked and if not just work with patience on it. Maybe as nearchoclatetown said if the seats are crisp and all is cleaned up (since I ran it probably only 500 miles since the job in the 70's) I won't have to trailer it in for grinding! That would be great! I could get the head on, restored assemblies on and that much closer to driving again!

[Bob Zetnick]

DodgeKCL, thanks for the reply. Not sure what I did wrong on the roof as I repeated everything that I took out and also followed guidelines online regarding a roof insert for a '33 Plymouth which has the same sort of roof profile / ledge in the upper body. Maybe the padding is a little too thick...hmmmmmmm....it was necessary as the bows and chicken wire made lumps in the vinyl.....the fabric place had thinner foam, but I've heard not to use foam as it will disintegrate over time...I'll just have to look at it some more.

As far as the valves go I'm not much of a mechanic and so probably wouldn't be much of a DYI person as far as valve grinding. When I worked on the engine in the 70's I did get 2 new valves, but the remaining are original. I am hoping as I said above that maybe nearchoclatetown is right and since mileage has been very low since the 70's rebuild that maybe I can clean everything up and if all looks crisp that maybe I won't need the valve job.....I just want to get it right before I put the head back on.

[Guest 1930]

I have had at least two cars that I can remember right off the bat where the tops were far from flush and one being a 29 chevrolet and the other a 29 hudson, both used an ornate aluminum molding around the circumfrence of the top only because they stuck so far above

the metal. I dont think you did anything wrong with your top, as I pointed out I have alot of pictures of other DAs and they match ( From what I can tell ) what I have shown here. Dougs car is very original and his top is not flush also so I would not worry that you have done a thing wrong. I have a complete spare roof that I would like to fit into a car just for kicks but I dont have any more bodys.

As CKL pointed out using valve grinding compound and a suction cup is easy enough to do just to see how your valves sit in their seat at least, I would do it, clean them up and it cant hurt. While you have them apart it would be a good idea.

[Bob Zetnick]

Jason, thanks, I did take the insert off and took out the tacks from 3 sides of the frame. I took the cotton padding out and inserted a moving blanket I bought today and cut to size. The fact the moving blanket is sewn like a quilt reduces the thickness of the batting. I pulled the top fabric taut and the thickness of the top was greatly reduced. I think as DodgeKCL said the roof is just "proud" of the body by 1/4". Looks great!

My valves still aren't moving, so I'll keep working on them.