JohnBoyle
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Posts posted by JohnBoyle
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Don't get too excited.
A post by a "Guest" who can't even be bothered to become a free member and leaves no details on the cars available?
Somehow, I'm not sure whether the cars exist.
It sounds a bit fishy....let's be honest, there are not that many Stutzes out there for an unknown person to have a hoard of them.
Feel free to prove me wrong.
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Like many others, Paul helped me find my car and provided parts for its restoration.
He was missed, and often mentioned at the Stutz centennial event.
RIP Mr. Freehill.
BTW: I met the gentleman who bought the parts paterns from Mr. Freehill.
Once he sorts outr what he has, he'll post an item in the Stutz News.
I'll pass it along here.
John
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I'm told more than 100 members of the Stutz Club will be there and perhaps as many as 50 cars. The cars will be displayed East of the Speedway Museum.
I also understand the Stutzes will drive the track on Friday.
If you're in the area it will be worth a visit.
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Try a notice in Stutz News.
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Stutz Parts
in Stutz
Several months ago, I corresponeded with Mr. Freehill, and I hope I'm not violating any confidences if I say he replied that he is very ill and is no longer in the parts business.
I've heard that he sold his stock and patterns to another vendor, however I don't have confirmation of that or a name.
I'll post details if I find out more at the the upcoming (May 11-15) Stutz meet in Indianapolis.
Best wishes to Mr. Freehill and his family.
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Good luck and Please let us know what you come up with.
I've always wondered about Bearcat colors, the 1914 catalog lists four factory colors...Mercedes red, Vermillion, or Monitor grey.
I contacted the Koveleski family and inquired if they had any color photos of their car before its restoration in the early 1950s. Tony Koveleski bought it from a dealer who bought it from the original owner so I was hopeful some information on its original color survived. Sadly, they had none. That may have been our best chance to get color photos of an original color.
While there are several red Bearcats out there (I don't know if they're accurate colors) there are many others in non-factory colors (Black, Yellow, etc).
In fact here's the only one I've seen in grey...
http://www.collingsfoundation.org/images/AutoCollection/1914%20Stutz%20Bearcat.jpg
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Several Stutz Fire trucks are listed in the Club's Roster.
Only one is a 1923 and it's in Indiana.
It's listed only as a Pumper with a 600 GPM capacity. No serial number listed.
Do you have a serial?
Also, search for any fire truck clubs.
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A. Ballard...
Sorry, that's all I recall about the converted touring car. I wish I could remember what book I read that in. Perhaps it was one of the books by Ken Purdy (who himself had a Raceabout).
And I mis-wrote about the value of a Mercer.
In his 1961 book, The Treasury of the Automobile, Stein said that he was told of a potential buyer "...offering $10,000 for a nice Raceabout, with no takers". (Pg. 163)
A half-dozen years later in his 1967 book, The Great Cars, he repeats and updates the story: and praised Raceabout owners for not taking the $10,000 offer. "Not too long ago, a New Jersey man I know invested $31,000 in such a car, and unless our economy goes bang, a Raceabout may be worth $50,000 in a couple of years." (Pg. 179)
Also in the 1961 book Stein writes how Ralph Buckley, a well known restorer of the time, rebuilt his Raceabout:
"This Raceabout had been literally resurrected from junk: three-forths of the chassis frame, part o an engine; Buckley even had to make a new radiator and its brass surround". (Pg. 162)
So clearly, with any car that's approaching 100 years of age, there is a huge scope for it to be un-original.
Somehow, I'm sure the current owner of that car don't mind...because everything I've read or heard about a Raceabout has been positive.
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You might be in luck, the president of the Stutz Club, Norman Barrs, in London has a Supercharged Blackhawk...you might be able to see it for yourself or he might have photos.
PM me and I'll give you his office telephone.
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I somehow remember this TV re-creation riding on the railroad tracks for one TV episode !
Does anyone else remember this ?
Yes, they did it in the pilot film for the series/TV movie "Powderkeg".
The car used in that was a real 1914 Bearcat (serial 1403) currently owned by Marshall Matthews' estate in California.
I don't know the track of a Bearcat and whether it would really work on a standard U.S. railroad.
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Sure, here it is.
It may be humble, but it's mine...
It's fun and well designed. Barris did good work with dummy friction shocks and other details he probably didn't have to do for a TV car, since most film cars are "20 footers" at best.
By the way, I always credit Layden for his help in restoring my car. Thanks again.
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There is a Bear~Cat existing today that was actually re-created by A K Miller the famous Stutz collector/hoarder ~~~
A K Miller once told of putting his name on back of this car's dashboard before it was sold~~~
Many folks today think that this car is indeed the real thing !
I'll go out on a limb here and say that it wouldn't be too hard to do.
As I understand it, the Bearcats and the other Stutzes had similar running gear, all that would have to be done is shorten the chassis and relocate the gear/brake levers. And of course, make the seats, fuel tank and source a trunk.
BTW: early 1911-14 T-head Mercer Raceabouts have also been made out of touring cars.
As a kid, I read everything I could find on Bearcats and raceabouts and I saw in a book that someone modified a Mercer touring car to a Raceabout.
That was a big project, the steering column had to re re-raked, the chassis had to be not only shortened as I recall but the chassis siderails were shaved to a shallower depth.
Mercers, because of their rarity, have always been more valuable than Bearcats, so someone went to that much trouble and expense in the 50s or 60s. In the early 60s, Ralph Stein wrote that Mercers were selling for the unbelievable amount of $10,000. Of course, that was Rolls Royce or Ferrari GTO money back then.
By the time he wrote The American Automobile in 1971 (my first car book), he estimated the cost of a Bearcat at $40,000.
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To answer your question, the original open Bearcat was produced between 1912-16. After that, the cars were basically similar but had enclosed convertible bodies.
The "7 original cars left" number gets thrown around a great deal.
I don't buy it.
The Stutz Club lists about 30 1912-16 Bearcats in its roster.
Plus a friend who keep track of these things, knows of about a dozen whose owners are not in the Stutz Club, making for a possible total of 40 cars.
I'm guessing that 33 can't be re-bodies.
And Stutz factory records from the period don't exist, so that isn't going to answer our questions.
In fact, the factory couldn't even decide whether the car's name was Bearcat or Bear-Cat, official documents spell it both ways.
True, some have been re-bodied. Certainly, there aren't many remaining 1912-16 Stutz touring cars (Buldogs) and I believe the roadsters are extinct (it was basically a Bearcat with doors. One was the pace car for the 1912 Indy 500), so some of those that survived the 20s were possibly turned into Bearcats at a later date, perhaps as early as the 1930s (well ahead of the post-war antique car craze when their value began to rise).
But also, because of it's fame, it's very likely that simply more Bearcats survived (than touring cars) in the first place.
Basically for the same reasons a higher percentage of Corvettes have survived than Chevy sedans.
A well known Stutz restorer has never answered my queries on the topic.
He'd be able to shed some light on the touchy topic of re-bodies.
But at this late date, few people involved are around, or willing to talk, on the subject.
And sadly, it's hard to believe owners will come clean if and when their cars come up at auction.
I'd guess many don't know if their cars are original or not...and probably don't care.
That's why cars with known history bring larger amounts at auctions.
The late Tony Koveleski's car was sold a couple of years back for $1.4 million. Since then other Bearcats sold have brought far less. But the Koveleski car was a "no stories" original that he bought in the late 40s (he was basically the second owner, IIRC) and was well documented since.
If you're a Bearcat fan, you might do what I did and join the Stutz Club.
And buy a copy of the club book, The Splendid Stutz (expensive, but well worth it)and find the 1971 paperback, Racing Stutz by the late stutz expert Mark Howell. Oddly, that book has a photo of my car on the cover, one of the full-scale, all metal Bearcat replicas built by George Barris for the Bearcats! TV series in 1971. Probably the only vertical layout color photo they could find.
There is one early Bearcat owner I know who frequents this site...hopefully he'll make himself known to you.
Most Bearcat owners don't hang out here. Many, I'd suspect, are well-to-do collectors who have people maintain the cars for them so they don't need to come here for help or are just not that interested in Stutz history (or else they'd be in the club).
I'm a former journalist...and I have half a mind to write a book on the early Bearcat survivors. I'll be at the Stutz meet this May in Indianapolis and I might make some contacts there.
If anyone disagrees, knows differently, or can add to my suppositions as given above, please feel free to provide your thoughts on the subject.
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I am not anti hod rod at all. I am a firm believer that some vehicles simply should not be altered though. When you get into a handful of a certain vehicle surviving that is when I draw the line. There are so many "good" candidates for the hot rod world leave the odd balls alone.
Hear, hear!!!
Agree 100%
Some morons would put a SBC in Duesenberg.
Not only are they morons, they're unimaginative morons.
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Just a note to you non-Stutz club members letting you know the club is planning a special event to mark the 100th anniversay of Stutz Automobiles.
It will be held concurrently with the Indianapolis Motor Speedway's "100th Anniversary Indy 500 Celebration of Automobiles" beginning May 12.
Club members who register for the event will have a special party at the host hotel the evening of May 11. The next day will be an all-day bus tour of sites significant to Stutz history in the Indianapolis area including a tour of a private auto museum and ending up at the restored Stutz factory (now owned by a club member) and we'll get a special talk on the history of Stutz by historian John Rupp.
Friday will be spent at the Speedway displaying the cars, that evening well have dinner at the home of Willaim Thompson, former president of Stutz and which later served as the Indiana governor's mansion.
Throughout this time, member's cars wil be displayed at the Speedway along with the other cars selected to be a part of the Speedway's centennial event.
Saturday will be at the Speedway and members are invited to make special reservations to attend the IMS-sponsored "Legends Celebration" dinner at the speedway that night.
Sunday, May 15th the car display will continue and practice for this year's 500 race will begin.
If you're not a member of the Stutz Club, 2011 is a great year to join.
Stutz cars will be featured at many major auto events.
To join or learn more about the events, please go to www.stutzclub.org
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Do you have a year or body style?
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One other question, was Bearkat a model? I knew the name since boyhood, I always thought it was part of the Stutz Corp. name. Thanks!
Yes, the Bearcat was just a model name...though it was so famous that many people probably thought it was part of the company name.
Bearcats were built 1912-24 and again...as "Super Bearcats"...in 1931-33.
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I don't see it in my 2007 Club roster.
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I know the "Indianapolis" one was used until the mid-20s...
I don't know if "The car that made good in a day" one was ever used on the radiator badge.
I THINK they were just used on later reproductions..I have tie tacks with them.
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I just saw online that the 12-24 Bearcats will be profiled in the June 2010 issue of Collectable Automobile magazine.
The cover shot is of a 12 Bearcat, with a rare brass radiator, white with red pinstripes and red seats.
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Here's another name I found on the HCCA site...
Hand-crafted radiators for all makes/models since 1890 Don Cranford -- 831 455-2227
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Hit the internet...and the AACA website for radiator rebuildsers.
I had mine overhauled/cleaned/inspected by Stu Laidlaw in California. I'm thinking he could probably point you in the right direction.
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When I first saw this was about a starter, I was goingto suggest contacting Bill Greer. The problems with his Bearcat were huge. I'm glad Ivan beat me to it, he knows much more about the situation than I do.
I don't have anything else to add except to say that Bill's a hero of the Club and antique cars in general. A great guy.
Stutz Engine Paint---grey---1926 AA
in Stutz
Posted · Edited by JohnBoyle (see edit history)
Try Bill Hirsch Automotive...they have a range of engine paints and may know which exact shade is correct for Stutz, I know they have the formulas for other engine colors.
800-828-2061.
www.hirschauto.com
If they don't know, try placing an ad in the Stutz News.
Many club members have restored acrs ad wold be glad to help you out