ol' yeller
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Posts posted by ol' yeller
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I'm feeling like I need to defend myself a little here. While it may appear that I am "throwing parts" at my problem, there is logic behind what I am doing absent any codes to direct me. I replaced the MAF because I had an MAF code and the diagnostic tree led me to "Bad MAF". I replaced the ECM because the bad ground issues I had could have fried something inside the ECM. The car does run differently than it did prior to replacing the ECM. Also an ECM was way cheaper than a new ICM and coils. The Crank and Cam Position sensors were fairly cheap (under $30 each) so they were a logical choice. After having the injectors flow tested, they did show a problem with one so they did need to be rebuilt anyway. Changing the ICM seems like the next most logical choice figuring what I am experiencing and the Padgett upgrade is desirable to do even if I wasn't having problems.
It is very unlikely that the gas is bad. My car is garaged at home and in a secure fenced lot at work. I used half the tank and my experience with bad gas is that the problems usually become apparent soon after the fillup. If my problems persist, I'll have it tested.
If the Catalytic converter was bad wouldn't there be a code set? It is possible to even likely that it could be a problem given the miles on the car. I'd rather exhaust (pun intended) other easier possibilities first, however. I hate dealing with rust frozen bolts on the exhaust system.
I do want to thank everyone for their thoughts and input on what the problem could be. I really appreciate your help for a novice who does want to learn but more importantly, wants to be driving his Reatta again!
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Bad gas will usually smaell bad. The part that sounds odd is the "runs for a while then sputters". Just out of curiosity does it die about 125 seconds (two minutes) after starting ?
Gut feeling is still ICM - I sent a PM. There does seem to be a number of Pick-A-Part yards around Washington state. Delco was used in literally millions of GM cars with 3800s after 1990.
Padgett, thanks for the PM, I'll let you know. The car runs very roughly and will die in less than 30 seconds unless I feather the throttle. By doing that (2500-3000 RPM) I can keep it running (badly) as long as I want.
I don't think there will be a problem finding the ICM in a wrecking yard. I just went to the closest one and he wanted way more than I was willing to pay. I passed on it because I was certain I could find one at another yard. I'll probably have to wait until Saturday afternoon to do that.
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Thanks Ronnie, You were right. The injectors made absolutely no difference. I will call around and see if I can get a better price on a used ICM. This is really frustrating. How does the car know the order in which I replace parts and keep the bad one until after I replace everything else? How do it know???
For some of the other suggestions I really don't think there is bad gas. I had already used over half of the current tank and the car isn't in a place during the day that sketchy people would have acess to it.
Padgett, and others, thank you for the webpage and information. It really helps a novice like me. If the ICM doesn't fix it, I'm out of ideas.
Greg
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Today I took the ICM to the yard and they did come up with one. One of the mounting studs was hacksawed off but they did line up with the Motorola unit. Then he told me he wanted $100 for it. I passed as I seem to remember $40 being closer to what I read in the past. I'll call around on Wednesday and see if his price is in the ballpark. I will do the Padgett upgrade, I just didn't want to overpay.
I did pull the injectors and took them to a local Dr. Injector shop. They have a great reputation. They flow tested them first and found one was only flowing at 65%. That could do it. The rest were all within spec. They only charged $35 each to rebuild them and warrantee them for a year. I'm going to try and install them after dinner tonight.
Further bulletins as events warrent.
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but for $75...oy
My thought exactly!
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Today I went looking for the Padgett upgrade in Ignition modules. I used a '92 Pontiac Transport as the reference vehicle. Evidently GM used several different ICMs over the years and across product lines for the 3.8L If I get the Delco with the round coils, will it bolt to my existing bracket or will I need the bracket from the donor engine? Does it use the same electrical connection? Are the plug wires on opposite sides as my Motorola unit has? The yard is pulling it for me today and I'll pick it up this afternoon.
I also decided to have the injectors rebuilt. With 152K miles on them it certainly wouldn't hurt. I may be able to pick them up later this afternoon as well. They will bench flow test them prior to rebuilding them. If this doesn't work I am considering picking up an '89 3.8L engine that I have found locally for $75. It only has around 70K miles and has good oil pressure.
I don't think it is the Catalytic converter. But who knows? Thanks.
Greg
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25C is 77F so engine must never have run long enough to get warm, correct ? That is still in the "cold enrichment" range.
Correct, It only ran for a few minutes.
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You mentioned pulling the hose from the throttle control. Was this the one connected to the fuel pressure regulator? YES
Is the pcv valve in position and the rubber grommets in place? YES
Do you have a vacuum gauge to connect to the intake?
No, but I can get one
I know the engine doesn't run well, but should have around 18" Hg vacuum at warm idle. The standard rating for the fuel pressure regulator is 3 bar or 43.5 psi and should drop approximately one psi for every two inches Hg of manifold vacuum with engine running. The coolant temperature @ 25 deg.C will have the O2 sensor locked out and it won't be close to running closed loop. Can you get it warm enough to go closed loop so the O2 starts controlling the fuel system?
I can try
I know you mentioned replacing the MAF but you might try disconnecting it and start the engine. In a good running system, the engine will start and idle okay with it disconnected, although it will set a code. It will generally die if disconnected while running.
What will disconnecting the MAF show me? What am I looking for?
That injector pulse width looks very, very high. That looks like what I have seen at WOT and high rpm. IAC reading is high too, probably trying to keep the engine running. For some reason the spark advance is pinned at the max. value? Should be in the low 20's for warm idle. That all points to a control system problem or it is trying to cover for a vacuum leak or mechanical problem. The comment about the Central Power Supply causing odd problems was something I had not seen or heard of before, but our cars certainly have one.
I added my answers in your text.
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OK, I'm getting somewhere. Today prior to doing anything I checked again for codes. Surprise, it came up with 041 & 042. They were both history codes as they had an "h" after the code and the diagnostics said No "e" codes. 041 is a Cam Sensor code and 042 is an electronic spark timing code. A Cam sensor was only $25 so I replaced it with a new one and cleared the codes. No improvement in running but no more codes set.
I then began following the flow chart in FSM until it got to the part where I had to check voltages at the ECM connection. I am 56 years old somewhat overweight and have an inflamed ACL in my left shoulder. Getting a test probe into the correct connection was difficult to near impossible. At this point I decided to replace the ECM as I figured the power issues I had (reported in the prior thread) probably did bad things to the ECM. $89 later, I had the new ECM. I have read other posts about how tight the fit was but after unplugging the connections and dissassembling half the dash behind the glovebox, I slid it out, pulled the Prom from the old ECM, installed it in the new ECM and slid it back into place. It went in a whole lot easier than it came out. I fired up the car and it does run better, still rough, but better. Now, feathering the throttle actually makes a difference and I can keep the engine running at about 2500 RPM by feathering the throttle. If I let off the throttle, it runs roughly for about 30 seconds and dies. It will not idle for more than 30 seconds. No new codes set other than the battery disconnect code (552?) which I cleared.
I then remembered that I had the old IAC installed so I pulled it out and replaced it with the new one. No difference. I dropped one of the IAC screws onto the rag I placed under it but it went south when I tried to retrieve it. After pulling the cruise control diaphragm I gave up trying to find the stupid screw and went to the store and got several new ones. I hope I don't lose points when a judge sees one of the screws is slotted rather than phillips!
I then hooked up my inductive timing light to each of the plug wires and pointed it at the drivers seat to watch it. On each plug wire it would strobe flash as the engine ran. Then just prior to stalling it would go dark for a flash and then flash but not as fast as it did previously until the engine died. I would get a flash or two directly as the engine died.
As I haven't been able to locate an "injector noid" ( I think the local parts houses suspects I was sent on a Snipe hunt), I then disconnected the injector electrical connection, one at a time to see if it made a difference in the running of the engine. It didn't, it would start fine, idle up then begin to miss and then die. There was no fuel leaking when I pulled the vacuum connection on the throttle control.
To recap, I've replaced the plugs, the Crank Position Sensor, the Cam Position Sensor, the O2 Sensor, The MAF sensor, and now the ECM. I think I had multiple problems some of which caused the ECM to fail. Those were probably grounding issues. I really don't want to spend over $200 for a new ICM and as I understand, probably wouldn't fit anyway. Hopefully tomorrow I'll have some time to stop at a wrecking yard and pick up a good working Delco module rather than the Motorola unit I now have. Failing that I guess I could remove the injectors, take them to the local Dr Injector and have them tested. I am also considering replacing the plug wires as a precaution. The ones in there look OK but are probably pretty old.
Padgett, My reading of ED04 (which is the coolant temperature) was 25 That should be OK.
Here are the diagnostic codes currently;
ED01 .44
ED04 25
ED06 23.9
ED 07 45
ED08 70
ED10 12.3
ED11 20
ED12 0
ED16 0
ED17 0
ED18 0
ED19 128
ED20 128
ED21 4.7
ED22 105
ED23 14
ED98 1
ED99 9044
Greg
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Ronnie,
All 6 plugs were very dark and smelled of gas. I would think a bad injector would cause a stumble or hard start prior to failing and causing an almost non running condition. I assumed that the gas fouling was caused by the EFI supplying fuel while something was not allowing spark which was why I began replacing sensors like the CPS, the MAF and the O2 as well. I also had no idea how old the old plugs were. They did need changing and the skin on the back of my hands (after changing the rear bank) benifited from the aeration anyways.
This afternoon I will try starting the car with the throttle fully depressed but I sincerely doubt I can get the engine to rev to 2500 RPM. The throttle has little to no effect on the eninge at this point, except to hasten the stalling.
I am determined to find and fix this, whatever it takes. I miss driving my Reatta and its been well over a month now.
Greg
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I d ont think it is the timming chain,if it where loose you would ear it rattle,the one on my 88 was ratteling and the car ran fine,i then pulled the oil pan and the spring from the tensioner had fallen in the bottom of the pan,i was lucky and mannaged to put it back at its place by the oil pan openning,i had alot of fun....
I am hoping it isn't the timing chain. With as many miles as the car has on it, if I do replace the timing chain, I'll probably rebuild the engine as well or replace it with a supercharged version of the 3.8. Don't want to go there until I have to.
I'm going to spend some quality time this morning with my service manual checking out the fuel section. When the car dies, it does seem to make a spitting, or puff noise as it dies. Not sure if it is coming out the throttle body. It sure acts like what a way off timing issues was like on my old 300 V8s. I know there are many components that could affect timing including sensors, control modules, and even worn physical components all that weren't on my 40 year old V8s. I'm just trying to be smart about troubleshooting this problem rather than shooting in the dark. I'd love to be able to tell if this is a fuel problem or a spark problem. That would help me target my efforts. Not having an error code is making this a lot more difficult than I'd like. After spending some more time reading this morning, I am dedicating this afternoon to trying to find the problem. I do have access to parts houses but not wrecking yards today. It is a good day not to be a big football fan.
Greg
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Replace crankshaft position sender ????
Replaced the CPS. Original looked fine but I replaced it with a new one anyway. No difference.
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Two things:
1. When you had your alternator tested, did they check the "ripple"? If it has any ripple, it can cause you all kinds of grief with the ECM.
2. The fuel pressure...what is the "exact" specification for this engine? Going by my memory, which is fading fast, it should be 36 pounds. Also, it should drop when the engine starts, not stay at 40lbs. There should be a key on pressure and an idle pressure specified. Pull vacuum line off of regulator and see if any fuel comes out.
If the pressure is too high at all times, the engine will start but then will blubber its way to stalling as it slowly floods itself out. Might be bad fuel pressure regulator.
It was about a month ago when I had the alternator tested. I remember there were 3 tests. One of them was testing the rectifier bridge which was what my main concern was at that time. It passed all 3 tests but I don't remember what the other 2 tests were. I have never heard of a "ripple" test and I don't know if it was one of the 3 tests.
As I work on my cars alone, I was reading the pressure gauge upside down through the windshield as the car would sputter along. My readings were a close approximation at best but there was little fluctuation of the needle when the car was running (poorly). Feathering the throttle made little to no difference in the engine's RPM or smoothness. You make some good suggestions that are easy to do and don't cost anything. When I pulled the sparkplugs that were in the engine, they were very gas fouled so it could be an oversupply of fuel. I will try what you suggest this afternoon and report back this evening.
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Grab a Delco ignition at a U-Pull-It first. You will want one regardless.
What you are experiencing is not consistant with a loose timing chain, they do not heal. May be a good idea anyway but doubt that is the current problem.
40 psi even when stalling is good news, other modules are much easier to swap than a fuel pump.
Do you have access to an injector noid ?
How to Test Voltage to Fuel Injectors With Noid Light | eHow.com
Amazon.com: Alltrade 940580 Kit 73 Fuel Injection Test Noid Light Tool Set: Home Improvement (buy two and get free shipping...
I do not but I will check and see if I can find one either at a local parts house or at Amazon as you suggest. Worn injectors are very possible at 152K especially considering the slightly erratic idle I was experiencing before. Wouldn't worn injectors cause rough running prior to complete failure? The IAC helped but didn't completely cure it.
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Greg, most of this sounds similar to my sons Regal problems I experienced last summer.....It turned out to be injectors. Have you checked the resistance on any of them? Dave
I have not checked resistance at the injectors. I assume the service manual outlines the way to do it and what readings to expect. I will check there first. If an injector is plugged or worn, how would that show up on a rsistance test? Sorry, on the previous posting I explained that I am an old school car guy (1965 Skylarks). EFI and this computer control stuff is new to me but I am willing to learn as evidenced in what I have picked up on this problem so far. I hope LOL.
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I am starting a new thread as the old one was too long and getting kinda hard to follow. To recap, '90 coupe with 152,000 miles. Fires and dies or runs weakly for a few moments and dies. So far I have cleaned all 8 ground connections and the positive junction behind the battery. The battery cables have been inspected, cleaned and I verified a good connection at the battery. The alternator has been tested as good. I have checked all the vacuum hoses and connectors I could find. I have replaced the CPS, MAF, O2, and IAC with new. I have pulled the ECM connections and replaced them. I have also replaced all the sparkplugs as the old plugs were gas fouled.
When I replaced the MAF due to a MAF fault code, I cleared the codes. Now it won't set a new code at all. I did have sooty build-up in the throttle body and in the old MAF. After all this, there is still no change in the engine running.
Today I checked the fuel pressure at the rail. When I activated the key (on, not start), it immediately pressurized to 40 pounds. I heard a couple of injectors click and the pressure dropped to just under 20. Upon attempting to fire the engine the pressure immediately jumped to 40 and held. After about 6 attempts (fire & die), it did run, very poorly, for about 30 seconds and then died. Fuel pressure remained at 40 the entire time, even as it stalled.
In my mind this leaves either a bad ECM, a bad ignition module, or a loose timing chain. I am leaning towards the timing chain. I did not pull the Cam position sensor to see if I could detect looseness as the chain tensioner would probably adjust enough of the slack out so it would be hard to see.
With no codes I am shooting in the dark but that can get expensive fast. I am thinking of going to a wrecking yard next week and picking up a used Delco ICM and coil pack to replace the Motorola unit that is currently on there now. I assume any "C" code 3.8 would work. What cars (and years) should I be looking for? A rebuilt ECM can be bought at the local Carquest for around $130 exchange. There are no Advance Parts houses in my area. It just behaves like a timing issue which is why I am leaning towards the timing chain. Thoughts?
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I've made some decisions. First, I am keeping the Reatta. I was going through some life choices (no, not those life choices) and one of the choices I was exploring was getting rid of all 3 of my collector Buicks and buying a nice "Guy's" car like a C6 Corvette. I've decided that I can't emotionally part with Ol' Yeller, my 65 Skylark hardtop. My 4 door Skylark doesn't really cost me anything except storage fees and insurance which both are minimal. This is my second Reatta.
Frankly, what has led me to deciding to keep this car is twofold. First, the outpouring of support from all of you. I truly appreciate everyone's desire to help me, a complete stranger and novice to the technical side of the complicated world of Reatta. Your patience and ability has made me feel one with the Reatta brotherhood. I am actually looking forward to not only fixing the current problem but also years of ownership that lie ahead. The second reason is much more practical. I can't sell it in its current condition and after spending what I have and what I will still have to, I would be fixing this car for the next buyer. That should be me!
This thread is getting pretty long so it would probably be best to end this thread here and start a new one as warranted. To answer the questions recently asked; No I haven't checked for spark when it stalls as it fires right up and stalls again. If it fires, it has spark, right? I will pick up a cheap fuel pressure gauge and check the pressure myself at the fuel rails. As it can be counted on to run poorly all the time now, if it has a fuel delivery problem, it should show up on the gauge. As I have decided to keep the car, if I replace the ECM, it will probably be with a new one from a local parts house, after I run down the other possibilities. I will also search the forum to figure out what I need as an ICM. I suspect it is the Delco version with the round coils and I will pick that up in a wrecking yard, again after I exhaust the other cheaper possibilities. The soot in the throttle body area is just powdered soot, not wet or gummy.
While I did use this car daily I don't need to have it always available as I have several other cars to use primarily my '99 V10 F250. At 10 MPG I do have an incentive to get the Reatta back on the road however. When I was younger, I had no money so I had to learn how to repair my vehicles myself. That situation does lead to frustration at times when the car needs to running on Monday morning to get you to work. At this point in my life I can put the tools down, rather than throw them in frustration, go inside and think about the problem for a day or so and then tackle it anew. I say that so you will know why I may not have an answer to your helpful suggestions right away. In the coming week or so, I will check my fuel pressure, and then begin to isolate the other possibilties. I will start a new thread with my findings and hopefully resolution on what the problem was.
It was the helpfulness of you folks that has brought me back into the Reatta brotherhood and I truly do thank and appreciate everyone's advice and experiences. Now where did I put that renewal form for the RDIV?
Greg
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OK, time has come to face some realities. I like my Reatta. I love the Maui Blue, I love the sunroof, I love having a car you don't see everyday. The car is only worth $2,500 on a good day in running condition. I already have well over that invested in my year and a half of ownership. In its current condition, I'd be lucky to get $500 for it.
Despite the legendary longevity of the venerable 3800, I fear this one is nearing the end of its life. It has several non serious oil leaks. It has the soot problem in the throttle body as well as the current problem which hasn't been resolved. After spending over $700 on this current problem I am no closer to resolving the current issue than when I started. The car has 152,000 miles on it. I have no idea if the transmission has ever been rebuilt. I suspect it is all original. When it needs a rebuild, it will probably run me $2,000.
The ABS did give me a problem a couple of weeks ago. Temps were in the low 20's. After about 5 minutes I had a very hard pedal. After numerous pumpings, the brakes began working as usual. Neither light lit at any time. If the ABS needs an overhaul, I'm looking at $500-$1,000.
Do I part it out? Do I slog along, get it running and sell it? Do I have a junkyark come and get it? Do I bite the bullet, and rebuild the engine or replace it with a supercharged version? A few posts ago I stated that I wasn't going to jump off the deep end. I think the water has gotten deeper the last few days and the shallow end has dissappeared. On the plus side of the ledger, the body and original paint is in great shape, no dents or rust with only a few rock chips in the front. The interior is also in in good shape only needing a new carpet and steering wheel cover. I have never let my wallet rule the day when it comes to my collector cars but in this economy I do need to at least think about it.
If I start down the path by putting around $2K into rebuilding the engine or changing in a supercharged 3800, I will be comitted to the eventual tranny rebuild and probably an ABS repair. Add in another $300-$400 for the interior repairs. That means I could have $5,000 on top of what I have already spent in a car worth $2,500. On the other hand, buying a new or used car in the $5,000 price range could bring its own problems and most likely won't have a rebuilt drivetrain.
Do I keep running down the rabbit trails until I fix the current problem, do I unload this mother, or do I build my dream Reatta? Your insights and advice is very much appreciated.
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I replaced the MAF with a known good one with no change in condition. As of now, the car won't run more than 10-15 seconds. Feathering the throttle will get it to run (very poorly) for about another 5 seconds until stalling. This is the same as it was prior to replacing the MAF. I then removed the negative battery cable and then R&Red the connections at the ECM. I reattached the battery cable, then went into diagnostics and cleared all codes. The car started and ran as before but it stalls prior to lighting the SES light. As a result there are now no codes set to troubleshoot.
I'm at a loss again. At this point, my seat of the pants diagnostic ability (which has cost me well over $500 so far to no avail) has me thinking it's either the ECM, the timing chain, or maybe even the ignition module. With over 152,000 miles and given the sooty intake area I'm really leaning towards the timing chain set. Where do I go from here??
Greg
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Not the MAF. Tomorrow I'll pull the ECM and check connections. I will clear the codes again and see if anything sets. Further bulletins as events warrant.
Greg
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Not going off the deep end, just thinking. On Wednesday AM I'll have some time to run the test sequence for the MAF code. That should tell me if the problem is in a connection or the MAF itself. If it's bad then I'll probably bite the bullet and buy a new one. Prior to that I will R&R the ECM connections. I don't plan to continue to throw parts at the problem.
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The "O" ring was still in place and it seemed pliable enough. The car has 152K miles on it so a spring chicken she ain't but I thought these 3.8L would last 200K easy. As an aside, the car has never smoked out the tailpipe even under hard accelleration. Could it be a bad EGR causing the soot? I was thinking of a valve timing issue but I really didn't want to go there. I assume the timing chain is original although I have only owned the car for a year and a half. Now that I think about it , a worn, sloppy, loose timing chain could cause the issues I am having. It could cause the soot that fouls the MAF and set the MAF code. It could also be the reason why the cam sensor is putting out a code.
On a local CL there is an 89 Reatta engine for sale with around 70K miles on it for $75. I may look ino picking that up. As long as it's a "C" code, it should swap in fine shouldn't it? I'm not thinking of getting it to cure my current problem but rather to keep for when I'll evntually need one.
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First, I'd like to thank Ronnie in particular for leading this old horse to the water hole. I knew I was thirsty but wasn't sure I could find it on my own. The diagnostic procedure can be a little intimidating to the uninitiated. I was worried that I'd cause something to change and begin a death spiral of problems. Thanks to his instruction, I can see how this is a very nice feature to have incororated into a 20 year old car.
I did some more careful reading of the service manual last night (now that I know the codes) and right there in black and white is the procedure to troubleshoot each of the codes. It looks like a little quality time with a DVM and test light will help me isolate what is causing the codes. I will start with the 034 code first as that is the one related to the MAF. To answer the questions, last week when the car was running, I did do the tap test with the butt end of a screwdriver to the MAF with no change in running condition. I am concerned as to how black and sooty the MAF, IAC, and throttle body opening are. What would cause that?
The shop did a fuel pressure check and found it to be very good. It is possible that a relay could trigger and shut off fuel which would cause the stalling but why would it cause the engine to run poorly?
Padgett and Dave, R&Ring the ECM connections is a good, easy, and cheap thing to do. I will do that as well right after I diagnose the MAF. I can't just swap out the MAF as I don't have a spare and they are pretty expensive. If the diagnostic flow chart points to a bad MAF I guess I'll just have to suck it up and buy a new one. The flow chart shows that a bad connection at the ECM could cause an "open" in the test.
The only thing I had done to the car prior to the problem was changing the IAC and cleaning the IAC cavity, the MAF and throttle body opening. I was very careful not to touch the actual wire sensors of the MAF with anything except MAF cleaner. It really didn't clean up very well nor did anything else except to remove the loose soot. The actual components remained very dark in color. Yesterday they were again covered in soot. After the cleaning the car did run better for about a month and then this happened. About 6 months prior to the cleaning I did have a shop replace a water pump, the A/C compressor and recharge the A/C with R134a. That's about all I have done to the car mechanically since I bought it a year and a half ago.
Greg
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I decided to take a minute and see what the diagnostics said. It was wierd. Sometimes when I cycled the key and hit the on & temp up button, it would say "no E codes. If I cycled it again it showed E034H, E041C, E 042H, and 6552H. Sometimes I'd get a symbol that looked like a square box with no bottom and the codes following the symbol, 025H, 026H and 034H. I'll check the service manual but some enlightenment would be good. I did step through the sensor readings for the ECM, the BCM, the IPC and the SIR. I'll publish those if you think they'd be helpful. By the way, these are fresh codes since my repairs this afternoon. I did not start the car at any time taking these readings. Thanks again.
Greg
It Never Fails Part II
in Buick Reatta
Posted · Edited by ol' yeller (see edit history)
I added my answers in the quote above. I'm all about cheap and easy. I'd love to isolate the problem further. Thanks.
Greg