kfle
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Posts posted by kfle
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1 hour ago, 42319DB34 said:
Until recently ,
Edd V. Cole of Richlands , Va,
later of Hillsville , Va.
was the owner of a 1918 V8 roadster
grey body , black top and fenders with red wire wheels / non sides
he purchased @ Hershey in 1980.
and completed restoration on 1982 ....
Thanks for sharing. You said until recently....do you know where it is now?
kevin
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44 minutes ago, keiser31 said:
EXCELLENT! Great to know that the lesser known makes are getting attention. That coupe is a cute little thing.
Thanks! The coupe is a unique one and actually not so little. It is a 127 1/4” wheelbase. It has the big Cole V8 that produces 80HP.
We think that Cole deserves some attention.
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I wanted to let others know that my son and I have taken over the known Cole Motor Company Car registry from the now defunct Cole Motor Car Club of America and are in the process of updating the known car information and seeing if we can find more survivors. My son and I own two Cole cars. One is a 1913 Series 9 touring car and one is a one of one 1923 2 person coupe that was a test car that JJ Cole built for his son. Both cars were Cole family cars and we have picked up quite a passion for the car brand and history. We built a friendship with Leroy Cole who was the leader of the Cole Motor Club and registry until it dissolved in 2010. He transferred to us all known information about the cars as well as lots of Cole history and documentation. He also passed on the bulk of his extensive Cole library to the Gilmore Car Museum research library.
Our goal is to update the registry as well as to share and expand the knowledge and history about the brand. We have created a website that we will continue to update and add to. I have posted the known car registry on the site minus any personal information and will make updates to it as we obtain it. I also will be adding more pictures and other information about the cars as time goes on. The link to the new registry website is http://colemotorcarregistry.com/.
Here is also a picture of our two cars as they are today and then an old newspaper article from 1960 and a picture of both cars sitting in the basement of the old Cole Motor car factory. The newspaper article has a couple of typos on dates. If you own a Cole or know someone that owns a Cole, I would love to hear from you as another goal is to create a network for Cole car owners.
Thanks,
Kevin
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14 minutes ago, 8E45E said:
Thanks for the information. The last time I saw the mountain wagon in Edmonton was in 1979. So for sh!ts & giggles, I Googled 'Stanley steamer mountain wagon' along with the Edmonton owner's name and got this very interesting website: http://www.stanleyregister.net/MW.html According to that website, his was chassis #6600.
Craig
That is a great website! There are way more of those than I ever would have thought. Awesome vehicle though.
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1 hour ago, 8E45E said:
I wonder if that Stanley Steamer mountain wagon belonged to someone in Edmonton in the 1970's.
Craig
Right on the running board you can see a sign for Gull Lake Transportation company. Apparently it was used as transportation on Gull Lake in Michigan for it's life. Gull lake was the wealthy vacation home place in West Michigan in the early 1900's.
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10 hours ago, 4Hud said:
Wow. That is goood stuff. An Oldsmobile Limited, I guess one doesn't see too many of those out in the sunlight these days.
Yes, that Oldsmobile limited sure was a beauty! I was surprised that it didn't win an award in the class. There was also a great Pope Hartford next to it that did win an award. A 1903 Packard won best in class for the gas light class.
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Love those fins! I’ll stop by and check it out and say hi.
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16 hours ago, Brass is Best said:
The 40th Concours d'elegance of America will be help Sunday at The Inn as St' John's in Plymouth Michigan.
Link to show: http://concoursusa.org/
Are you going? I will have my 1913 Cole in Circle A at the event. The weather looks great for the weekend. There should be lots of wonderful autos there as always!
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I love going to these types of meet ups with my pre war cars. In the Detroit area they are called car cruises and some of them are weekly and some or one off events. You are correct that you do not see many pre war cars at these at all. The reason I take my pre war cars to these events is because people are highly interested in the cars. Lots of great questions, lots of people thanking me for bringing the car out, lots of people saying it is so nice to see something besides a hot rod or muscle car, etc. Of course there are lots of people not interested either, and that is ok. I do not go for awards and I am not a big fan of judging either(just not my thing), but so far this summer the cars have been bringing home the awards. The 31 Model A got a peoples choice award at the cruising with the classics Wednesday evening event and then it got best in show at another local cruise in. Of course it was the only pre war car there were probably 100-200 cars at each event. The 1922 Maxwell got the peoples choice top 5 award at a show called the Wilson Barn cruise where there were 400 cars and probably only about 4 pre war cars total there. It also won the peoples choice at the depot town Thursday night weekly cruise. All of the peoples choice were done by voting so that tells me that people are really enjoying seeing and talking about the cars so I will continue to bring them out to share with others!
Typical Depot Town Thursday Cruise night and it goes for three city blocks.
The Maxwell with the award
Another typical Monday night cruise night at a different place
The Maxwell at the same event when it was just getting started
Here is the Model A at a different Wednesday evening event
So I say bring those old cars out and don't assume people don't want to see them just because there are no other pre war cars at the event!
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Others had some good ideas on getting involved in the local clubs, though this brings up an issue and I even went through this myself a year ago. I have posted in other threads about my start in the pre war car hobby just over a year ago and my 17 year old son is highly interested in prewar cars as well. I live in the Detroit area and when I tried to find information on local clubs and even more information on my Model A at the time it was very hard to find something. So how does someone who is new to this hobby, especially the pre war era find out a club to join or information about potential cars to get into? Model A's are easier because there are forums, facebook pages, and other groups online but it even took me a good bit of time to find those and to get involved. My son always tells me that information is just too hard to find. When we does searches you can find cars for sale, but not much in depth information.
The younger generation lives online and that is how they find all information. If they want to join a club on old cars, they will search on google or ask Siri. If they want to learn how they would even buy a pre war car they will do the same, if they want to know if it would be hard to maintain a pre war car they would do the same. Basically to the generations that grew up with tech, if it does not come up when they do a search or even multiple searches, then it doesn't exist. I went through this frustration myself trying to find a local club of MARC to join and there are 4 of them in the Metro Detroit area. When I tried to search online all I could find is a list clubs for the whole state of Michigan with no real descriptor about what club covers what, what type of things they do, how many members, etc. All there was essentially was a address and a phone number and only a few had email addresses. I didn't even discover the AACA until almost a year after I acquired my first pre war car. Right now, many in the younger generation are dependent upon having a dad like me or a grandfather like the original poster to guide them and get them started. What about all of the potential people for the hobby who love old cars but have no one to guide them?
Think about the experience for someone like your granddaughter if we had a website or even an app that was easily found through searches that made it easy to do the following
1. Gives a description of the different eras of cars, common characteristics, etc.
2. Has a section about what it takes to maintain a car, especially entry level
3. Goes over the difference between a driver class car, a show car, and a fine points type of car
4. Process to own your first pre war car - restoration, older restoration, original, etc.
5. Difference in valuation of cars
6. Club finder using your zip code where you just punch in your zip code and it finds the closest clubs for you
7. expert or car friend finder - AACA, HCCA, MARC, CCCA, etc. all have their membership roster and most have the type of car their members own. If there was an opt in for people then if someone wanted to find people with a certain car they own then it would be a matching service where people with similar cars can easily connect through technology. This would not be a searchable database so anyone could search and just find out peoples info, this would be through the site and app where you would get an alert and it would be your choice to connect, similar to how friends are done on Facebook.
There is more you could do, but you get the idea. This is probably one of the biggest things we could do to help the next generation. There is a huge awareness and information gap and if we do not make awareness and information highly accessible to them in the ways that they consume the information, than the barrier gets greater and greater. This is an area that the AACA could make some investment in to really improve the hobby.
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7 hours ago, trimacar said:
I just looked at a 1920 Cole touring, that needs a full restoration, and is getting ready to have same in a well known restoration shop.
It needs a lot of parts, missing carb, top irons and bows, seats, and a lot of other stuff.
If anyone knows of a parts stash out there, please let me know. Also, any literature, or copies of literature, for a 1920 would be appreciated. I've been asked to help in the research and restoration of the car.
I could not find a body or serial tag anywhere, is there a specific place that a number might be stamped?
Parts are going to be tough as you already know. I am not sure on the 20 but the serial numbers until 15 were on a plate at the base of the driver seat. There also was an engine tag on the front right of the engine compartment. A gentelman by the name of Leroy Cole ran the Cole club for 20 years before it stopped in 2009. He just donated a huge library of Cole documentation to the Gilmore car museum recently. So the Gilmore should have lots of documentation on the 1920. I know there were also original blue prints and such but not sure if there was some from the 20.
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On 7/1/2018 at 4:47 PM, Paul Dobbin said:
Both had an odd driving
arrangement with the gas pedal between the brake & clutch pedals.
yes, this was the driving arrangement for the old Coles. Here is a picture of mine with the pedal arrangement. The gas pedal is the silver one between the clutch and the brake.
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8 hours ago, mike6024 said:
Some Cole pics. In the second, the Cole is labeled No 5 in the center. They are 1913's.
Thanks for sharing Mike. The #5 pic in the center of that page is actually a 1912 Cole Model 30. In late 1912/1913 Cole switched to complete Delco electric systems including lighting that has different cowl lights. Given the limited information that is still out there today on Cole cars, I can just imagine how hard it was to truly identify a car in 1950 without the internet. I was lucky enough to get a lot of documentation with my Cole, including the complete dealer bulletins and the original dealer advertising book from 1913.
Also, JJ Cole was an aviator as well. That balloon is what they did for the launch of the Cole Aero 8. Here is a picture from the 1917 Cole dealer bulletin that was for the launch of the Aero-Eight model
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14 hours ago, Paul Dobbin said:
Kevin,
I told you this was a 15, it's actually Bud Stanley's14 Cole Touring.
(The white one). He used it on Millard Neuman's Pan Am Tours until
he was able to upgrade to a 12 American Fiat Touring.
The black Roadster is also a 14 Cole. Both had an odd driving
arrangement with the gas pedal between the brake & clutch pedals.
Pictures taken at Heritage Village, Largo FL during Pin-MAR's "Picnic
in the Park". (1988-2010) A Easter Saturday picnic for 1959 & older
vehicles with participants in period clothing. It was the highlight of the
year for central Florida old car folks.
Paul, would love to see the pictures, but hey didn't come through.
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23 minutes ago, SC38DLS said:
Look who is buying cars today. Does the younger generation really care about the color of a car or even the car itself? I know it has been said before but if you take the actual name off 90% of the mainstream (excluding exotics) can anyone tell what make/model they are?
The auto companies build what they can sell. If the public doesn’t demand thru what they purchase there will only be what gives the mfg the biggest profit. Supply and demand go together one drives the other it is up to us, the consumer, to make demand more important. This may set some off but think of the Edsel, even though it was considered a well built car, it was so ugly it failed to bring the sales Ford needed.
We keep saying the antique car hobby is dying doesn’t that go hand in hand with this same state of modern style demand?
Dave S
I am not quite sure that generalization about the younger generations not caring about the color or style. If you talk to people they actually really like color and differentiation - just look at the amount of younger people who change rims on cars. For the average consumer today though it comes down to price and function. This is the same thing with modern design. This is becoming prevalent in homes because of less maintenance, less cleaning, less dusting, price, etc.
I just saw in the Detroit Free Press yesterday, in an automotive article it talked about how in the US market Dodge has bucked the trend of the lowering sales of cars. We know that Dodge chargers and challengers are the car that is different then other cars as they have different colors, stripes, and other differences.
Here is from the Free Press “Despite a shift toward utility vehicles in the United States over the past decade, the Dodge Charger and Challenger continue to buck the trend,” Beahm said in a news release. "Charger is on track to lead the large car segment in the United States for the fifth straight year in 2018, and we intend to keep that string alive by updating the product to deliver the performance and capability that our customers demand.”
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This is very analogous to the early days of autos. Even Henry Ford himself started out with nice color cars, brass accents and other nice looking components. Then when Ford went to the assembly line with the Model T to standardize and lower the prices of cars as much as possible, things went to very basic and all black. The specific goal at the time was all about cost and speed of production and you cannot have much variance if you want to accomplish that. The industry seems to go through phases and a lot of that is based on what the consumer wants as well.
What is the old famous Model T line? 'You can have any color you want as long as it is black"
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20 hours ago, Spinneyhill said:
Great story! It is interesting the three drivers are all wearing horse riding clothing, like cavalry riders.
It was pretty cruel on the bear, though.
yes, it was like a great west adventure. I agree about the bear and they were definitely different times then. The early promotions that were happening by the auto industry were very over the top at times. Also, it wasn't on the original map there but they also went down into Mexico. I have a picture of JJ Cole and the group outside of a Mexican jail in Juarez and also a newspaper clipping from the area.
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On 6/6/2018 at 9:19 AM, PreWarQc said:
Well, I have red all your posts (except 1) and I understand and even agree with some of the information that is conveyed. And yes, nobody knows what the future holds and the prices could drop less than what I predict. I might be wrong, but I see more evidence behind my perspective; the biggest one being the absence of interest from people under 60. But I do agree with the fact that younger guys might have a change in taste when it comes to collector cars as they grow older. It’s a big leap from having interests in a, let say Toyota Supra to a 1920 Chandler, but it is possible. And yes, the pre 42’ cars get fewer and fewer because some are not kept in running order, and none are obviously build, so the supply does get smaller every year. But don’t forget that the market is getting fed from the top also. Fox body Mustangs are now collector cars so are a lot of cars from the 80’s-90’s… Camaro, VW Golf, BMW, Acura, Toyota Supra, Celica... and the list goes on. There are a lot of those cars on the market, and young guys are really into them. Also, don’t forget that younger guys have in general, less interest in cars, are more in debt and have less disposable income than older generations.
What I was truly hoping to do here was to debunk what I was thinking and build a case to justify a potential 20k transaction but it really did the opposite for me. In hindsight I think it was foolish of me to think that guys who own and have invested a lot of money in those cars would have a discussion about a possible crash in the market. I appreciate those who were able to cross over their personal interest in the market and try and make a neutral analysis of what I was writing. I honestly hope the market holds and wish none of you lose any money. Above all, I wish that most of these cars will still be around in 20+ years. I am far too conservative to join the party at this stage of the market. I will still be thrilled when I go to museums and car shows and I’ll continue to enjoy them that way. I will obviously stay in the market but I’ll buy something more affordable, I’m probably poorer than I thought if I’m not willing to put 20k on something I love because I’m too worried about its value…
I am new to the AACA over the last few weeks so I just ran across this thread yesterday and it is interesting. So much anecdotal information and thoughts based on local perceptions that no conclusion could ever be made on this topic. I am a gen X'er and well under the age of 71. I just got into this 'hobby' about a year and half ago and posted my start in the another thread. I started with a 31 Model A and fell in love and then added two more early pre war cars this year. Here are my thoughts and perceptions as well as anecdotal information to date.
1. I did not look at the purchase of any of my cars as an investment. I purchased them all because I fell in love with them, thought about what I wanted to do with them, and purchased each one for that reason. Why do you buy a new modern car? You know that as soon as you drive off the lot it will lose 25% of it's value, yet people do it. Why do you invest in a big education at the best schools for your kids? The new ROI numbers on that are showing that it takes 30 years to pay back the initial investment on those high priced schools in today world, yet again people continue to do this. The point is, that if you take a complete ROI view on anything you will never end up getting anything you may want or enjoy because you are too worried about what your return on investment will be! Yes of course you do need to be smart with your money but with cars and other hobbies you should also look at return on your time (ROT), return on your fun (ROF) and return on your sanity (ROS).
2. I joined the local Model A club and yes there are a lot of older members in the club. The other side of that is that we have added 4 gen x'ers to the club over the last 18 months. We also do see the Gen X's bringing their kids on the meetings and tours as well. Now not everyone wants to go to clubs or meetings these days, but after I purchased my Model A I found out that there were 3 other gen X'ers in my neighborhood that owned model A's. One of them inherited it and 3 of us purchased ours. There are younger people purchasing these cars but they are not into clubs and gatherings as much because of time commitments. Heck, I am in the club but I cannot keep up with the people who are retired and all of the lunches, tours, and get togethers. I probably attend 33% of what goes on in the club. So you cannot use club membership, participation on tours, etc. to gauge whether young people like the hobby or pre war cars.
3. As far as the hypothesis that there will be no one to buy pre war cars in the future, I doubt it. You will always have three types of people in cars, 1. the ones that want the best, have a lot of disposable income to buy the best, and are diversifying their portfolios as they have already invested in art, wine, etc. 2. The people that want to have the car, to work on it, take it to shows, have it judged, etc. and 3. the person that wants to have an old car to drive around, show it in the neighborhood and that's about it. My own observation and from talking to people is that I see the categories of number 1 and number 3 increasing while number 2 is decreasing. I will admit it, I do not have much interest at all in having my car judged by someone and telling me if it is 100% correct or not. I really just want cars that I can enjoy, drive, take to some shows, share the car and knowledge with others and things like that. I also cant wait to get my 1913 out for some HCCA tours. To me it is all about having some fun, getting out there with the cars, and escaping the high paced anxiety ridden modern world.
4. As far as purchasing a pre war car, I have purchased three in the last 18 months. I bought one from a classic car dealer (there are many in Michigan), one from a private party, and one from an auction. All three experiences were very pleasant and I thought I got each car at a fair value after I did research on each one. Now for the auction, I acquired the 1913 Cole from a museum and the other three bidders on the car were all Gen X'ers and the car went for well over the reserve. Also, I still talk to the classic car dealer where I purchased my Model A and they have sold 10 Model A's over the past 8 months. Also, we had someone pass away in our local Model A club and they had a nice Model A sedan that had some special attributes to it and the other members of the club thought the asking price was way too high. Well, it ended up selling for full price to someone in Germany. We have to remember that it is a global market and there are becoming many people around the world that have quite a bit of disposable income and shipping is relatively simple now. Essentially we cant just look at anecdotal observations locally and think that this is representative of the global market place.
5. I love to go to the local car shows and cruise ins with my pre war cars and I will tell you that my cars have received more attention than many of the other cars there and I always have a crowd around them. I took my 1922 Maxwell to a show called the Wilson Barn show that had over 400 cars. I was parked right next to a 1992 Mustang 5.0 on one side, a 1962 Corvette on the other side and across the row from me was a 1985 Chrysler New Yorker and then a 1976 VW Bus. There were probably less than 10 pre war cars there in total. People of all ages stopped by and wanted to learn more about the car, take their picture with the car, find out more about owning a car like that, etc. My favorite conversation of the whole show was with three young millennials about how the 31" wheels were so cool and they thought big rims on cars was a modern thing! Well at the awards the Maxwell won the top 5 peoples choice awards which was done by people voting on their top 5 favorite cars at the show. I also had a similar situation with my Model A where it won the people's choice award at another local car show with 200 cars. I am finding that people love these cars and want to learn more about it. Everywhere I take them they put a smile on people's faces, and most of all they put a smile on mine!
Overall, my experiences and observations have been almost the opposite of yours. The market, the hobby, and what people are doing with their pre war cars is evolving but that doesn't mean that things are going to crash. This happens every generation and if there were forums and social media decades ago we would probably be able to search a very similar conversation!
Good luck to you on your journey and the personal decisions that only you can make.
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For me, there is no going back to when I was a kid or a special connection to my dad or grandpa. Growing up, cars were for transportation and that is all. I realized I was a car guy about 18 months ago. My 20 year old daughter wanted a 70's Volkswagen camper bus so she could drive it and go camping. Ill be honest, I thought she was a little crazy because I thought of the maintenance and how unreliable it would probably be. Being supportive, my wife and I took her to a place that sold classic cars and had a 1978 there. Well, as we were walking to the place where they had the VW, I saw a car up on a lift that they had just received and they were taking pictures of it to list for sale. I didn't even know what kind of car it was but I knew I loved it. My wife thought it looked really cool as well. After we looked at the VW Bus, we went and looked at the car we saw and found out it was a 1931 Ford Model A. After we left the place all night long all I could think about was that beautiful Model A and how enjoyable it would be to drive around. My wife and I talked about it and then the next day we went back and bought it. Since then my 17 year old son has been doing a lot with me and the cars and him and I have purchased other cars. Also, my daughter got her VW bus and my wife even got her own classic car. Who knew that that trip to look at the VW bus would change our family for ever and throw us in deep to being car people!
Here is the picture I took that day of the Model A up on the lift.
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3 hours ago, Mark Shaw said:
There are ten Cole cars listed in the current HCCA roster...
Thanks, I joined HCCA recently and have not received the roster yet.
I will take a look.
Kevin
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15 hours ago, Paul Dobbin said:
A friend of mine, Bud Stanley (Now Deceased) restored a 1915 Cole Touring car in off white with red leather interior. Awesome looking car that he used for Pan America Tours. Sold it an got a 1912 American Fiat to be able to keep up with the other pre-1916 cars. Bud had the Tony Curtis look in that Cole and the Cole looked as elegant as the great Leslie. I miss them both.
That sounds like a beautiful car! I would like to see that sometime and I wonder where it is? Thanks for sharing the story.
Kevin
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15 hours ago, poci1957 said:
The Cole DOES have a cool look with that cowl and windshield. In fact the whole style seems advanced for a medium priced 1913, I was not aware how nice they look, Todd C
I am partial, but they are even nicer looking in person. Not only the design of the car, but the attention to detail and quality throughout is superb. They also had quite an early following in DC with Politicians as well. These two pictures are from an original 1913 Bulletin from Cole.
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10 hours ago, 29 franklin said:
A buddy of mine in the Franklin club has a Cole. he lives in North Jersey. I will tell him about this
Thanks, I appreciate it!
Kevin
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4 hours ago, poci1957 said:
I am very impressed that a beginner would dive into something like a Cole and a Maxwell......kudos to you for going seriously old school and out of the mainstream, great to see, Todd C
Thank you and I appreciate it! I have always believe that you need to follow your passions and go for it. I also had a lot of encouragement from my 17 year old son who has fallen in love with old cars too.
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Updating the Cole Motor Car Company Registry
in General Discussion
Posted
Thanks! If you dig it out of the box message me a picture of it. I may be interested in it.
kevin