Chase392

" I said let the clutch out slowly!"

Hello Alan, I hope the holidays went well for you . I've had little time to do much besides take pictures myself that last few weeks. I will definitely do some reseach on Fageol trucks and see if I can find my driven axle. If it did come a truck I don't believe it was a very large one... the brakes are too small. They are, IIRC, 12" drums. Not tiny but the pics you sent me of an ALF driven axle and couple pics I've been able to find of Seagraves.... they appear to have larger brakes. I'm still unsure how to tackle the wheels.... other than I don't want wooden wheels.... it may be my ignorance and inexperience showing but the thought of a wheel failure terrifies me. I worry about hitting an imperfection in the road at speed (always a possibility in Houston), having a wheel collapse.... they'd be picking my carcass out of pile of splinters with a T-head on top of it. I'm still torn on Rudge vs. Buffalo wheels.... I really need to figure out what bearings fit my spindles and driven axle. Then I can find out if Rudge hubs are available or if # 6 Buffalo hubs will even fit. At this point I'm not even sure if the same hubs will fit front and rear. All of the European race cars and LSR cars have Rudge wheels, so of course I'm fond of them... but at the same time Buffalo wheels are American and would certainly work for a build that could best be described as a European land speed car inspired build with American components.

Hello Terry, I believe my valve guides are cast as part of the cylinder jugs.... they quite high in the ports and with all of the carbon and crud (and now PB Blaster) it is difficult to get a good look at them. None of my valves appear to be bent but a couple are in a slight bind because the engine has been turned over several degrees from when it was put up after WW2. I don't know if I have loosening the lash caps will give me enough to room to wiggle out the lifters and their retainers. I fear my only course of action my be to loosen the lash caps and tap on the faces of the valves with a large wooden dowel. When I bought my new project my father jokingly told me "You're gonna need bigger tools", and it turns out he was right. I've long wanted a large lathe and mill but I just don't have the space in my garage. I have no idea how he and I worked on vehicles in a single car garage when I was a child, or how we worked on cars in a two-car garage when I was a teenager. Now we both have 3 car garages at our homes and still no space.... lol. To that end he is currently building a very large shop.... and I've already staked out a corner for some heavy duty machine tools. With regards to your starter, have you looked into adapting a starter from another large T-head (at least until you find the correct one)? I can provide pics and dimensions of the starter on my Seagrave if it would help.

At this point I'm not sure.... they have some fine pitting on the faces from years of sitting.... not sure what the seats look like. If they are two piece valves I plan to replace them for sure. I'm not sure how to break them free without doing damage.... I don't expect to get the engine running with just a tear-down and cleaning but I want try to keep costs in check. I'm already made peace with the fact I will likely pay dearly to have the oil pan repaired.... I don't have much choice. Screw it up and its unlikely I'd find a spare not attached to another engine. And there are at least 3 different F6 oil pans... maybe more. The engine also has cast iron pistons.... So a new set is likely in the future.... time will tell. I don't know of any machine shops in Houston I would trust with parts for my engine.... but I'm also not thrilled with the idea of sending the crank or jugs out of state for machine work.

Yeah my valves are stuck fast.... not sure about the best way to un-stick them. I've just been soaking them for now. All but one of my caps are free. In the videos, yes that is the indicator. It is in a completely different location on the older engines. In fact, my oil pan and timing cover and distributor are very different as well. The very early engines even used bronze crankcases. The indicator on the later engines in on the left side of the crankcase behind the bracket for the generator.

Yes... but there are numerous detail differences over the years the engine was built. And there seems to be very little remaining technical info on the engines.

I just joined the Facebook page, I'll be coming here just as frequently as I did before. Never hurts to have multiple sources for info/networking. Of course I really need to join the AACA as well... it would be nice to meet some local people with similar interests. Sometimes I feel all alone with my ancient stuff in Houston

Hello Terry, My Seagrave F6 has a similar provision for checking the oil level in the crankcase... I've attached a picture. The indicator rod is missing (or broken off) but you can see the small hole where it is supposed to go. I hope the rest is in the bottom of the oil pan. I've got some steel to build a huge engine stand, which will be my first big project after the holiday season. I want to remove the oil pan (temporarily) to inspect the bottom end of the engine and to survey how bad the damage is to my oil pan . The gauge I'm currently on the hunt for is for the dash... these engines have pressurized feed to the mains only, everything else is splash lubed via troughs that are filled by the oil pump. The drip "gauge" on the dash will show oil when there is sufficient oil in the crankcase to be pumped into the troughs, and the pump is working. Low-tech but effective. The indicator rod on the crankcase isn't ideally placed for checking the level when the engine is running if you have open exhaust stubs belching fire

BTT

Hey guys, So I've been reading my book on the Blitzen Benz and came across a reference to water cooling on the inboard band brakes on the transaxle, I seem to remember another vintage car using this as well, does anybody have more info on this? I would assume this was done to keep the external band from overheating and expanding too much? I'd love to see some pics or schematics of the system if anybody has any. Thanks

Thanks to everyone that replied, Lots of great info here... it will probably be a while before I get to riveting. I need to sandblast my frame first, which likely will not happen until my father's new shop is completed some time next year. Might get funny looks trying to do it in my backyard here in town

Bringing some info from my other thread concerning my frame. Here is some info on my frame that I will likely be using, it is the one propped up against the wall. It is definitely a White as the logo is cast in all of the brake levers. If anybody can provide some more specific model info I would be grateful. The side rails are just over 3/16" of an inch thick and a hair over 5" high at the at the tallest point. Best guess on wheelbase ( no springs mounted ) is 126" and the frame is just under 16 feet long. The previous owner said White used nickel steel to build their frames.

mike6024, The trailing arms (not sure if that is the proper term) locate the driven axle to the frame and keep from moving front to back (as the springs have shackles on both ends). The are often adjustable but I'm not sure why. I've actually spoken to the gentleman who owned the ALF in the bottom pics you posted (he is local), he no longer has that project. I may need to give him a ring, he knows quite a few people in the area who are firetruck collectors.

Hey guys, I wanted to again thank everyone who has replied. I have added more photos and dimensions of my axles on my build thread so we can keep this thread for just wheels. Are there any other vendors for Rudge-Whitworth wheels and hubs other than the ones listed? Thanks

My driven axle, Like my front axle, I have no idea what vehicle this axle was removed from. I've added the best pic that I can get of the center cap.... maybe somebody recognizes it? The axle is a 2.5" tall, 2" wide solid beam, and it is 52" to the outside edge of each drive spocket. The trailing arms are mangled and look homemade, the backing plates are missing on the drums and the brake levers look pretty crude as well.

My spindles and front hubs, The previous owner said these are from my front axle, I included a tape measure to get some idea of scale. I need to figure out where to measure to get an idea of bearing sizes as I only have one remaining inner bearing. The steering arm is removable and it appears that it can be swapped side to side for LHD or RHD. I have the center link from the axle as well. I've also added a close up pic of the spindle that concerns me.... it is badly scored. Probably fine for something with a 25-30 mph top speed.... but I think it probably needs to be replaced in a car that will be able to hold highway speed. I can't add much about the hubs yet... I haven't looked them over too much as they are for wooden wheels.... but they are huge and heavy.

Ok, back to the axles. Edinmass and Gary Ash brought up some good points about my suspension in my wheel thread so I want to get that conversation back over in my build thread.... not only for my benefit but for anybody else in the future who stumbles upon this thread. Here are some pics of my front axle (yes it is upside down in the pic). The axle is 38" wide between the spring perches, measured from the small flat on the outside of each perch. It is 50" between centers on the bottom of the kingpins. It is a 3" tall I-beam, I haven't tried to measure it but I does have a fair bit of positive camber that you see on most of these old axles. I don't see any markings on it. But if anybody has a clue what it came from it would be great help.

Mike6024, is that you ALF? If so, could I trouble you for some clear photos of the trailing arms, how they attach to the frame and what the backing plates look like on your rig? I'm going to have to engineer and build a set of trailing arms for my car and for the life of me I cannot find a good clear pic of the rear suspension of the one of the big chain driven speed record cars...

Yes, but in the case of the ALF tractors it is a bit misleading. The center section of the transaxle is just like the one from a regular fire truck... it just has much shorter axle tubes.

I do have the hubs as well. I will post better pics of the spindles and hubs this weekend on my build thread. The hubs still have the bearings but one of the spindles is badly scored. I will find myself a copy of the book you suggested

Hello Terry, I've read your thread on Practical Machinist numerous times. Gives me hope that I can rehab my engine as well. That crankcase on your engine is one amazing chunk of bronze!

Actually its bronze.... still heavy though The previous owner of my project does Brass Era restorations. This was his personal project that he decided to sell as he felt he wouldn't have to time to get to it. He gave me a tour of his shop.... on the condition I not take photos or discuss details, which I will respect and remain mum on... but I was stunned. He had gathered parts for this project for 25+ years, trying to match components that would work together with the big T-head in a much smaller, more proportionate package than shortening a ladder truck. He really a great job... when the frame rails are set far enough apart to match the spring perches on the front axle.... everything lines up pretty much perfectly. If I had the transaxle from the Fiat S76 with its forward mounted jackshafts.... everything would fit like a glove. I just posted a pic of my driven axle in my build thread the other day... I took a huge number of photos last weekend and I'm posting them a bit a time as I go through everything. Still need to post a close up pic of the front axle.

I'm looking for a sight glass that looks like a gauge but has oil flowing through it when the engine is running and the oil is pumping. I've attached a pic of an example in a Mercer, it is to the right of the mag switch.

Heck I'm not even sure of the redline on the engine. The gentleman on the HAMB that built the Seagrave Speedster said 1700 rpm, then 1500 rpm, then 1000 rpm... my Seagrave operator's manual gives no specs. The trucks had no tachometers, so all I can guess is they revved them until they scattered or that piloting the lumbering monsters at speed became terrifying before the engines reached their limits. Multiple carbs just add to the look. I don't have much solid info to go on. I've held the carb for a Fiat A.12 bis aero engine in my hands (the engine in Jay Leno's car) and it is massive for an engine that is only 20% larger. The Fiat Mephistopheles had 4 Solex carbs on the same engine.

Thank you for the replies guys. I've saved the link to the vendor with rivets. As far as setting them hot vs. cold... I'll muddy the waters a bit more. I've always read that the purpose of setting rivets hot was to draw the two pieces tighter as the rivet cools (and shrinks). I have no idea how they were done originally, but I have a repair manual from the early 20's that touches on frame repair including replacing rivets. It pretty much says to smash 'em in as best you can with heavy hammers