Wedgewood64

After near 20 years of a bouncing speedometer needle, the odometer started cutting out, intermittently. When the odo was out, the bouncing would be super wild; when the odo worked, the bouncing would just be... normal. So, after reading all (or a number of) the threads, and w/o too many illusions, I ordered a new cable (pretty cheap). Replaced it. At first, everything seemed good: steady needle + odo. Then the odo went out again, and crazy needle was back. Then the odo started working... you get the picture. The current state is no odo, and it hasn't changed in a while. Crazy needle, plus a kind of regular clicking. Is it time to pull the speedo and... well, do what? I've seen that on some vintage speedos, one can lube them. But this one? It also appears that pulling the speedo is a pain, partially or wholly because of the odo reset button. Any advice appreciated! nick

Just a report back, FYI. The linkage kit Ed suggested didn't seem to be right: contained metal bushings that were a little loose on the linkages and that (for that mounting at least) won't fit into the hole in the frame. Instead, I got these bushings: http://www.summitracing.com/parts/ATP-FO405 You need to drill them out to 3/8" (basically the I.D., but there's some strange lip in there as well), as well as prune their width with an Xacto, since the stock ones are much thinner and you can't get the hairpins through otherwise. But the fit is perfect, linkage nice and tight. 4 of them does it. For the vacuum modulator, since CARS was showing in their picture the exact replica of the original, I ordered that rather than going for the other replacement that everyone has for the TH400. Naturally, CARS sent me what everyone else had, at twice the price. Anyway, that's in there now, with no obvious effect (must have been a small leak). I still don't quite get why the manual shows the vacuum valve as a separate part, whereas in both the old VM and the new, it appears to be part of the assembly. Whatever. So, I recalibrated the shifter by making sure that when it was in lo, the manual shift selector down at the tranny was in low. And the result is: I can shift to lo at will, including at low speeds. Should have done that 15 years ago. And: now that I flattened the transmission pan bolt hols (as above), replaced the rubber gasket with a reinforced cork one (rockauto), replaced the manual shaft seal, and the seals on the speedo gear housing, It's pretty dry under there. a little drip from what's probably the front seal, I can (and will) live with that. Success! Thanks for the help ROAers! nick

OK, good to know, thanks Tom. I'm going to have to replace the VM, then, because fluid is definitely coming out the port. But how do I get the valve out of the VM? Magnet didn't work; I tried jiggling with a screwdriver a bit. Assuming the vale does not come as part of the new modulator.

Nice, thanks Ed. On a related transmission issue, maybe you could help. I removed the vacuum modulator to change the o-ring. The manual clearly shows the modulator valve sticking out from the tranny. I didn't see it, however, when I removed the VM. Is it simply stuck inside the modulator body? I see something in there moving... but it doesn't want to come out. Also, am I right to think that when handling the VM fluid shouldn't come out of the vacuum port? (Seemed to me that some may have dripped out--the way I understand it, that would mean a bad diaphragm. Otherwise, though, the trans had been working fine part my problem getting in Lo (and the leaks).) nick

yesterday's hypothesis confirmed: I created my own problem. Well, at least I've been able to verify that the linkage is now adjusted correctly for the correct range. Also, thanks Ed for your tip on some thread about flattening out the pan edge around the bolt holes--mine had definitely been overtorqued at some point. Now everything's snug at 12 ft lbs. Soon I'll do those bushings to make the linkage nice and tight. Currently, a couple of them are bad--esp the one that goes into the frame.

heh, yeah. But then I still would have had to have had the brains to go through all the positions by hand to check them out. Looking at pictures of the lever, I can't possibly see how I could get the reassembly "off" by some amount. That's out , I think. However, looking at the trusty manual, on p 5-128 it says: "Note: Be sure the manual valve is properly indexed with the pin on the manual detent lever." I have a feeling that the pin on the lever is not supposed to simply "push" the valve (as it does in my first photo of the OP), but that the valve has a kind of groove and the pin must be in the groove so that it'll have a push-pull function. (The way it's set up in the photo, moving the trans linkage can only push the manual valve in.) It looks that way in the manual pix--tho the things are microscopic. That would explain why the valve's currently bottoming out--if the pin were lined up right, the valve would never go that far. Ah ha! Well, I'm going to reinstall the lever tomorrow and see where I'm at. Knew I shouldn't have bothered with that shaft seal!

OK, Ed, interesting: well, there's certainly some play in the linkage, and I may just want to replace those bushings. But I just found out that when I remove the linkage arm going to the manual shaft on the trans, I can't manually slide the detent lever past the point in the photo. The problem? the manual valve (as the manual calls it) is hitting against the crenelated nut that seems to hold down the solenoid. The end of the manual valve is the bright cylinder in the below photo. I don't get it. Unless somehow when I took out the manual shaft to replace the seal, I somehow reinstalled the lever in the wrong position. In that case, one might surmise that the manual shaft is currently at its proper maximum position (meaning Lo), and that what's wrong is that the lever is off a bit. However, it was my impression that the lever only goes on one way--one can't get it "off a tooth" like a timing chain or sth. I don't know, maybe not. Anyone have a sense of where the manual valve sits when in Lo? Hmm... I should have observed this better BEFORE changing the shaft seal. A common occurrence with me, it seems.

Hello all, My 64 never has gone into Lo very well: the car needs to be at a full stop, and even then, it can be iffy. (I've read here that one should be able to downshift at anything under 40 mph?) Recently there was a period of not going into lo at all--annoying for me, since I live on the top of a very steep hill and it helps w/the braking. OK, so, to take a look at things, and maybe fix some leaking fluid along the way (new cork pan gasket, flattened bolt hole in the pan, new manual shift seal), I got the pan off and have been messing around. What I found was that with the shift lever in Lo, I'm only getting half-way to the Lo setting on the detent lever: So, seeing only one place to make an adjustment, I went over to where the shift rod bolts to the linkage, loosened the adjuster nut, and... I can't get any more adjustment out of the thing. Detent lever still in same place. Any ideas much appreciated! I want to start burning sub $3 gas ASAP... nick

Marty, thanks for this. everyone's going to think I'm not worth dealing with, but it would seem that the noise is now... less bad and intermittent. When I first got the axles back in, I still heard the noise, but I didn't drive it much, too busy. Back from my trip, yesterday, I drove my boy and myself down to the beach, maybe 60 miles to and fro, and upon returning: no noise, or at least, undetectable with the passenger window rolled down and driving along side fences to reflect it back. This morning, I checked cold: creak is there, but I have to say it's far less obtrusive than it was. When I first started with all this, it was quite loud: I thought everyone must be looking at me as I drove by in my "jalopy." This a.m., it was there, but was very quickly drowned out by road noise. And this p.m.: less obtrusive still. So, well, to come back to Marty's point: the only thing I can say brake-wise is that, when I did the axles, I did try to lube a few contact points (i.e., where the adjuster wheel contacts the shoes), but when I did the install I did most of those points anyway; plus, I doubt that makes any difference anyway (?). The other thing is that the variable volume thing has got me thinking: if the noise had been softer before the brake work, it's quite possible that in fact I did have noise before, it just wasn't that bad and I didn't notice. The upshot is: seems like I've wasted some time (mine, yours) and some coin. Right now I'm just going to pop the hubcaps back on, drive the baby (whoo-hoo: gas prices falling!), and see what happens noise-wise. Maybe it is going south with the geese after all... If not, I shall return... Thanks all!

David, Ed, Tom, thanks very much for all this. I'm leaving town on business for a couple of weeks and will need to give this a rest for now. The only thing I've swapped on the wheels would be the two rear ones. (noise is definitely right rear, and stays that way) No effect. Though both rear wheels are the ones that used to be on the front; I moved them back when I did the brake work. that brake work was replacing cylinders and springs only--pads plenty good. As such did not have drums turned. Lug-wise, all is normal (replaced one bad stud when axles were off). I'm pretty sure all is seated correctly, esp since I've had the dang wheels / drums off and on so much, it's hard to believe I'd keep putting the thing back bad. When I return, I'll look at the brake hardware closely; check the brake line wrap; and try to see if I can get this noise to happen on stands. It doesn't happen just spinning the wheels freely; but maybe with the engine in gear and running. Thanks again! (And there's something about this forum that affects my spelling: break for brake??)

Thanks seafoam for your time and your list. I think 1-3 are basically ruled out (plus, I got to say, it's a distinct creak, almost like a spring sound, more than a scrape). 4: well, possibly, but I don't really think so. 5: that would kind of be what I fear; 6) well, nothing has occurred recently to bend the axle, I don't know; 7: no, I removed them; 8: parking break seems perfectly operative. So, I don't know. I'm going to give it a rest for a while, maybe the noise will go south with the geese . Thanks again.

OK, well, that took a while. My experience changing the bearings is on this thread: http://forums.aaca.org/f177/rear-wheel-bearing-replacement-64-basic-378609.html (Note that I ran into a problem that I'm surprised I don't see anyone else alluding to.) HOWEVER: big disappointment, the noise remains the same. I may need to start a new thread to ask for new ideas if this one seems dead. But I'm all ears. Thanks, nick

I've done the replacement and I thought I'd post for anyone as inexperienced as I was. I did run into a problem that others might find too, so this might be of help generally... 1) one axle came out with the drum technique; the other was stuck. Not having a thick chain, I ended up getting a loaner slide hammer from the chain parts store, which I also needed (along with pullers) to get the oil seal out. Easy enough. 2) One seal was obviously bad, I could feel the cracks with my finger. Replaced it with National part 51098. (The other had been redone, I left it.) The manual spoke of using sealant around the outer edge of the seal, but no one seemed to know what was needed, so I just ignored that. Installing the seal: I didn't have a socket big enough; my local mechanic lent me his installer driver. 3) the problem arose with the bearings. I went with the National bearings everyone lists for the car. However, I did not carefully measure everything before having the old ones cut off and the new ones put on. The thing is that the National bearings come with retainer rings (collars) that are approximately 5/8 inch thick--much thicker than the OE rings. The result was that when I went to reinstall the axles, I found that the they bottomed out on the oil seals: I couldn't tighten the nuts on the retaining plate. Ooops. 4) The original retaining rings are modest next to the huge National ones. They have a step profile you can see in the manual and in this photo: at the thickest point, it measures .377 inches. I got NOS's from Buick Farm for $6 each, thinking that the shop could just cut the thick new collars off and pop these on. They said they couldn't, that they needed to heat the rings as well as cutting, and that would ruin the bearing. Don't know if this is right but I wasn't going to run from shop to shop. I sprung for new Nationals and had the NOS rings put on. 5) If I had it to do over, I might just look on rockauto at lesser priced bearings that appear to come with skinnier retaining rings. They're good about putting dimensions on their parts, as people have pointed out. 6) Anyway, after I got the second set of bearings on there, I lubed things up as directed in the manual and everything went on fine. The manual also calls for a gasket between the backing plate and the retainer plate. They were gone on mine, and I gather that most people leave these off. (They are apparently there not to keep fluid from leaking out, but from keeping break dust out of the bearing area.) CARS has them for $4.50, but I didn't want to wait for that; I got some for a Mustang and had to cut new bolt holes, but basically it worked. So, after spending twice what I should have, it's done. I'm unsure as to why no one else has reported this problem with the 5/8 inch collars. There's even another thread here with a picture of them, and a member said they'd work, and there was no sign they didn't for that guy. But not for me, I wasn't imagining things: I could see on the oil seal how the thick collar was rubbing up against it. Anyway, beware, and measure measure measure. Oh: btw, new bearings didn't fix the noise problem I had in the 1st place... n

Thanks Tom and Dan. I guess I'll go for the brake drum method first and cross my fingers. I read about the chain method in another thread. Might try that second. I don't want to overthink this, but as for sourcing the parts, I was going to use a plain old national chain. I'' try to be careful with the old seals, but will definitely have replacements ready depending on how it goes. I see some NOS axle seals on ebay. Anyone feel they're worth the cost and aggravation of getting? I'm kind of thinking no.... n

OK, so after getting from the list a diagnosis of bad rear bearings, I'd like to try venturing into this unknown area of my 64. I have a chassis manual. I want to pull the axle and have a local shop do the bearings themselves. So, 2 questions: a) should I count on renewing the oil seal no matter what? if so, this seems to require special puller/installer. Would these be the kind of things I can rent from OReilly's? or would they be included in some sort of basic kit I could invest in? removal of axle requires, apparently, a slide hammer/puller. Same basic question as above, rent/buy. (I just have no idea of how basic an item such as "puller J-6176" or "J-6199" is... Should every garage have one?! Does a standard puller set have all I need for this?). Also, there's a "Caution" in the manual: while pulling axle, "support shaft carefully in center of seal to avoid cutting seal lip". I assume this means that as I pull it out I hold it centered with my hand, esp as the pinion end passes through. Is this a really delicate operation, or pretty intuitive? Thanks again, nick

Bernie: thanks, ok, I think i can give this a go, tho maybe not this w-e... will report back to confirm. thanks! nick

Sorry seafoam, i was using the wrong terminology. Under load, I just meant it doesn't do it if you just spin the wheel. It does it coasting, in reverse, while braking, w/o braking. Only goes away when making a right-hand turn. does it at 30mph--and until road noise at higher speeds drowns it out. Looks like the bearing, then. Will report back to confirm. thanks for the tips, n

Bernie: Thanks for this, the diff oil's a good idea--and this is indeed one of those driving-by-a-wall noises that bounces back at you. Maybe I'll try to tackle that sooner than later. As for bearing noise: OK, when I block the right wheel (the one that is making the creak) and go listen to the other, I hear what I'd say is a minor little rattle--but there's a lot of kind of whooshing, I'm not sure what to listen for. When I block the left wheel and go listen to the right wheel, I'd say there's less rattle than that. So I'm not sure. But once lug nuts are out, brakes are out, what's left? I even switched the two rear wheels, just to make sure it wasn't in the wheel assembly... Because I can't make it make the noise unless I'm moving, I don't see how even with a stethoscope I'm going to pinpoint the noise (say, between U-joint and bearings)... Thanks again, nick

Heh, that's a funny image. Checked the backing plate bolts--tight. thanks anyway!

After reading Bernie's instructions on bearing noise in another thread, I'm not sure I know what to listen for. I thought I was listening to the wheel that I was stopping (see my other post: it rumbles); but maybe I'm supposed to leave that wheel blocked and go around to the other side and listen to the spinning wheel...

I'll put the stethescope on my xmas list. I'll try the breaker bar tomorrow to try to pinpoint the noise that it makes when doing the above. But of course neither would work very well for the original creak, since it only makes it when the car's under load moving. I can see me trying to run along side the car w/ a pipe as my wife's driving... I see bruises...

OK, thanks for all the suggestions. I had already tightened the lug nuts and removed the wheel covers, so that's out. Today I backed off the adjuster, no change. In addition, the sound wasn't affected by breaking in the first place. And as I noted above, I didn't replace the pads, just the cylinders and springs. Still, I did back it off. Then I followed Bernie's instructions. When I stop either rear wheel from spinning, I get what I'd call a grinding sound coming from (apparently: no stethescope yet!) the hub area of the stopped wheel. What's it supposed to sound like? (nothing, maybe?). As I noted, same approximate sound from each wheel. Only other things I can think of to mention 1) the sound goes away when cornering right (otherwise does it forward and reverse); 2) I did in fact do very minor things to the driveshaft (I lubed whatever I could access; and tightened loose bolts on the transmission mount). So technically I didn't touch only the brakes. Thanks again, nick

David, Was thinking of bearings, though the sound is so creaky (er-err er-err...)... I would have expected some other sound. I'll back off the star wheel tomorrow just to make sure that's not the issue (pads aren't new, actually, they were still great so I put them back in). thanks for your ideas, nick

Checked: covers off and the nuts are tight. No change. thanks, nick

I walked along side the car with my wife driving, and it sure sounded sounded like it was coming from the wheels--esp the right one. (I heard a lesser creak on the left side, but I didn't hear it today...) If it's the center bearing, I could diagnose just by jacking up the rear and putting it in gear, I guess? FYI, the stands in the rear were under the differential, not the frame, so it didn't hang. Thanks! nick