gpdc

fwiw dept......the top of the vacuum cannister, when removed & flipped over, shows a very small vent hole.....somewhere......I've forgotten exactly where, thinking its in a casted boss...... That hole in my friends car was plugged right shut with the (hardened) sealant that had been previously used on the gasket. If I'm remembering correctly, that little vent hole aligns with another hole in the top of the body of the can requiring it (the top) to be in the correct radial position when re-assembled. '25 Master 6 that now starts, runs & goes down the road like a champ......check my previous posts....all 6 pages......if you're interested, in reviewing what we did to get it to where it is now......don't give up.....ya gotta be "smarter the the car" gpdc

Thank you Leif! we're thinking that a replacement is gonna cure our over charge condition and stop blowing fuses....we'll see! thanks again for that info. gpdc

Hi All.......... Does anybody know if the internal S/G coil from a Delco 249 S/G (from a '23 6 cyl) is the same as the coil in the # 268 S/ G for our Master 6 ?.......... thank you! gpdc

seems it !!!!......now, onto other stuff....so,....I'm asking you, or any other reader if the S/G coil from a Delco 249 S/G (from a '23 6 cyl) is the same as the coil in the # 268 S/ G for our Master 6 ?..........

Hello all......'lil update on the car : put it up for the winter around Turkey day last November....ya, 'bout 6 months ago...... prior to that & more recently, thrash sessions installed a new , 90 yo old flywheel (with the teeth cut into the solid as the original), new ignition components included properly crimped 8mm wires & their proper spacer sleeves in the cap, 90 degree terminals on the plugs,etc, etc new cap & rotor, points & (a biggie, me thinks), the capacitor ( ref here: L Bibarlows' problem with burned points....we had it) & a (correct) replacement distributor (more thanks Jim B ).......and various other bits, pieces & parts.......so.......we're now successfully driving around the yard with it & dealing with the over amp draw seen when "motoring" the s/g......which (it seems) has a possible field coil short to ground problem. The motor sounds so sweet at idle, it'll make your heart melt.........the whole system will get a super tuning once we get this amperage draw problem figured out & solved............ & I'm not sure if I voiced it, the problem with the hand crank was system "sticktion".......I could turn it with the pan & the rear main cap off...... in installing the new flywheel....I had to.............& I could turn it from underneath the car using (gently) a bar between the clutch towes......AMAZED, I was !! I believe now it's an oil problem that the starter motor easily overcomes....truth be told, we don't really need to hand crank it any more............(maybe!) The orange glowy exhaust problem and subsequent (associated?) water overheating SEEMS to be history.....contributing factors could include accurate ignition timing, proper Marvel carb settings & carb heating component adjustments comlimentary to todays available fuel. again, thanks to all who chimed in........ GPDC

ya Rod, your pictures, directions & the schematics in the shop manual for a bench test for the "motoring" function were what I was going on..... couldn't get it to run....then, desperation move.....stuck that black wire back in & it motored...... The car started, ran & charged when he first got it & it had that wire installed....so....methinks a call to Jason is in order next week......

Well....we're getting closer & closer now........ the tight/hard turning (manual) crank problem may have had something to do with a hard turning distributor shaft....probably a pot metal dist. housing problem..... a recent stumbling block is shown in the attached pic.....does anybody want to take a guess as to what function the black wire with the small white paint spot on it has?.......both ends have ring type sta-kon crimp ends (avail 1925?....kinda doubt it).....the larger ring terminal is fixed to the case (a ground) by the hex bolt shown.....the small ring terminal end goes onto the threaded stud that sits above the lifting starter brush & is kinda buried out of sight.......the mystery is in the fact that w/o that wire, the s/g arm won't "motor" at low speed like it needs to....... we put that wire back in to get the "motoring" & the starting system never engaged so smoothly, effortlessly or smoothly.....we're there on that... stay tuned!

wow......never gave tight end play a thought..... the pan is still off so I'll check it tomarrow....... fwiw dept: I bought a used '70 Mach 1 'Stang in '72........pretty 'lil thing with a Cleveland, 410 locker, Hurst ontop of the BW T10 The car had been parked for months by the original owner when I bought it...... much later I heard the thinking was it had bent crank......evidenced & experienced by me everytime it wouldn't turn over fast enough to start when warm..... I learned to carry cables, not to start it warm & always park it pointed downhill....... I lived with the inconvience...... Then one day I installed Hooker headers, street cam, bigger Holley on an Edelbrock intake & a hot ignition..... and drove it to Florida the next day...... The car NEVER had starting problems after that......... Can anybody guess why?...... SPOILER ALERT: The stock CI exhaust manifolds were transfering too much heat to the starter motor......the headers were routed to minimize that and also too..... there may or may not have been a missing heat shield involved from day one....

Thanks for that Larry, All of that is good info & ideas..... Your backward (ly) installed crank pulley is the kind of thing we thought we'd find if & when we took the crank snout out & apart on this engine.......won't happen now....yippee!! I'd started thinking about one way clutch bearings as crazy as that would be in there...... I've seen tight rings nearly instantly gall the cyl walls & start the engine smoking real bad...this engine blows no blue.... I've also seen tight front & rear rope type seals that weren't trimmed properly tighten a new engine...for a while..... That GM break-in oil seems like a good idea.....with unknown time on the engine (but still thinking it has very little) it might not be a bad thing to dump a quart in there.....not a bad idea at all, methinks.....

Hello All......one mystery solved: The new/rebuilt engine in this car has a HUGE amount of "stiction" break-away force....enough so that my 250# on the end of a 1/2" breaker bar would NOT MOVE the crank using the front manual crank snout....not one tiny bit. Anybody following this thread has read of my pleas for help regarding this. Last nite, in mounting the new flywheel (thank you again to Jim B !), we HAD to turn the flywheel to get its' (6) bolts in from the backside....as we had to do to remove them (just like the book says....LOL) I used a bar between the (3) clutch-pak towers and rotated the crank in the direction of its' normal rotation & noticed something I hadn't when removing those bolts last week......after the initial rotational break-away using the bar, and if I did what I could do using my third & fourth hands to loose the bar & get hands on the clutch towers, I could keep the engine rotating! BY HAND!!! This caused me to return to the front crank snout, insert our new to us crank handle (again, thank you Jim B.) & put more force on it than I ever had, broken pieces be damned...and bam.....once broken free, I could turn that motor over fairly easily using the hand crank........ GREAT sighs of relief here as we'd committed to pulling the radiator/front engine mount & crank snout to get this problem FIXED. All that being said......the rear main cap has yet to go back on, so we'll see what that brings us......neither that bearing nor its' journal look heated or stressed in any way. Now......we're looking for thoughts on the main culprit here, which, right now anyway, I believe to be oil related as I've seen this problem before involving the ways of manually operated machine tools.........once you get the table moving, you float along like it's on a bed of marbles......another thought is we simply need to add in some more break-in time to the front & rear seals & babbit bearings. We think this motor had very little run time before the vehicle purchase......and maybe 50 mikes since. Is there something unique about (poured?) babbit material that might require a light(er) or special purpose 1oil at break-in time?......sounds crazy, just asking. So....thats the deal thus far....... We're getting there.

Jim B in southern Vermont, My friend the car owner is interested in your flywheel..... can you confirm that your flywheel has an Outside Diameter of just about 15 7/16" and has 122 teeth ? The only difference would seem to be in the casting #'s and would appear to be -1 and his is -2 at the end. and if your diameter & tooth count are the same, he's willing to drive to you for purchase if you'd give us a price and your location or similar contact info as he's close enough to you for that....... just north of Syracuse, NY thank you, George P.

FYI All: pic of bad flywheel.....I think there's 26 teeth that are shot....

Jim, Your flywheel sure looks better than ours!! and thank you for the pictures !.... I'm going to the car in less than an hour to finish pulling it out of the car. We'll get back to you shortly after that..... where are you ?

Rod, as always, thank you for the input....you've been a great help to us on this project....as has everybody else who's posted here with info for us.....thank you all...... We have the rear of the engine supported on both sides very well. That allowed removing the lower bell housing/flywheel guard & frame to engine motor mounts. I'm remined of a jig saw puzzle by all this........just to pull the flywheel. I'd been so easy if the designers' had opened the flywheel clearance diameter(s) just 3/8 of an inch. The flywheel bolts will not push back far enough to let it (the flywheel) drop right straight down as their heads contact the rear main bearing cap on the bottom and the back of the engine block on the top, and they need to be removed to allow the flywheel to drop down. Today we'll decide whether we need to drop the oil pad or not....can't really tell if that rear main bearing cap extends under the pan or not. FLASH: Buick refers to the oil pan as the "Lower Crankcase".........and clearly tells you to remove it.....no mention of the rear main bearing cap. so methinks that will be todays' project............ Pics will follow...........

update on flywheel problem: who'd ever thought a simple flywheel pull could ever be so involved..................... was it the Chevy Vega that needed its' engine lifted to get at the rear plug(s) ? HA HA.......this '25 has got that beat all to hell....... long story short....we're going to need this flywheel repaired or replaced.... Anybody have any good ideas about how we should go about doing that? (there is no ring gear.....the teeth are cut into the solid of the flywheel)....... can we just buy a ring gear with the correct # of teeth (or close), turn the flywheel diameter as required on a lathe & shrink the new piece on? also too.......the flywheel is too large in diameter to come right straight out of the :bellhousing, even after dropping the lower guard......looks like both the (drained) oil pan and the rear main bearing cap need to come off......the main bearing cap traps the flywheel bolts so that they won't push back far enough to allow the flywheel to drop right straight down........

hey guys...thanks for the input........we've got some time constraint/family stuff going (the owner is MIA on his 55 th anniversary) right now otherwise we'da probably have it (the flywheel) out by now.....been looking at the rear end relocation thing & on the face of it, it really don't look too bad........... I got it from Bob (I guess) @ Automobilia that the standard service manual fix for that flywheel in that car bad teeth is to pop it off (w/heat) & flip it........I can tell you for sure the ring gear is wide enough to support that....we just gotta get it out & see for ourselves......... Bob....if you're reading this, the timing & throttle gearset segments came in today & look beautiful.....I can't WAIT to get them in there & see what's what with the increased distributor travel......and, once again, thanks for the related info. George P

Fred, Thank you for your thoughts........I THINK we're now past the overheating condition.....here's why: the "dashpot" air/valve was stopping nearly a 1/4" short of fully closing......its' pot metal mounting block inside the intake bore above the throttle plate was swollen & distorted preventing the proper closing position.......we CAREFULLY machined that pot metal block all back square & perpendicular, reworked the valves' integral closing stopper & now the air valve just touches the full bore as the stop meets the pot metal block......in part, we think that eliminated the orange glowy exhaust manifold we'd see all too soon after starting the engine......WHEN we could get it started, that is....... A bunch of new ignition parts from Bob's were installed & we're getting closer & closer to having a real car as Buick intended....... This sheared off flywheel teeth thing is, of course another bump in the road & we'll get past it.... Bob's Automobilia says all we need do is to pop the ring gear off the flywheel , flip it around & re-install it & that sounded real good so that's where we're at now. Been quite an adventure so far........ gpdc

hey guys.....new info update.....we just got to the problem with the starter/gear assembly not engaging the flywheel correctly (or at all, actually) tonite....and...great sadness......26 teeth had been destroyed on the ring gear.....probably from bumping the initial (starting) timing ever upward............ so....now the fix sets in......anybody know for sure the total # of flywheel teeth...it's either 118 or 120 I think......anybody know for positive we need only replace the ring gear?.........the shaft that the actual (sliding) starter gears ride on won't budge after removing that large cotter pin....why?.......how best to remove tranny to get at the flywheel? All thoughts & ideas are welcome...!!

Rod.....we thank for the time & the staged pictures of the components we're working with....... "Check that the small gear from the starter motor isn't spinning on its shaft"..........I can say that I saw the small s/g gear (pinion gear) turning at the high speed you might expect with no drive going to the flywheel and the starter pedal fully engaged so as to bring the starter brush into contact with its' armature...... again...thank you......we'll pull the whole assembly this week & report back..... what do you think of my advanced timing theory as to the cause of this ?

'nother oops.......here's the pic:

THE PICTURE FOLLOWS THIS POST......my bad..... Here's a pic of some of the things that we've done to this car.....mostly to stop the orange glowy exhaust mainfold problem......all of the exhaust manifold shown here was glowing orange within a couple of minutes of start up.....now, about 700 F is max that we've seen so far with out leaving the driveway. Moving from left to right: The vertical silver shiny thing is a piece of 1/8" dia. tig rod bent & installed to keep the exhaust butterfly in the manifold/exhaust pipe junction open. The shiny plate plate behind the updraft intake casting is a piece of stainless that is serving as an exhaust blocking plate. The airvalve/dashpot mounting block.....a pot metal piece.....was distorted/warped & swollen.....it was machined square & carefully so that now the air valve blade just rests against the throttle bore in the static position.....previous to this work, it was upwards of 1/4" open.....anybody familiar with this problem will recognize what I'm talking about.....careful removal & being machine square fixes it. In another post here in prewar, we found mention of (2) different gas metering jet lengths that were both used in this carb & model year (thank you Marvel !)....this is the long small dia. needle with a taper on the end that is linked to and moves with the throttle and allows fuel enrichment somewhat porportional to throttle position.......using the existing link we had (from the throttle linkage) and the metering jet that was in the car, at "0" throttle opening this jet was positioned up & off its' internal seat somewhere around 3/16" or so......which we think was contributing the fuel flooding condition......NOT the internal fuel bowl float which seems good especially after we resealed it.....so.....I made the 'lil brass connector barrel that you see with the (2) cotter pins sticking out & now, at idle, that metering rod is down just touching the internal jet & starts to move up with the throttles' movement. The carb float chamber cover looks too thick because it's a clear polycarbonate piece we made & installed for diagnostic purposes. We've yet to re assemble the complete vacuum tank assembly & simply manually fill the firewall tank for our setup & testing requirements.......adding a clear filter (for visual fuel flow) below the tanks' shut off valve was also a good thing........ The float bowl fuel level is set to 1/16" below the top of the low speed jet tube which is internal to the carb........ On the opposite side of the engine bay.....the original coil, points & condenser were all replaced with parts from Bob's....and now the plugs show spark very consistantly.......Bob was very helpful with that. The timing remains a sticking point......partly because the spark advance/retard linkage only allows about half of the total available due to slop & wear in the many linkage connectors & the teeth in the gear segment underneath the steering column that drives it all are well worn.... I'm thinking now that maybe the initial service manual setting of 7 degrees ATDC is correct and may be required for starting gear longevity & then, once running, you manually advance it as required.......we've a ways to go on that point, fixing the broken gearset is #1 toward that......... all comments/suggestions/critiques/other are welcome! OOPS......just added the picture after this....next page, I think

Rod.....that gearset is not driving the flywheel......full foot pedal starter engagement results only in the s/g's pinion gear freely spinning at high speed while NOT turning the motor over.......we're thinking we've a damaged one-way clutch/bearing that's not engaging........and that MAY have come about from an advanced timing condition......not sure yet Is the above picture of your gearset for a right hand drive car? jbbuick22: yup.....that's our conclusion......the '25's starter pedal crosshaft brackets are a little different, essentially it looks like we're going to be doing just what you suggest.......we'll see.....I'll report in........ I think the advanced timing returned to the starting gear an opposite rotation force.....while it was cranking at engine starting speed.......and (maybe) destroyed the surface the one way clutch bearings engage for starting......

the first pic shows the loosened tower....bolts are out....vise grip on problem shaft with the intent of moving it toward the drivers side to get it out & clear the "tower"....

oops......win 10 newbie learning curve......I hate this shit.............

here's a pic of the Drivers side of the problem shaft..... the smallest circle shows the boss that I was hoping this problem shaft would provrude out of after I loosened a (pinch bolt?) that I was hoping would allow free left/right movement....it didn't the oblong circular marking shows the 3/8 extensions,,universal & 1/2 " socket we used to loosed it the largest oblong circle shows the clear filter we installed after the vacuum tank...... more to follow shortly