[I’m considering a 1938 Cadillac Series 65 4 door convertible - your thoughts on value and any historical problem areas with these cars]

Wonderful!

[AUCTION: 3 Hours Left - Tucker Convertible - $2,375,000.00 (Rowlett, Texas)]

8 hours ago, DrumBob said:

OK, if this car is forgery, how was it assembled and from what parts? Wouldn't the builder have to start with Tucker parts?

 

When I was a kid in high school, and just getting into this hobby, somewhat over fifty years ago, I subscribed to Hemmings Motor News magazine, which in those days was about the size of a "Reader's Digest" if you are old enough to remember those (from about thirty years ago?). In study hall, I would read it from cover to cover almost every month! I was also reading almost every book on antique automobiles and automotive history that I could get my hands onto. So, even then, I was somewhat familiar with the Tucker and its history.

One of the things that struck me then was how many Tucker parts were for sale! Several collectors had gotten ahold of a bunch of the leftover Tucker parts and were trying to make a few bucks selling them off to people with dreams of building one. Legend has it that the engine was used for some early helicopters? I won't claim to know about that, but I do know that a bunch of those engines were floating around the country, some still in their factory crates! I actually saw a couple of them myself at a couple of shows, "Tucker" name on the engines and all! Occasionally, at major swap meets, one could see doors and hoods, sometimes a grill or other distinctive pieces, being offered or just displayed. Clearly, that stuff was out there.

Slowly, that stuff seemed to quietly drift away. I always figured a few people thought they could collect enough pieces to assemble another car. When this car first showed up about a decade or so ago, I figured that it was likely assembled from some hidden collection of some real pieces along with deep pockets fabricating whatever else they needed.

 

I don't wish to disparage the man too much. Preston Tucker was a brilliant engineer, with an eye to the future. He was also a huckster, a bit of a conman, and often putting together shaky deals. I "believe" he was truly hoping to throw the automotive industry on its ear with his groundbreaking designs. But even with government grants and loans, use of aircraft manufacturing plants left empty by the end of the war, he couldn't quite pull that rabbit out of his hat. I suspect that he ordered a lot of pieces to construct not just the first fifty cars, but a good start on the next fifty. How many pieces are still out there? We'll probably never know.

 

While a few pieces might make a nice addition to display in a private collection? I do hope nobody else foolishly tries to build another one.

[1938 Austin flying 12 drop head coupe, not mine]

And he thinks it is 32 feet long! 

Sorry, couldn't resist.

 

(An abbreviation of a year, the apostrophe goes BEFORE the number!)

[AUCTION: 3 Hours Left - Tucker Convertible - $2,375,000.00 (Rowlett, Texas)]

You know, I love this hobby. The best, and maybe only thing I did good for me was get into this hobby and play with the historic cars I feel such a connection to.

Once in a while, not often, I get this notion that "maybe I have been in this too long?" First opening this thread two days ago was one such moment. First, for me. the Tucker is way too modern to really interest me. However, I do appreciate the history even into the modern eras. And the Tucker, no matter how bad they really were (and forty years ago I did know the owner of one, and on a couple occasions even saw it being driven!), was a significant footnote in automotive history. The man was interesting (some worthwhile reading?). The car was an overhyped flop, and a flop for good reasons.

Anyhow, two nights ago, I peruse the forum "Not Mine" list (a part of my nightly routine), and see the "Tucker-Auction" listing. I am curious, so I click in, and in less than a full second I see the first photo and utter the words aloud "Oh not that stupid thing again!"

 

I can appreciate some "fantasy creations", cars that "should have been". I even have considered building one a few times (a certain 1912 model T body style that I have most of the parts for comes to mind?). 

I think mm-man is correct, that had the "builder" been upfront and honest from the beginning, instead of lying about it, that the car would get some respect today. Even then, I doubt seriously that they would get even half what they are asking for it. Even people that can afford it want to be liked. And given the car's sordid past, nobody today is going to be liked for having it or showing up anywhere with it.

[Have you owned the same car more than once?]

Not sure I feel like sharing this one or not. Most of the collector cars I have sold were because I needed to for family reasons. There have been way too many of them over too many years, way too many I regret having sold. I scrimped and saved, bought sold and restored my way up again and again. One car, I did buy, restore, sell and later bought again.

The 1925 Studebaker coach, a longtime good friend had bought, and began a restoration of the solid original car which was not quite good enough to preserve as truly original. About halfway through the restoration, he found another car he really wanted to have. He and his wife talked it over and decided if he could quickly sell the Studebaker coach they could make the deal on the other car. As I happened to be close at hand, and knowing his reputation for doing things right, I quickly agreed to buy the Studebaker in its half-done state.

I then sold the 1929 Reo I had had since high school to pay for professional paint job just as he had been planning to do, and finished the body and fender repairs and preparation myself. He had already done the nickel plating and new whitewall tires, I discovered that one rear wheel was damaged, and had a professional wheelwright re-wood it. I finished some mechanical repairs and interior repairs. 

When done, I drove the car on a lot of local tours, including a few of a couple hundred miles. When my then girlfriend and I got married, we used the Studebaker as our getaway car from the reception.

About a year later, an unexpected hospitalization hit us with a significant bill. Doing what I knew was the right thing, I sold the Studebaker to a good friend in order to pay that and a few other unexpected expenses. And so it began.

I had bought the Studebaker in the early 1970s, sold it about 1979. Always regretted having sold it. But about fifteen years later, things were better, I had had a couple other nice antique automobiles which I was driving and enjoying, but heard my old Studebaker coach was coming up for sale soon. It had been owned and enjoyed by a couple different owners, and the price was reasonable. So, I managed to buy it back! 

Sadly, it didn't last long. Another unexpected medical issue hit us and again, the Studebaker coach was sold. Unfortunately, it wasn't the only one destined to go away for the good of the family. But it is the one that I did have to sell twice.

 

Shortly after I had bought it back.

 

 

[My chance at a lighted Packard Service dealership sign]

Can't really tell from the photo? It looks to me like someone may have done a really bad attempt at repainting it? If so, they probably should have left it as was. Such a look actually make me wonder if it was originally a Packard sign or not.

The glass of course could be replaced, and painted by someone with the skills to make it look right, for any marque someone may want. That size, the sign likely identified the way (inside or outside a building) to the lubrication bay at the service center. The style could be either late 1930s or up to early 1950s art deco. Too modern to get me excited, however advertising collectors tend to go nuts over that stuff!

Current state of the economy and collecting makes uncertainty an issue, however a couple years ago I would have said $500 was cheap IF (that big "IF" again) it can be determined to be an original Packard piece.

 

By the way, those tennis rackets are also interesting. I have a few of them from the 1920s and even a couple from maybe as early as 1900 (1890s's patent dates and a style that was out of favor by 1920). I used to take them to the "Gatsby Picnic" for our vintage picnic display.

[For Sale: 1927 Ford Model T Touring Car - $14,500 - LeClaire, IA - Not Mine]

23 hours ago, RonDup said:

Front wheel bearings are back in production and in stock at the parts vendors.  The outer bearings are a little pricey, but good quality.

 

Good to hear! I hope this is a sign of a few other things becoming available again?

[1925 Packard 243 Series 8 Cylinder 7 Passenger Touring]

One must appreciate progress on projects like this! There is a certain satisfaction in undoing nearly a hundred years of neglect and abuse.

Thank you for the update.

[For Sale: 1927 Ford Model T Touring Car - $14,500 - LeClaire, IA - Not Mine]

As I understand it, the company making the replacement front wheel bearings for model Ts for years quit making them. Good NORS ones are tough to come by, and have been selling for some crazy prices. Model A and some early V8 wheel bearings can be made to work, however to fit properly the model T outer bearings need to be threaded internally to lock into place and not rapidly wear out the spindle.

[Unusual early tail lamp]

That type tail lamp was made and offered to automakers with their marque name in the widow. They were also offered through catalog sales and local parts dealers with any of many marque names. Some such lamps used actual glass for that marque window, others used a type of celluloid plastic with the names printed on it. In the photos, that one looks like a typical celluloid, and I would also guess "PONTIAC". A pretty upscale accessory for a low priced car, but people did back then also.

[Spring Carlisle Pix 2024]

1 hour ago, Rod P said:

Loved this pic. Memories, or dreams?

 

 

I think you nailed this one! Written on his face!

[Period images to relieve some of the stress]

4 hours ago, Dave Mellor NJ said:

 

Henry and a young Edsel in a model F Ford (1905 or 1906), one of the last two cylinder model Fords before the model T.

 

 

[Unusual early tail lamp]

My 1927 Paige 6-45 sedan has its original tail lamp (not like this one!), which is a simple however unusual style that I have never found a complete one quite like it at a swap meet. I have seen a few same model Paige cars that have the same tail lamp, and a couple pictures or era advertisements showing it as being the correct lamp. The original Paige tail lamp has a simple two bolt mount on it that exactly fits the spare tire carrier where the tail lamp was originally mounted. What I did find and buy at a swap meet about forty years ago, was an exact match for the lamp itself, but with a universal mounting bracket very similar to what your tail lamp has. I have seen a few other tail lamps with similar universal mounts. Lamp manufacturers of course wanted to increase sales anywhere they could, and it would make sense that they should offer universal replacements of lamps made for other cars.

 

That is a neat looking lamp! it could make a great after-market touch for many a roaring '20's car!

[Gray tire paint ??]

Fingers crossed it all comes through just right!

[Interesting finds at local scrap yard]

We had a 1984 Jaguar XJ6 for several years, similar to the one above. Ours was more of a brown, the build sheet inside the car called the color "tobacco". I loved driving the car, hated to work on it (talk about a nightmare changing the water pump!). We eventually sold it when a significant repair was needed and between work problems and family issues I simply didn't have any time to get in and do the repair.

Try to restore the one above? Thank you, NO!

[Old car in Uruguay 1917 - Car #2]

Thank you Ariejan! Nice to know that a relic in and old photo still exists.

[Old car in Uruguay 1917 - Car #3]

Might have been? Car would have been over ten years old in 1917. And looks like the engine may be gone already? Also, it looks like it may be a rear entrance tonneau? I didn't think Ford used a rear entrance that late. But the hood front/radiator looks too large for the 1904 model.

[Get a horse]

I have seen a better copy of this photo before. In it one could see a few cables or rods running over the car's seat and stretched back to where the fellow can pull then or turn them to operate the car. The digital matrix in this picture loses that stuff in the busy background.

[Everybody laves 34 Fords]

6 hours ago, Dave Mellor NJ said:

Am I wrong?

 

Don't ask me? Nice era photo though. Thank you for posting it.

[Spare Tire Lock]

It appears to be one of the many dozens of spare tire locks made and sold by "Oakes" in the 1920s. They made many different ones to fit specific cars as well as common types that might fit many cars. Dozens of automakers offered them as factory options as well as dealer options. The keyed lock unit itself was usually one of about three common sizes.

[Period images to relieve some of the stress]

9 hours ago, JRA said:

This garage was in New York City, where, according to the internet, in 1930, it was one of the first locations converting to a 2 letter / 5 number telephone numbering plan. 
By the way, when I was a kid, I lived in a very small town in Brazil, in the 1980s, where the telephone numbering just had 4 digits, and any long distance calls (all phone numbers outside the town) had to be connected through an operator.

 

Thank you for that research! The history of telephone communications is interesting, and very complicated. For all the talk of the ubiquitous "Ma Bell" for half a century? The reality was that telephone systems for more than a hundred years were mostly regional, and many of the companies were very small. 

I worked for over thirty years in communications systems contracting. We did it all, from digging the trenches to bury cables to servicing connections in people's homes and business. While most of our "bread and butter" work was television systems related, much of it was early programming by satellite, we also did a lot of information technologies (long before they called it "IT"), and some telephone systems. We serviced one of the last small local telephone companies in the Santa Cruz Mountains in California. My dad was one of the last technicians that had real experience with and understood the old automatic dialer mechanisms. Some of the equipment we serviced dated from the 1920s! And replacement parts hadn't been made since the 1960s. Just a few years before my dad died, that system was taken over by one of the larger "small companies" and the switching went to modern digital equipment.

Most local phone companies had to meet specific requirements for compatibility, however, as late as the 1980s, there were still many small local companies that had to connect long distance through a human operator.

 

I have often wondered when some major area went to the modern exchange name and five numerical digits phone numbers. Thank you for that! It was something I did not know was quite that early. (It is amazing how far back some of these things do go?)

[Period images to relieve some of the stress]

On 4/17/2024 at 2:21 PM, 30DodgePanel said:

 

Such a fantastic photo! So much to see in it. The tow trucks, the building, the signs. What surprised me a bit though, was the phone number on the hoods? They had a seven digit phone number! Most of the country (and the world?) didn't expand to that point until after WW2. When I was about eight, we moved to a new suburb outside San Jose California, and the "exchange" we were on was "ANdrews". For first two numbers, one dialed the appropriate numerical digit for each of the first two letters in the exchange name. Exchanges were usually named after some person, business, or historic area name, that identified the area of the exchange. Before direct dialing, one would ring the operator, and request the phone number by the exchange name and then the however many digits phone number that followed it. Even in the 1950s, many smaller exchanges had only three or four numerals following the exchange name.

 

 

 

[Get a horse]

A model T Ford! 1912 torpedo roadster to be exact, with one of the common "make-a-tractor" kits available in those days. What is interesting, is that the torpedo roadster was one of the very few model T cars that from the factory had a large round gasoline tank mounted outside behind the seat, instead of under the seat or hidden somewhere inside the body.

Every time I see this photo, I wonder where the farmer put the gasoline tank and what he might have used?

[For Sale: 1927 Ford Model T Coupe - $11,500 - Hilltop, CO (Denver) - Not Mine]

20 hours ago, alsancle said:

I really like these coupes.  I'm sure I would drive it straight in to a brick wall.

 

Remember AJ, model Ts were designed to be driven by people that had never driven any car in their lifetime up to that point! In past years, when I did have occasions to teach newcomers how to drive a model T, the first thing I would tell them was to forget everything they learned about driving after about the age of six. At six, you knew mommy and daddy sat behind the wheel, turned a key of some sort, pressed a pedal or two and started the car. Then pressing pedals and moving a couple levers they began driving the car while turning the steering wheel to and fro. From that point, a model T Ford is one of the easiest cars to learn to drive.

[Gray tire paint ??]

Me personally? I have used tire black and whitewall paints years ago. I thought they did not hold up well at all when driven on. I have had better luck just using common spray can enamel paint on tires. A few times years ago, I got second hand whitewall tires that I wanted to use on cars I did not want whitewalls on it. I used spray can black enamel paint then turned the painted side in, and after a few thousand miles of driving was surprised at how well they still looked.

 

 

11 hours ago, JRA said:

Were the gray tires offered as options or standard in 1923 Kissel and other years? Was this option also offered in other car manufacturers in that period? In addition to that reference picture, were you able to find other references about the gray tires? Were these tires produced by the large manufacturers as Goodyear, Firestone and others at that time, or smaller companies?

 

I have spent quite a bit of time researching tires of the early days into the 1930s eras. I can tell you it is not an easy subject. A lot of what people think they know may be based in fact? But is not actually accurate.

Most early tires before about 1910 were some sort of gummy off white color that varied greatly in how far "off" white they were, and then the color changed due to the harsh road conditions on the day. That off white gummy stuff was basically the result of the natural base rubber used to make the tires, and crude hand work in the manufacturing process used in the early days.

During the 1910s, several things happened. Rubber shortages due to the greater demands first by the automotive industry, and then the outbreak of the "Great War" lead to finding ways to get more miles and more tires out of the limited supplies of natural rubber. In this country (the USA) marketing also tried a bunch of novel approaches to selling tires. Multi-colored tires was a popular theme during the 1910s into the early 1920s. Whole the black and white photography of the era does not show it, and color publication was expensive and rare in periodical magazines, tires were in fact sold in a wide variety of color combinations where the tread and sidewalls might be different or all one color. A private collector I know has several early era tires displayed on his shop's walls, and because I have been interested in the history, I have seen numerous other examples of surviving early tires. Various colors including but not limited to red, gray, white, green, blue, yellow, and black were used, I have personally seen sever white tread, green sidewall tires, one white tread blue sidewall, gray tread red sidewall, gray tread white sidewall, among a few others. All of those in early automobile size tires (several in 28 X 3 clincher, some in 30 X 3 1/2 clincher). I have long wanted some of those, but have never found any available at a price I could afford.

Brightly colored tires were fading away in the early 1920s, however, I have seen advertising for them as late as 1923.

Automobile manufacturers didn't help either with good records of tires used. As Walt Gosden here has said many times, manufacturer's advertising was geared toward selling cars, and being attractive to potential buyers. As colored printing periodicals became more common, manufacturers often showed advertisements  of cars in colors they may or may not have actually been available? They also often showed whitewall tires on cars that rarely if ever were actually sold with whitewall tires. In the 1910s and early 1920s, "whitewall" tires were not a "stylish" option. They were a step up from all whites which wore out quickly, but not as good as the all blacks which where stronger and lasted longer.

Again, the B&W photographs of the era often do not clearly show this, however, if one zooms in closely and looks carefully, it can be seen that black tread white sidewall (both sides!) tires were common in the later 1910s and early 1920s. They were common on model T, Fords and can be found also on high end cars of that era. Part of th issue with photographic record is that he roads were harsh in those days. Dust collected on tires quickly, and regardless of the colors, became one big dusty gray-brown very quickly. 

Most "factory" photos of the day were staged! The professional photographer was coming, and the cars detailed and prepared in advance! Something I have found very interesting in studying model Ts is how many era photos if looked at closely enough (if the photo is good enough?) do clearly show nearly new model Ts with black tread white sidewall tires. However, "factory" photos usually show all black tires! I have seen a few "factory photos" where the unfinished car nearest the camera has all black tires, but a couple cars behind it there are those white sidewalls again! Have to make it look good in the photos.

 

All white tires were out of style by the 1920s, although I have seen indications they may have still been available. Most common tires by the mid 1920s would have been somewhere between a medium gray and black. "Whitewall" tires as a style began in the mid 1920s, with advertising showing them by 1925. Several longtime friends years ago had Buick automobiles of the 1920s, and through them I saw many copies of Buick factory photographs showing late 1920s Buicks with double sided whitewall tires on them! Many era photographs seem to indicate that most Buicks in those years did not have whitewall tires on them, single or double sided.

 

What Kissel did usually or occasionally in those years I do not know. But if they were like most manufacturers those days? What they did probably varied a bit. They sure do look good in gray on the Goldbugs!