Ariejan NL
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Posts posted by Ariejan NL
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This is one of those photos which seem so easy, but turn out not to be and then become some sort of obsession. As it is my experience with American cars that everything has to fit, we are looking for a car with: 10 spoke wheels front with 10 bolts; a connecting rod in front of the front axle; rather flat front springs; this type of front fenders with straight front end; a Mercedes-type hood with medium height filler tube; a footboard with steep incline towards the dash; a touring body with a central body line.
This search of course took a while (i.e. many hours), and just when I thought about giving up this car came by: a 1908 Premier model 30. All details fit except that the rear fender seems to be slightly more curved at the end, but that could be an optical illusion. I attached an example of the 1908 model 30, quality not so well because it comes from the yearly make and model overview as published in the Cycle and Automobile Trade Journal (March 1908 p.45), so rather small images. The front part of the car is better seen on the other 1908 Premier image, a special with a different body (Motor Age, 3 Sept. 1908 p.3).
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Yes, of course you're right. Ca 1911/1912 seems to be a much better date. Fits with the Mitchell tie rod/front axle arrangement, and with the Hudson.
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Cadillac with these scripts on the wheelhubs seems improbable. Better option would be Buick, I suppose.
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The photo must have been taken around 1908. All recognizable cars are different, so the event possibly was some kind of club tour. Starting on the left of the main picture we see probably a Hudson (the triangular badge is vaguely visible on the top of the radiator shell), followed by a Mitchell (oval light badge). The large speedster is a Thomas Flyer, followed by a Packard. The car on the extreme right seems to be an Oakland.
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I do not believe they are correct. A problem of course is that the complete body including hood and radiator has been a coachbuilder's job, probably by the earlier mentioned Nordberg. I uploaded the Norberg Mors image too and you will notice the similarity of body and hood with your car. What normally remains original of course are chassis and wheels. The rear springs with C- and half elliptic spring combination were used by Berliet and not by Benz (who used a half elliptic spring with outward bent dumb iron). Moreover you will notice the similarity between the wheel of a 1913 Berliet and the wheel on you car: if you compare these you can almost read the text on the wheel of your car. Also you can compare the wheel with a Benz wire wheel of the same period and you will notice the difference in wiring system.
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Uploaded an image of a Berliet with a similar shark nose front during the Swedish Summer Trials of 1913. Although it is not the same car as in the mystery picture (different front fenders and windshield, artillery wheels), my impression is that the wheel hubs of the mystery car are more Berliet- than Benz-like. Also the rest of the body is very similar to the Berliet. The shark nose front definitely doesn't have a French origin. Could the coachbuilder have been Nordberg? On the site coachbuild.com a Mors can be found with a slightly different type of shark nose, but similar in appearance.
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The car is a 1909/1910 Oldsmobile model DR Flying Roadster. Oldsmobile type hup caps, flattened hood top, hand grip on the hood and controls just under the steering wheel are the main identifying features.
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The car is a Cole 1917 Eight model 861 Tuxedo foursome. Image from the Library of Philadelphia Digital Collections. There is one small difference and that is the downward curve of the boot, which seems to be better proportioned in your case than in the original model! Or is it just a matter of photographic angle?
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It seems that Rambler was the first make to introduce the sedan on the American market end of 1911. In Automobile Topics the body was described as an inside drive four-passenger coupe, but in a Rambler's advert of early 1912 it is praised as the cheap alternative for the chauffeur driven limousine. Again the similarity of the bodywork with your body is obvious. Remarkable is of course the asymmetric window configuration because of the different position of the entrance doors.
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Before the first World War in the USA this type of body was called an inside-drive limousine, at some point around 1914 they started to be called sedan. A front door for the driver and a center door on the other side for the passengers was the common configuration. Added a 1912 Auburn limousine with quite similar looks. Normally every body style in the USA was very specific for each make, so it could be that your limousine body was used on an Auburn before, but I have not enough examples of other makes to be sure.
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The car is probably a 1918 Buick. Still with right hand steering for obvious reasons, whereas in the US all Buicks used left hand steering from about 1914.
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This body looks a bit like the body by Phénix, presented at the Paris Salon of 1912. The chassis was different, which was Bellanger. Your car certainly is somewhat later, 1914 or maybe already 1919, looking at the body style, the electric (side) lights and the closed wheels. I have no idea of the make at the moment, though.
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Many electric cars hardly changed shape during almost a decade, so that makes a search difficult. However I'm now pretty sure now that we see a 1909 or 1910 Woods Queen Victoria roadster, based on several details like side steering lever, high front trunk, spring shape, side lamp shape and some more. So not as old as you would expect, but still at least 4 years old when this photo was taken!
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"Watch the German silver, V-shaped radiators, you see them everywhere" Oakland wrote in their 1914 catalogue. This radiator type was first used in 1913. It seems to be a large car, could be the six. Interesting the double bend in the chassis, I hadn't noticed that before!
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The difference between the Light Six and the Light Twelve was that the Six had wooden wheels and fabric tires, whereas the Twelve had wire wheels and cord tires.
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The only car out of the line is the car on the left, which appears to be a ca 1907 Wolseley-Siddeley. The other three cars are all 1907 Cadillac models, from left to right the model G touring, the model K runabout and the model H touring. The only missing 1907 Cadillac model is the model M touring!
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Interesting vehicle with intriguing hood and rad shape. This picture I found on the internet saying that it is a McLaughlin-Buick. If it is, it must be of an earlier date because of the fender shape (around 1910-1912), and moreover the hood and rad shape differ from the usual shape, which is of course Buick-like. Also the hub caps differ, but on the other hand these lamps can be found on Buick models. Did they maybe have a separate utility division producing this type of vehicle? Anyway, in my files these are absent, so I cannot verify this assumption.
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Two makes come to mind because of the shape of the radiator shell: Pope-Hartford and Haynes. It appears to be a 1908 Haynes type W 45hp or a type U 60hp. It's difficult to see which one because of the visibility of the car.
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Stoddard-Dayton indeed, but 1909 is a bit difficult if the photo was taken in 1907 😉 1907 will be correct, as this high rad filler tube was used from end 1906 until somewhere in 1908.
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The car is a 1913 Paige(-Detroit) model 25 touring. Compare the tiny rear door as well as other details like the tight bend of the rear fender. An almost similar Paige of 1912 was photographed in Christchurch, New Zealand, proving they were sold over there.
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Thanks for the second image, which indeed seems to be the same car though without windscreen. Radiator shape can be seen better now: round top, round sides with an inward curve at the bottom and straight lower side. This makes also clear that this car is lacking in my archive. Conclusion is that it is definitely American and either an obscure make, a lesser known model of a well-known make, or a car with homework. Personally I'd opt for the first possibility, but whatever the case I have no hope of solving this mystery for the moment. Hopefully someone else comes up with new information or a bright idea.
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The lamps seem to be Rushmore searchlights and were used indeed on locomotives, but were also used for marine purposes and for cars. The presence of these lamps seems to indicate that the photo was made in the US, but gives no definite answer about the car being American or European. Unfortunately the vagueness of the photo makes it impossible to see the exact shape of the radiator: is it completely round or not? The radiator filler cap is unusual, the hood (bonnet) seems to be smooth, no louvres visible.
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The fourth photo really puzzles me. Even can't decide if the car is European or American. Do you have any idea of the location of the photo?
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The Motobloc posted by Leif Holmberg is not a Motobloc, but a 1907 Mieusset. A bit more rare than a Motobloc!
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1907 vintage touring
in What is it?
Posted
Wayne, thank you for your kind words. Indeed many people know me only by name: I travel more in time than in space, so normally I am 'working' from home. If necessary I am always approachable by e-mail and many people contact me in this way. Car identification on photos of the brass era is my specialty, both in Europe and in America, a combination with many advantages. For some time now I follow the AACA Whatisit pages on a regular basis, and I'll help wherever I can.