ericbt

Can you share a picture of the casting numbers found under the distributor next to the breather? With that information I should be able to narrow down what you have.

That looks more like a 1958 to 1960 fender part. The 1954-1956 fenders are the same, the 1957 fender is nearly identical to the 1954-1956. 1958-1960 are the same in that area. The previous information is for 1/2 ton to 1 ton 2wd. 1 1/2 ton and larger as well as 4wd are different and have different interchanges. Eric

I'm working on the body tags for 1933-1938 Dodge and Plymouth trucks and I'd be interested in pictures of the two tags (square serial number tag and oval body tag) on the firewall of your 1934 KH30 to help in my research. Thanks, Eric

Thanks for adding the engine number. FCA historical can't look anything up by engine number, but if you gave them the serial number and the registration with the engine number I think you should be able to get the build card. I agree that the data you have should be enough to prove you own it if the engine is original. Nice to see such an original truck with all the original pieces. I don't have many examples where I have all the numbers from that era. In the 1930s I frequently have just a body tag and frame number or just an engine number sometimes. I found a MC last year with the tags missing, the frame so rusty that the number was gone (I cleaned the frame to bare metal in the more common areas and it was just solid pits with no numbers). I was lucky the engine number remained for me to document. Eric

Jim, The symbol to the side of the serial number ranges is supposed to imply both models were made in both ranges. The number that start with 8 are Detroit production and the numbers that start with 9 are Los Angeles production. Thanks for sharing your body tag. That is the correct for the second batch of KC, KCL trucks. Do you by chance have the original engine or a build card? Just looking for more data to use for future comparisons. Eric

The serial number range is the same for the KC and KCL. The only way to tell which one you have is the tag or the wheel base. The serial number should be on the frame as well, but I don't know exactly where on your KCL. I have seen them in a few places around that era. Can you share the body tag for your KCL? Eric

That is a pretty rare truck, but it isn't a high demand item as very few people know the early Fargo trucks exist. The only thing they share with the later Fargo trucks is the name as these were designed based on car parts available prior to the acquisition of Dodge Brothers by Chrysler. Neat thing to see. Thanks for sharing pictures. I think you'll have to just guess on value as you won't find many if any others that have sold in that condition recently. The best bet to me would be eBay as you'll reach a larger audience. That's important with an oddball brand like this. Good luck! Eric

I can't quite read the smaller tag. What are the numbers after H-2-2-LR? Neat truck and a neat history. Thanks for sharing the pictures and story. Eric

I will start with a question as the information provided doesn't quite match my research. I grouped the data as I see it from the pictures above. Is this correct? 9204501 KC 4000 LBS B-1-2-LR 13615 8364440 What model is it? Based on the serial it could be anything from a K19 to a K34. 10500 LBS B-1-2-LR 4157 If that is not the data on the tags or it is not grouped correctly please let me know what the correct information is. The body tags belong to the cab and the prefix tells you the type of cab. The suffix is the sequential number in that series. It has nothing to do with the build of the truck and it is not a number used prior to the serial number being assigned. I don't know all the reasons that the cab got a number, but one reason is so the parts book can list changes by body number. If you look in the parts books you'll see notes like "After body number 45734" and the like. Since the body tags go with the cab they are not in order. It is not uncommon to find the body tag for a truck is off by hundreds from a truck one serial number away. The two examples given are a little odd. B-1-2-LR is normally associated with the KC only. The 1 1/2 ton trucks are normally B-2-2-LR so it is strange that this one is B-1-2-LR. Unless this is three cabs worth of data? If it is all on one cab is there any evidence anything has moved? I sometimes find that things aren't consistent in production so it is possible that both trucks came with the B-1-2-LR number, but I have data from a truck 500 serial numbers back and it is a B-2-2-LR. I look forward to hearing what the model is and if I read the numbers right. If anyone else has tags they can share I am always collecting more data so I can learn more about how the numbering systems worked. Eric

I didn't make a hardcover version, sorry. Eric

I wrote a 164 page book that covers 1917-1980 Dodge, Dodge Brothers, Graham Brothers, Plymouth, De Soto, and Fargo trucks built for domestic, export, and military sales in the US and Canada. It also covers 1953-1963 Australian truck production. This is the most complete collection of serial numbers for these brands available. It covers every model of truck made for the years and brands listed. The information was gathered from hundreds of factory sources and verified by checking thousands of trucks. In addition to charts of numbers there are pictures of serial number tags and frame number locations as well as explanations of how to find and decode a serial number. Look at the link to see the book: http://www.amazon.com/dp/0997589302

I searched pretty hard to find legislation, but I couldn't find anything that specifically said VIN. I did find a lot of legislation dealing with the the standardization of liens on cars and the registration of those liens. For every example like Buick where the number changed in 1954 I find another manufacturer that didn't change their numbers until years later. This is going to be a bit of a hunt. If anyone finds anything please let me know. Thanks, Eric

I'm aware of that. Thanks! I was trying to verify the claims you see all over the internet that said the VIN started in 1954. This text is right off the NHTSA website and they are the ones that implemented the 17 character VIN in 1981: VEHICLE IDENTIFICATION NUMBERS (VINs) Since 1954, American automobile manufacturers have used a vehicle identification number (V.I.N.) to describe and identify motor vehicles. The early VINs came in a wide array of configurations and variations, depending on the individual manufacturer. Clearly this is not what actually happened based on actual serial numbers on cars and trucks and actual titles that kept using the term "Serial Number" until the 1970s.

I went and looked at pictures of titles from all over the country (on eBay and other sources) and they are not labeled VIN until the 1980s. The number used to register the vehicle from the 1920s to the 1970s are labeled things like Engine Number, Factory Number, Mfr’s Serial Number, Mfr’s Number, Engine or ID Number, MFG. NO. OR SERIAL NO., VEH. ID. By the 1980s the titles say Vehicle ID Number or Vehicle Identification Number. So If the states didn't change the label on the titles in 1954 and the manufacturers didn't all change the serial numbers on the cars/trucks in 1954 I doubt there was any federal legislation to find. If anyone has any further information I would be interested to see it. Eric

Ply33, I agree with you that things are not consistent enough to be a federal mandate. A number of manufactures did change the serial number system in 1954 or 1955, but not all did. Either there was no legislation or some companies were given time to implement the change. I will keep hunting. The information I can find online is vague at best. Every site says 1954, but none back that up with data. If anyone can find an actual rule or mandate I would like to see it. Thanks, Eric

I found this, but I haven't found the actual agreement yet. That is if this information is correct. In 1955 Willys Motors changed all of their product lines to a new vehicle ID system. In 1954, at the request of the U.S. government, Willys Motors, along with all the other U.S. auto manufacturers and the Automobile Manufacturers Association, were involved in the creation of the new, standardized vehicle identification numbering system named the Vehicle Identification Number (VIN) with an agreed upon digit sequence and concealed chassis markings of this VIN. Up to that time, some states used the engine number to register and title cars and trucks which became a problem if the engine was replaced which was fairly common at the time.

I agree that the reason most likely had to do with making the number more useful to manufactures and to DMVs, but what I am looking for is legislation that details what was done. I am also wondering what common practices were prior to 1954 (if the change was in 1954). I know some states used the engine number in earlier years. Was that standard or did other states use other numbers? Many manufactures put numbers other than engine numbers on a vehicle starting in the teens. Ford wasn't one of them from what I have read, but the Dodge Brothers did. My current speculation is that the states individually over a period of years passed laws putting them all on the same standard for titles, but it might also have been a federal mandate. I would like to know which one it was and what the reasoning was. Thanks, Eric

I am trying to research the history of vehicle registration and I keep finding references to the Vehicle Identification Number (V.I.N) starting in 1954 (it states that in the wiki on the VIN and on the NHTSA website), but I can't find references as to why the V.I.N was started in 1954 or what law or rule change was made. I am also trying to figure out what system was in place before that. I found another reference to the Uniform Motor Vehicle Certificate of Title and Anti-theft Act being adopted by the National Conference of Commissioners on Uniform State Laws in 1955 and then enacted state by state. This dealt with title fraud and liens across state lines, but it might have also included VINs? There was also a lot of traffic safety and road safety stuff being done by the Eisenhower administration around 1954 and one of those laws might have included a national VIN. Any information on the history of vehicle registration up until 1980 (1981 was when the modern 17 character VIN first proposed by International Organization for Standardization in 1977 was implemented by the NHTSA) and what a title used to call a VIN prior to that term coming into use would be helpful. Thanks, Eric

On the smaller trucks in that era I sometimes find the numbers on the frame are between the steering box and the front cab mount. There are lots of other places it might be. Look all over the left front frame rail. Eric

RD is a 1938 1 ton (models listed are RD-20 and RD-21) and 136 is your wheel base so RD-136 on the title makes sense. Is there a tag on the cowl? What is the frame number? It should be between 8920501 and 8920972 if it is a RD. Eric

I have looked over US made third party serial guides like NADA, Blue Book, Red Book, and Branhams and they have useful data. Are there any more companies that made these? Is there a comparable one for Canadian made vehicles? I'm trying to track down some information for both US and Canadian made vehicles and it is a lot easier to find these guides when I know the name of the company that made them. Thanks for any help you can provide, Eric

I attached two images of the tag I am looking for. I just need a more readable version. Thanks, Eric

Found this "1928" while searching the web. The serial of D232217 makes it actually a 1930:

I found a site that sells this tag. Anyone know if this is based on a real truck and if so what era it is from? http://www.nostalgicreflections.com/auto2.html

I am researching the tags used on the early Graham Brothers trucks and I am having trouble finding examples of tags prior to 1927. Does this truck have tags and if so could you share an image of the tag with me? Thanks, Eric