Tom M Posted February 28, 2006 Share Posted February 28, 2006 This past weekend I went out to the garage to clean up the block on Old Bessie. I have been following this thread in the AACA tech forum where some one posted a question on low compression on one cylinder.Quote from other forum <div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Quote:</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Sounds like the cylinder walls look good - cover the pistons with Marvel Mystery Oil or ATF and let soak...if it drains past the rings, cover the piston again and continue to soak, for several days to a week - for the benefit of the rings.</div></div> I figured since I have my head off I pour some oil (10w30) on top of the pistons and see what happens. Well would you not know it 4 out of 8 the oil has leaked/drain past the rings.Few questionsDose it depend on where the piston is in the cylinder for oil to holdDo I have some bad rings? If this is the case do I need to do a ring job, hone cylinders etc? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tom M Posted February 28, 2006 Author Share Posted February 28, 2006 Another Picture Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest imported_Speedster Posted February 28, 2006 Share Posted February 28, 2006 Yes, it's important to have the pistons Above about halfway down, cause there's a small hole in side of cylinder wall where oil is pushed thru, by piston skirt, to oil valve-springs and tappets, as piston goes down. If all rings, on a tested piston, are above that hole, then the oil should stay in cylinder a long time but it will eventually drain past rings, even if they are good. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Randy Berger Posted February 28, 2006 Share Posted February 28, 2006 I think the reason they said to use MMO was that it would help free sticky rings where using plain oil will not have much effect. Using MMO in your gas is supposed to help sticking valves also. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tom M Posted February 28, 2006 Author Share Posted February 28, 2006 Rick,Phew and Thanks. Thought I would have had to do a ring job. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Albert Posted February 28, 2006 Share Posted February 28, 2006 Oil will go throught the end gaps in the rings. when i have been working on doing valve jobs on my cars, i pour diesel and atf fluid on the tops of the pistons and let soak, which does seem to free up the rings quit nicely, then before i put the head back on i wipe up the excess and put some motor oil on the cylinder walls to help on the startup. the motor will smoke like crazy for the frist few minutes after but i know there is enough lubracation on the cylinder walls not to damage the cylinder walls or rings as sometimes the engine has not run in over 20+ years. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tom M Posted February 28, 2006 Author Share Posted February 28, 2006 Hi Al,The car was running before I pulled the head. Thanks for the tips. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Silverghost Posted March 2, 2006 Share Posted March 2, 2006 Tom: Did you do a compression test BEFORE you pulled the cylinder head??? You may have some stuck or Cracked rings...thus your oil gets past the rings faster than normalOil will drain down in time...Also if there is cylinder taper in your engine from top to bottom... the position of piston travel (up & Down) might also cause more oil loss at one position than another!!!Since your head is already off...Why don't you consider installing new rings after using a Glaze Breaker hone to restore a proper cross-hatch pattern on the cylinder walls???When was the last time this engine had new rings???Do you know???You are already halfway there...The head is off!!Rings are very cheap!!! I would go for new rings!!! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tom M Posted March 2, 2006 Author Share Posted March 2, 2006 Brad,No I did not do a compression test before I pulled the head for the second time now. <img src="http://forums.aaca.org/images/graemlins/mad.gif" alt="" />Not sure when or if new rings have ever been installed. The engine must have been apart at one time because the pistons have numbers stamped in them unless the numbers are from the factory. I did the finger nail drag test on the cylinder wall and there is a very little lip. Your right about the rings they are not that expensive. I have been pricing them. I already have an order placed with Max Merritt for some stud bolts and Acorn Nuts. Maybe I should call them and order rings. Would I need standard or oversize?Was checking pricesEgge $53.00 for set (can this be right?)Max $100.00Kanter $132 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tom M Posted March 2, 2006 Author Share Posted March 2, 2006 I just called Max he stated the the rings may be a little higher price due to a fire from their supplier. Anyone here of that?I am waiting a for a reply back from Egge. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Silverghost Posted March 2, 2006 Share Posted March 2, 2006 TOM: Most pistons, if they are oversize replacements, have the size stamped on the top. You may have to clean off any carbon deposits to read the markings. Standard origional pistons may, or may not, be stamped (Std.). You might just have to measure the bores with an inside micrometer to be sure... I would think if they had been replaced they should be marked!!!I would replace the rings!!!As I have said before...You are Halfway there already!!!If you find that you have standard "origional" pistons then you should use standard size rings...NOT OVERSIZE!!!The fact that the pistons are marked #1 #2 #3 etc. sounds like these are factory installed pistons...as they often did number them like this! Replacements are usually not marked #1 #2 #3 etc. Some factorys fitted each piston to a specific bore and the numbers reflect this fact.Doing a Re-Ring job is very easy...Be sure you use a glaze breaker hone to put a cross-hatch pattern on the cylinder bores.This will help your new rings seat & aid in good oil control!!! Most people don't really understand how important this step is!!!You must use a hone. You can buy these glaze breaker hones at most good auto stores for about $ 30-$ 50 ...Buy an extra stone set or two...(About $10-$15 )They will come in handy for future jobs on other cars you just can't live without!!! (I have been down this road many many times!!!) That top ridge you saw should be removed with a ridge reamer tool...(Not very costly) You should do this BEFORE you remove the pistons. If you do not... you could break the old rings and have a tough time removeing the pistons!!! The ridge should also be removed so the newly installed top rings don't bump into this old ridge and crack or shatter!!! I have seen this with newly installed rings!!! Some people use emory cloth or sandpaper to do this if the ridge lip is very slight!!! I am not a big fan of getting sandpaper grit in, and around engine internals!!!I always use the ridge reamer tool ( about $30-$50) (Sears sells these, along with the Glaze breaker hones, as do most good Auto supply stores!You will also need a piston ring compresser, ( a metal band-like unit to aid in in re-istalling your pistons and new rings...($20-$30) at Sears- Auto stores etc!!!Don't be afraid to try a re-ring job...It is very straight foreward & simple to do!!!If you re-ring now...you may never have to do it again!!!You will be glad you did this job for many years to come!!!Ring materials today are far better than in the 20s-30s !!!In my father's era...most home mechanics would do their own re-ring jobs routinely!!! Let us know what you decide to do!!! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tom M Posted March 2, 2006 Author Share Posted March 2, 2006 Brad,Sounds like the way to go. Like you said as long as I have it apart I may as well do it only once. I did rebuild a 455 motor from a 1970 GTO I had with a friends help. The tools were his thou. Maybe he can lone them to me again.I will have to check home email tonight to see if EGGE got back to me yet.Not sure why EGGE is %50 cheaper then Max or even Kanter. I put my order on hold with Max after I decide on whom to get the rings from. Max told me I should replace all the Chrome Acorn Nuts due to they may be different then the ones I have already. But at $135 ouch.Thanks for the push on this. I was going to just fix springs and valves and then start some body work, pulling fenders etc. to get stripped and painted. But since this engine thing and your support I will get the mechanics done first. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest BigKev Posted March 5, 2006 Share Posted March 5, 2006 For Chrome Accorn nuts try this. They are alot cheaper.http://www.boltdepot.com/product.aspx?cc=7&cs=133&cm=76 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tom M Posted March 6, 2006 Author Share Posted March 6, 2006 Kev,Thanks. 1/2 the price compared to other sites. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest imported_Speedster Posted March 6, 2006 Share Posted March 6, 2006 Tom, Were the Other Acorn nuts also Grade-2 ? That might account for the difference in price? I was thinking the ones we need are Grade-5 or 8 Strength, but not sure? Grade-2 may work okay, I've never checked on that? I know the bolts are usually Grade-8. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tom M Posted March 6, 2006 Author Share Posted March 6, 2006 Rick,Good question. I am not sure the other sites don't state grade. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest imported_Speedster Posted March 6, 2006 Share Posted March 6, 2006 I checked at ARP website and their stud-bolt-Nuts are not graded as 2,5 and 8. They only give a tensil strengh rating in psi. But evidently neither are their bolts, so that wasn't much help. <img src="http://forums.aaca.org/images/graemlins/confused.gif" alt="" /> Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tom M Posted March 6, 2006 Author Share Posted March 6, 2006 Rick,Who is ARP? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest imported_Speedster Posted March 6, 2006 Share Posted March 6, 2006 They're probably the most famous head bolt manufacturer in the world. <img src="http://forums.aaca.org/images/graemlins/wink.gif" alt="" />They also make other engine hardware. They're probably the 'best' made. <img src="http://forums.aaca.org/images/graemlins/cool.gif" alt="" /> But NO Acorn nuts. <img src="http://forums.aaca.org/images/graemlins/crazy.gif" alt="" />http://www.arp-bolts.com/ Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tom M Posted March 7, 2006 Author Share Posted March 7, 2006 Well got home from work today temp in garage was pretty decent to work on old Bessie. I drain the oil (boy did it take awhile it was pretty thick) while it was draining I cleaned up the stud bolts for the head. Once oil finally drained I dropped the pan (stubborn getting off guide pins on rear of pan). Went to pull Number on piston and she won?t come all the way out. It is hanging up on the connecting rod on the bottom of the cylinder.Do I need to pull the rings off at topside then pull the piston out from bottom? Things where going well too. UrggCan the connecting rod pin be taken out from piston or is it pressed in? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tom M Posted March 7, 2006 Author Share Posted March 7, 2006 Piston cap Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tom M Posted March 7, 2006 Author Share Posted March 7, 2006 Piston Oil hole side Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tom M Posted March 7, 2006 Author Share Posted March 7, 2006 One more. Picture of Crank Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Len Sholes Posted March 7, 2006 Share Posted March 7, 2006 Tom, I have been reading all the postings on your engine and would like to add my 2 cents worth on this subject. It sounds like you are almost going through the same thing I did on a fellows 1930 745 engine a few months ago. First of all I would not be worring about getting a set of rings until you remove the pistons and measure the cylinders to see how much taper they have. I am almost willing to bet that you will find they are more than what the spec is and the only way to repair it is to bore out the cylinders and install new oversize pistons and rings. The other thing you should be checking once you have the pistons out is the condition of the babbited rod bearings. To defend Egge on their statement about there rings will only fit there pistons is because there pistons only have three rings and I think you will find that yours have 4 rings. Also on any piston that have seen use you need to clean the ring grooves to check their condition for wear. Also you need to check to see how much side clearance you have with new rings to make sure it is with in specs. The same thing holds true on checking the end clearance on each ring in the cylinder. As for removing the rod from the piston on the 1930 engine they are just a size for size fit or a slip fit. Just remove the piston pin retainers and tap out the pin. With regards to your comment about the numbers on the pistons I think this was done at the factory as the pistons on the 1930 engine had the number 71 19 stamped on them as well as #1, #2 up to #8. The bore on this engine was standard. Make sure you take note as to the location of the stamped number and front of the engine to make sure the pistons are installed correctly onto the rods. If you come up with information on the way to disassemble and assemble the valve springs I would be interested in how you are suppose to for my own piece of mind as I elected to leave them all assembled after trying to diassemble one. I decided to leave well enough alone and just checked the spring tension on each assembled unit. A little bit of advice that I was given from a veteran Packard mechanic when it comes to removing the pistons and rods and that is once you have the cap off rotate the cranshaft until the journal is at the top and then tap your rod and piston up until the rings are all out. Makes it easier if you have someone up on top who can help you. Use the same procedure when you replace the piston and rod assembly. If you find that you need to rebabbit the rods we used Pauls Rod & Bearing in Parkville Mo 816 587-4747 and I was very impressed with the quality of work they did and the fact that when I checked the bearing clearances they were right on spec. I miked the journals in two spots 90 degrees apart and supplied them this information when we sent the rods to them. If you do find out that your cylinders need to be bored out its not to bad of a job just to remove the row of bolts that hold the cylinder assembly to the crankcase and take it to a machine shop who at the same time can grind you valve seats. One other thing that you might want to check and that is the timing chain. If you have adjustment left on the generator then you are probably ok. On the engine that I was working on it could not be tightened any more so we replaced it. If you end up replacing it be prepared to remove the vibration damper it is not a one piece assembly but comes apart very easily. Does your engine have an oil filter assembly on it? If so you will be faced with making a decision as to replacing it as it can not be taken apart to clean. I hope I haven't scared you to death on the pitfalls of what you might run into but thought I should pass on what happened to me when I was asked if I could get a fellows engine running in his car that had not been run for 29 years. In his case it ended up as a major and to be honest I should have convinced him to pull the engine as the camshaft and crankshaft were the only things not removed from the crankcase and it would have been much easier to clean these items if I had them out on the shop floor. Good luck and keep us informed on your progress. One last thing I just remembered is that we got our gaskets from Egge and I found that some of the gaskets did not fit the way they should almost like the holes were out a small amount. The two that were the worse were the gasket betwen the crankcase and cylinder block and on the head gasket I had to slightly enlarge a few holes. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rattpac Posted March 7, 2006 Share Posted March 7, 2006 Just looking at the posts, seems you are trying to remove a piston rod assembly? not sure on the 30's stuff but it should be basically the same as newer engines. Working with the engine on a stand? in the car OK, you need to rotate the crank journal with rod still atttached to lowest point towards bottom, remove rod cap, take 2 small pieces of fuel line, just a little longer than connecting rod bolts and push them onto the rod bolt so you don't scar the crank, rotate the crank util the piston is at the top then push rod & piston with a long wooden rod. Once out repeat with the other pistons. Make SURE you mark or check to see if the rods are already marked as to which hole they came out of. Also take note of front and rear of piston, may also be safe to scribe a little arrow on top the piston towards the radiator just so mistakes cannot happen. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tom M Posted March 7, 2006 Author Share Posted March 7, 2006 Len,I will print your response for reference thanks.Answers to some of your question.Yes the valve springs are one beep beep to take apart and put back together. I went to Home depot and bought a piece of pipe with the INSIDE diameter a little smaller then the springs. Then I cut it in half in the long direction and squeezed the springs in between the two halves in a vice. Then took some channel locks to get the one cap off that doesn?t have the slot. For the one that has the slot I have a chisel in my toolbox that fit perfectly in the slot. I am still waiting from the machine shop to see if they came up with any idea for replacing the caps.I had bought my valves from EGGE and a head gasket.My dad back in 1994 or so had replaced the timing chain.Thanks for all the good advice. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tom M Posted March 7, 2006 Author Share Posted March 7, 2006 Rattpac,The connecting rods are threaded for the bolts so no need for the fuel hose trick. While I was under car I pushed up on rod and can see it hitting bottom of cylinder. I have pulled piston out before on a 455, 350 and my wifes 86 Regal out of the top but it seems we can't do on this engine. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tom M Posted March 7, 2006 Author Share Posted March 7, 2006 Is this the tool I need to check for taper in cylinder?Precision Cylinder Bore Gauge Cylinder Bore GagePricy for as often as I do ring jobs. Wonder if I can rent one? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Albert Posted March 7, 2006 Share Posted March 7, 2006 you can get a set of bore guages that dont have the dial guage a lot cheeper, they have two sliding plungers like those, but the handle locks the plungers then the distance can be checked with a micrometer. you can also use the piston rings to check the change in bore size change by installing a ring back in the bore and squaring it up by pushing the piston from the top downward, then check the end gap with a set of feeler guage, you will more than likely find almost no ware at the bottom of the bores and the most ware just below the top ridge. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Restorer32 Posted March 7, 2006 Share Posted March 7, 2006 On 1930, 1931 and '32 Packard engines, and I'm sure other years as well, you can't get the piston and rod assemblies out of the block without removing all 8 of the con rod caps and removing the entire cylinder section as a unit. The pistons then drop out from the bottom. Same for reassembly. The pistons and rods are installed into the cylinder section then the whole unit is lowered onto the crankcase. Takes some muscle and at least 2 sets of hands. You also realize that the counterweights on the crank have to be removed before the crank can be ground? This is a major operation requiring some machining skills. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tom M Posted March 7, 2006 Author Share Posted March 7, 2006 Thought I could just pull pistons, hone cylinder, install new rings then I thought I be good to go. Didn?t think I had to go that far with it. Looks like I may be over my head with this one. <img src="http://forums.aaca.org/images/graemlins/confused.gif" alt="" /> Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Randy Berger Posted March 7, 2006 Share Posted March 7, 2006 I am posting this email I received without comment. It is not meant to be derogatory, but highlights the fact that you need the manuals for your vehicle and to read and understand them.---------------------------------------------------------------------------Gee, you'd think these guys would at least read an old Motor's Manual or SOMETHING about their cars before they start taking them apart. Of course you can't pull the rods out from the top on the 320 cubic inch Packard Eight of 29-39; the big end of the rod is larger than the bore. You remove the rod cap, push the piston up far enough to remove the wrist pin, and then take the piston out from the top and the rod from the bottom. This is spelled out in Motors, Chiltons, Glenns and all the other manuals of the day.Reassembly is a multi-person job because the pins are a push fit at 160 degrees F, so you need one guy in the kitchen with a pan of pistons on the stove, one guy underneath holding the rod up, and then the poor sucker who grabs the hot piston, holds it in the correct position between all those damn head studs sticking up, and taps the pin in. If you've seen the TV commercial with the guy who is working in an office full of chimpanzees, that's sort of what its like. A couple of six-packs make it go easier.The guy that reassembled my engine had his own method using the fact that the cylinder bores separate from the crankcase. He assembled all the pistons and rings on the rods, put them in their proper bores, and then with a hoist lowered the bores down onto the crankcase (the upper face of the crankcase has relief notches for the rod big ends to clear). Just how he got the rods to clear the counterweights I don't know, perhaps he rotated the crank and managed to just pull them down one at a time, fasten them, and then turn the crank. When finished I guess he just had to push the bores down onto the crankcase (and pray you didn't forget the gasket!!!). Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Restorer32 Posted March 7, 2006 Share Posted March 7, 2006 That's how we do it. In fact, just did it several weeks ago on a '37 Super 8. A bit of rocking back and forth of the crank allows the rod ends to pass the counterweights. Definitely a multi person job like you say. Never tried just removing the wrist pins since we almost always rebuild from scratch. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tom M Posted March 7, 2006 Author Share Posted March 7, 2006 Randy,Thanks. Sounds like the same comments I got from the other Packard forum.Who reads manuals when we have experts like you all. <img src="http://forums.aaca.org/images/graemlins/grin.gif" alt="" /> <img src="http://forums.aaca.org/images/graemlins/tongue.gif" alt="" /> <img src="http://forums.aaca.org/images/graemlins/blush.gif" alt="" />. Guess I need to find one of these manuals that spells all this out for me <div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Quote:</div><div class="ubbcode-body">in Motors, Chiltons, Glenns and all the other manuals of the day.</div></div> Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest imported_Speedster Posted March 7, 2006 Share Posted March 7, 2006 I've removed pistons from top side by removing wrist-pins but the problem I had was that the pins were not that easy to remove. I had to rig up a press using a large C-clamp and rod, to get them out. I found that I could do the complete disassembly and reassembly, by myself, by standing the engine on the flywheel end. I put 4x4 wood between the tranny mount stud bolts, to protect bolts and to make it more stable. With the engine standing on end you're not fighting gravity as much and the parts stay where you want them. <img src="http://forums.aaca.org/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" /> Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tom M Posted March 7, 2006 Author Share Posted March 7, 2006 Rick,I would do try that but engine is still in car. I will need to get some more hands. I have no kids and the dog is not much help but for licking your face while under car. <img src="http://forums.aaca.org/images/graemlins/wink.gif" alt="" /> Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest imported_Speedster Posted March 7, 2006 Share Posted March 7, 2006 Yes, a Face Licker, is usually the only help I have, Also. <img src="http://forums.aaca.org/images/graemlins/grin.gif" alt="" /> Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest imported_Speedster Posted March 7, 2006 Share Posted March 7, 2006 For disassembly of Valve springs I use a compressor similar to this one. I couldn't find one exactly like mine. I'm not sure if they still make them. If this one is large enough, it should work also. There are several designs of large C-type compressors made, tho. This is just one example.http://www.jcwhitney.com/autoparts/Produ...ng%20compressor Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Randy Berger Posted March 7, 2006 Share Posted March 7, 2006 Be glad the dog is only licking your face - he could be doing something much worse <img src="http://forums.aaca.org/images/graemlins/grin.gif" alt="" /> I can remember a field mouse running past me while I was underneath the car on a creeper - banged my head on the frame! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tom M Posted March 7, 2006 Author Share Posted March 7, 2006 Rick,This is the one I have for the valve springs. KD-700 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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