'31 Piston Ring Oil Leak Test

[Guest imported_Speedster]

Tom, have you tryed the spring compressor yet? It looks like it should do the job. Most of that type (that only go on spring) are very flimsy construction, but that one looks better?

But I'm wondering if you can get enough leverage on that screw knob?

[Tom M]

Rick,

Yes I have used it a few times already. More then I would have liked too. It works pretty well as long as you clean up the gunk of the valve stems and keys so the cap/keeper can slid up the valve stem.

[Guest Len Sholes]

Tom, re not been able to pull the piston and rod assembly up through the bore. As I told you on the 1930 745 you can do this but checking some information I have on the engines it appears that the engine I rebuilt has a 3 1/2 inch bore and it looks like yours has 3 3/16 inch bore and that is more than likely why it can not be done on your engine. If that is the case I would push the piston up, remove the piston from the rod and remove the rod from the bottom. Leave the piston skirt in the bore to give you some support as you push out the pin. This procedure will take two people as you will need some one to hold the rod up when you remove the wrist pin. You are also will need to rotate the crank to get the journal over to one side in order to be able for the rod to clear it. Use the reverse procedure to install the rods and pistons. Also the photos that you have posted of the dial bore indicators is what is used but I have seem them a lot cheaper on ebay. If you don't have one you can use an inside mic and measure the top of the cylinder just under the ring travel and do the same at the bottom of the bore and subtract the bottom dimension from the top and this will give you how much taper you have. I always take two measurements 90 degress apart just to see if the bore is true and not oval.

[Tom M]

Here is a copy of an Email I sent to another person that has been giving advice and feed back.

I really appreciate your help on this matter. Got home from work today and was trying to figure out how I was going to hold the piston up high enough for me to get the pin out. I walked around the garage and remembered we have these wooden 1/4" rods we use for staking tomato plants. So I push the piston up with the wooden rod and placed a brick under it. Now the next challenge what and am I am going to use to push the pin out. Ding it hit me we had some left over 1/4 round when we had woods floors installed fit perfectly. It did not take much to tap out the pin. Well here my down side. I pulled #1 cleaned off the oil and low and behold a crack from the oil hole upwards. See attachment Piston Crack. Do I need to order new pistons or is the salvageable?

The other picture is of the rod and cap. As you can see some of the bearing is chipped out I am not sure if I did that or it was like that before I removed it. Do these need to be rebabbit?

Thanks

Tom

[Tom M]

Piston Rod and Bearing Cap

This reminded me by reading Rick?s '29 645 post. The rod for #1 is stamped with a 5 and one dot and the cap is stamped 1 and one dot. The rest have the same type of stamps 2 dots for number 2 etc. I wonder like Rick if this engine had some bad rods at one time and were replaced.

[Guest 1956Packard]

Tom:

In doing my research about babbit material, I was told or read somewhere that the old babbits have the tendency to become brittle.

That was found in my 31 engine. The babbit material had chipped off on a number of places.

I am by no means an expert, but I would err on the side of caution here...

Geoff

[Tom M]

Hi Geoff,

It has been awhile. How are things going on your car?

I have read somewhere here also about babbit getting brittle over time.

Len,

Can I ask what did it cost to have the rods and caps rebabbited?

Well Gents I am out of here for tonight. Need to go have a beer or two and ponder this piston problem. <img src="http://forums.aaca.org/images/graemlins/wink.gif" alt="" />

[Guest 1956Packard]

Tom, et al...

I have been able to secure the engine parts that my 31 seem to have lost along the way. I am waiting for them to be delivered. At that point off the engine will go to be re-done.

Other than that it's too dam cold up here...

Geoff

[Guest Len Sholes]

Just viewed the photo of your piston and that is not a crack in it that is the way it was made so you have one less thing to worry about. Looking at the rod photo it looks to me that that ding was made when you were trying to remove the piston and rod assembly. I would say the rod was crossways in the bore and it made contact with the crankshaft web. As for the cost to have the rods rebabbted it was $600.00 for the eight of them. Good luck.

[Tom M]

Len,

Thanks for info on cost.

Attach is a close-up of the crack. Sorry for quality. I used paint to zoom in on it. If you download the original picture you can zoom in on it and see it more clearly.

So what you all think should I buy all new piston and rings from Egge?

[Guest Albert]

I guess there is no time like the present, for replacing the pistons, at least when you are done you will know something it not going to fly apart and destroy the crank or block.

[Tom M]

First I have to thank Brad for suggesting I check/do a ring job or I would never known I had a cracked Piston.

Albert,

Sam from Egge suggested the same thing replace them all so the weights are all the same.

Thanks all of you for your help on this matter. It is much appreciated.

Now to find out where to buy a Motors, Chiltons, Glenns or other manuals of the day. Any ideas where?

[Tom M]

Pulled the rest of the pistons tonight. 4 out of 8 had cracks in them.

There was no need to ream the top of the cylinders there was really no lip just mostly carbon build up.

[Tom M]

Close up of #4 piston

[Tom M]

Close up of cylinder. That is it for tonight and maybe for awhile until I get parts.

Thanks again all.

[Tom M]

Well I am back since it was suggested I get a Manual I think I may have found some on Ebay. <img src="http://forums.aaca.org/images/graemlins/grin.gif" alt="" />

Is the the type of Manual that I need

1930-1931-1932-1933-1934-1935 Packard Service Letters

or

Is this a better one

1931-1937 1st Ed. Motor's Shop Manual 1932-33

I have this one I think at home but cover is different.

Packard 1929-1930-1931-1932 Shop Manual

[Guest BillP]

That expansion slot was a dumb idea. As the engine bore wore over the years the piston got sloppier in its travel up and down. I imagine it was this rattling around that broke the pistons. I've seen them lose the whole top half. Then just the rod and pin + the bottom half of the piston zooms up & down. You got it in time b4 larger damage. Piston OD to cylinder wall ID is an important dimension to control. Well they all are for that matter.

[Tom M]

BillP,

Are you saying these slots where cut later on in their life?s or was this done by the factory?

Should I make sure when I buy new Piston they don't have this slot, but should have the OIL hole?

[Tom M]

Al and others

I tried this late last night

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Quote:</div><div class="ubbcode-body">you can also use the piston rings to check the change in bore size change by installing a ring back in the bore and squaring it up by pushing the piston from the top downward, then check the end gap with a set of feeler guage, (Manual states the same thing how about that)</div></div> and came up with a measurement of .09 at top and it was hard to get a good measurement at bottom hard to get hand down in there but it was around .087+/- .005.

Do these numbers sound good or bad?

Could we tell by these numbers what sizes piston I need to buy?

[Guest JT]

Tom, here is a page that might help you;

http://www.hastingsmfg.com/Service%20Tips/ring_gaps.htm

[Guest Len Sholes]

Tom, re the measurement you got on your bore. Somehow I don't think the numbers you give are correct. That works out to a .078 inch taper. I think you should see if you can get the use of a dial bore guage or inside mic and measure them again to get a more accurate reading as to what the difference is. Once you have this then you should talk to the machine shop that is going to bore the cylinders and see what size they reccommend. If you end up ording the wrong oversize pistons and then take the block and pistons to a machine shop and they can't clean up the bores at the size you get you are sorta stuck with a set of pistons and will have to reorder. As for piston clearance the piston supplier usually attaches this information with his pistons. I used Egge pistons and this information was with each one. Also the machine shop that bores out your cylinders should fit each piston to its respective bore when they do their final power honeing of the cylinder.

I have to say that I have never seen pistons with the cracks in like yours.

Another item you mention is the oil holes in the cylinders that are on both sides of the cylinder. I was told that their purpose is for lubricating the piston skirts on start up. What you need to do is to make sure that none of the holes on the supply side are plugged. I know on the engine that I did some were and it took quite a while to get them cleaned out so oil would flow through them.

[Guest imported_Speedster]

I've read that it was very common to see cracks in pistons, in that location, above oil scraper (the weakest part of piston).

The cylinder wall oil holes are only on the right side of engine block and they are for oiling the tappets and valve-spring assemblies. The oil is distributed over assemblies, by hitting the cover and splashed everywhere.

Am I getting Ignored or are there still people that don't believe It? <img src="http://forums.aaca.org/images/graemlins/confused.gif" alt="" />

You can take valve-cover off right side of engine, start the engine, and See the oil being pushed thru holes from cylinders (a Lot of Oil). But don't get too close, it will probably mess up your favorite Shirt. <img src="http://forums.aaca.org/images/graemlins/wink.gif" alt="" />

I was surprised by how much oil the pistons push thru the holes. <img src="http://forums.aaca.org/images/graemlins/shocked.gif" alt="" />

If by chance you don't see any oil squirting out, then your pistons have been put in Backwards. <img src="http://forums.aaca.org/images/graemlins/frown.gif" alt="" />

[Tom M]

Rick,

I believe you because when I look down into cylinder I can see the hole in the wall.

Well looks like I will be taking block out to as long as I can find a local shop that can do it for me. I have some leads, which I will be calling once I get off of here.

Today I will pull Headlights off, maybe pull fenders etc. so I have better access to pulling this block out. It is hard reaching over these huge fenders. <img src="http://forums.aaca.org/images/graemlins/grin.gif" alt="" /> Heck Since I may be taking them off my one brother offered to help strip and paint them. <img src="http://forums.aaca.org/images/graemlins/cool.gif" alt="" />

I will let you all know the outcome. Thanks all for your support.

[Guest imported_Speedster]

Yes, it is definitly worth the work, to get those fenders out of the way. There are Many bolts holding them on, tho, and some of them will probably need to be replaced, if they have been there a while. The bolts holding the fenders to runningboards are usually very rusty and since the original bolts don't have a head, they usually spin in the hole and have to chiseled off and replaced with bolts with heads and large washers. <img src="http://forums.aaca.org/images/graemlins/crazy.gif" alt="" /> I would leave the battery-box in place, since you will want to test the engine before putting the fenders back on.

[Guest Len Sholes]

Tom, I should of had my glasses on last night when I read your post about the measurents you got on your engine. Sorry for this but according to what you got then you only have .003 thou difference.

If you are only going to remove the block assembly and not the complete engine I would not be removing the fenders, as Rick mentions you are going to run into a lot of heart ache with removing the bolts. Protect your fenders with blankets or something and reach over them to undo the nuts that hold the block to the crankcase. The hardest thing will be lifting the block up off the studs. If you have an engine hoist then no problem.

As for Ricks comments about the oil holes only been on the right hand side I can only tell you what the 1930 super 8 engine is like and it has them on both sides. If you look at the left hand side of the engine just below the water manifold there is a oil line that runs from #1 to #8 cylinder this is attached to a main oil pressure line at the back of the engine. As I mentioned I have been told that as soon as you start the engine oil pressure is now directed to this line which in turn lubricates the cylinders. To me this makes sense as if you think about it with cold oil on initial startup it will take awhile before it starts to lubricate the cylinders and with this lube line you will have lubrication to them almost instantly. The holes on the right hand side are like he says.

Good luck with your engine and keep us informed on your progress.

[Guest imported_Speedster]

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Quote:</div><div class="ubbcode-body"> If you look at the left hand side of the engine just below the water manifold there is a oil line that runs from #1 to #8 cylinder this is attached to a main oil pressure line at the back of the engine. </div></div>

Yep, Len, you are correct. I forgot all about that oil line. My wife told me I needed to start looking for an 'Old Folks Home'. <img src="http://forums.aaca.org/images/graemlins/crazy.gif" alt="" /> <img src="http://forums.aaca.org/images/graemlins/grin.gif" alt="" />

On the '29, oil is fed to that line from a manual-Valve at rear of crankcase. The valve is opened when you pull the choke closed. So the Choke knob not only closes Carb choke but it feeds extra oil to cylinder walls. At least that's the way I remember that works. <img src="http://forums.aaca.org/images/graemlins/blush.gif" alt="" /> <img src="http://forums.aaca.org/images/graemlins/grin.gif" alt="" />

As for the Old Folks Home, I told her it would never happen, cause they wouldn't let me take my Packards with Me. <img src="http://forums.aaca.org/images/graemlins/mad.gif" alt="" /> <img src="http://forums.aaca.org/images/graemlins/grin.gif" alt="" />

[Guest 1956Packard]

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Quote:</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Gee, you'd think these guys would at least read an old Motor's Manual or SOMETHING about their cars before they start taking them apart. </div></div>

No offense taken, but this isn't really very sage advice - and a little too common.

A more constructive comment would be where such a manual could be picked up. They are as about as scarce as these early thirties cars.....

[Guest Randy Berger]

I don't know how you could have taken offense - the remarks weren't directed to you. The gentleman that they were directed toward took them in the way they were intended. It may be assumed that someone who is willing to tear into an old piece of machinery has gained some knowledge of the subject by a mentor or reading a manual familiarizing themselves with the equipment. When they lack basic knowledge, it then appears they haven't learned the basics of that item in particular. I wasn't trying to give sage advice - just passing along a note suggesting that anyone should familiarize themselves with the task at hand. We have had people on this forum who refused to buy a manual saying they could get all their info by quizzing the members of the forum and then arguing with that advice when it didn't fit their preconceived notion.

Common or not, I still think it is sound advice to get a manual and/or advice before starting a major project if you don't possess the knowledge.

Your comments to me don't further the discussion or offer any wisdom - just criticism.

[Guest 1956Packard]

Randy

I do not attribute the quote to you nor did I intend to direct any criticism your way. I am sorry my post was taken as such.

I too have one of this vintage and have made general inquiries of people (through a number of different avenues). While many have been terribly helpful, I have also been met with some of these same type of comments.

Yes, I have had it suggested to me to buy the manual (had it before I asked the questions). Yes, I have had it suggested that I join a club so I may get a hold of a roster in order to get the address and number of someone who might be able to help.

I won't regurgitate the one that really pissed me off.

While I am generally thick skinned, I find these types of comments to be bordering on condescending.

Randy, again, sorry to have offended you. From you post, I understood you were just the messenger and I wasn?t shooting at you.

Tom, sorry to take this topic off course.

Geoff

[Guest Randy Berger]

Geoff, we both have tried to contribute to this forum and the members of it. Perhaps I am a little too thin-skinned. We are all in this together. I too have been snubbed by some knowledgeable people, in this hobby and others. I know the author of the original comment was not being condescending, but just dumbfounded by someone tackling a job with almost no knowledge of the particular job. I have been helped a lot by members of this forum and also by the PAC forum. Perhaps the fellows who refused to buy a manual were still fresh in my mind. In either case, let's put this behind us and continue to try to contribute to our knowledge pool.

[Guest Albert]

The story goes if all else fails RTFM... read the f... manual they do help. put is is also nice th chech with people that have done it before too.

[Tom M]

I think I may be getting a manual for my birthday next week. My twin is bidding on one. Oops I wasn't suppose to know <img src="http://forums.aaca.org/images/graemlins/cool.gif" alt="" /> <span style="font-style: italic">1931-1937 1st Ed. Motor's Shop Manual went for US $192.49 ouch. So no bid from him <img src="http://forums.aaca.org/images/graemlins/crazy.gif" alt="" /></span>

Len,

The fenders have been off once before. So no problem with rusty bolts here. Some bolts are new and some have been reused which I am going to replace.

Rick,

I found on Saturday the oil holes were plugged. So I took an awl punch it through the hole.

Had a pretty productive weekend. On Friday I pulled off Headlights and other miscellaneous trim pieces. I am glad I pulled the frame rail covers you would not believe the rust under them. On Saturday did house choirs until 11. Then out to Garage and did some little stuff until my friend came over to help me pull the Hood. I then pulled all the bolts for the block. Stood above block and a few yanks she was free. Friend was gone at this point so I just left the block lay there until Sunday when friend came back over to help me get down to garage floor. I proceeded to pull the studs from the crank case which I had two of them that would not budge. One did snap off on me, out comes the drill, easy out and JB weld. I have some picture but by the time I finished up it was bedtime. I will post them tonight.

I talked to a Local shop that has been doing Model T, A?s and some Packard?s (which he won?t take on anymore because he is busy and just spending more time on the Fords). Well we got to talking about Piston and I mention I was talking to Egge. He said to stay from them he had nothing but problems with them. He bought piston for an old Fire truck that he was doing .002 over then what they suggested. When he started engine it rattle for awhile. He dropped the pistons again and found the shirts were rubbing against the wall.

Okay I really need to know where I should get Pistons.

Egge

Ross (suggest by the person that does the Model T?s)

Arias (? Spelling)

Wiseco

Sorry for long Post

Thanks

[Guest Randy Berger]

We need to post a help here to Craig as he is on excellent terms with Ross and had them make pistons for his Packard. How about Craig, can Ross make pistons for Packin31's older vehicle?

[Guest imported_Speedster]

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Quote:</div><div class="ubbcode-body">I found the oil holes were plugged. So I took an awl punch it through the hole. </div></div>

With pluged holes and cracked pistons (at oil scraper), I doubt that much oil was getting to the valve-spring-assemblies. So maybe that was the main cause of your Spring problem ? <img src="http://forums.aaca.org/images/graemlins/wink.gif" alt="" />

From what I've heard Egge makes good pistons. Piston to cylinder clearance is determined by matching the two. The exact size of pistons usually determines the size that cylinder needs boring to. So the boring job really determines that clearance tolerance. That's the reason the pistons are stamped with cylinder numbers (that hole was made for that piston to fit).

[Tom M]

Randy,

Thanks for asking Craig.

Rick,

That could of been my spring problems but not really sure. I will be getting back to them sometime soon.

I have found a shop. They are located in Mokena Ill. (FX Performance). He said he has been doing Packard?s mostly the 12's for over 30 years. My brother will be delivering the block for me this week. Now this shop said that Egge?s pistons are much better today then the past. I will let you all know what they find with my block.

[Tom M]

Pictures from the weekend work

[Tom M]

Driver front frame rail

[Tom M]

Engine Bay

[Tom M]

Okay one more

My brother picked it up the block this evening. Should be at machine shop tomorrow at this time.

And now for the cleaning of the crank area yippee the fun work begins. <img src="http://forums.aaca.org/images/graemlins/smirk.gif" alt="" />

[Guest Len Sholes]

Rick, glad to hear you are making progress on your engine. I am wondering why you took the studs out of the crankcase. When we were looking for a piston supplier I heard about problems with Egge pistons and also heard that others have not so the owner of the vehicle that I worked on talked to some of his Packard friends and he got enough positive feed back that he went for the Egge pistons. I had given him the phone number of Ross Pistons, however he did not like the price he was quoted. I do not know how much more they were than Egge. I have a friend who is restoring a 1929 LaSalle and he got his pistons from Ross and I must say they look far superior than the Egge ones. But like I mentioned the Egge ones all checked out to specs when I checked the ring gap side clearance and the machine shop fitted them individually to their respective bore. I suppose time will tell as it will depend on how much use or miles are going to be put on the vehicle.