1921 twin six Packard info

[rb6673]

I have the manual on this auto but it does not give you procedure on how to time the distributor to engine after a complete tear down and re-assembly.

Only if the camshaft and distributor drive hasn't been disturbed.

Please help if you have any input or leads.

Thx

[Ivan Saxton]

I will try to help you.   But can you please turn your Twin  Six the right way up.  There are very few here, and scattered, and it is difficult to appreciate your photo as it is.  Traditionally I believe that the British Navy flew their flag upside down as a signal of distress.

From what I can discern of the First Series chassis photo in the AQ Packard book, the two high terminals for spark plug leads on each cap go to the front of the engine.  I believe that  the position of the spring clips for the distributer caps were originally above and below; but later changed to fore and aft.  This was probably to avoid earth contact if someone decided to remove a cap while there was power to the points.

The caps are labelled R and L , and with direction of rotation arrows. ( Of course, because the shaft that carries the rotor buttons is a single shaft driven by skew gears, those rotor buttons have opposite rotation.)

There cap terminals are marked by firing order, on what I assume to be the early cap type, the numbers are indented in the manufacture about 1/8" size.   On the later cap there are recesses about the same sixe with little black numerals on a white background  secured in those.  As you will know, the firing order of each bank is the same  1 5 3 6 2 4.  If the left and right caps are on the wrong sides of the distributer an the plug leads mounted by the cap numbers,  The spark plugs will nit fir in correct order.   There should be a top dead centre #1 cylinder marked on the flywheel,  and I shall check this later today on the engine from Sir MacPherson Robertson's 1922 wire wheel Runabout, which a friend and I bought about 1961.  I later got some other critical parts of the same car including the speedo which shows 44,000 original miles; and I believe the engine has never been apart.  I assume you already have the cylinder heads back on.  If so, it is best to remove the tappet cover or covers from the Right bank, inside the V.  This will enable you to ensure that the inlet and exhaust valves of #1 cylinder have clearance while those of #6 have none, ( which means that the exhaust is closing and the inlet starting to open).   Remove the four nuts and lift off the distributer,  and with the hand advance lever on full retard,  turn the drive shaft in the direction of rotation till the right side points under the top cover just start to open with the rotor button in the correct position that you have placed at texta mark inside the housing according to the contact for #1 in the distributer cap.   You should probably repeat this for #1 Left bank; to compare the alignment of the slot in the top of the distributer drive from below.  You would expect that the slot should either align wit the axis of the crankshaft or be transverse to it.  Knowing that Top dead centre is a different point of crankshaft rotation for 1 R and 1 L, you should be able to deduce whether  you time from Left or Right bank.

There should by rights be timing marks on the skew gears whereby the distributer is driven from the camshaft, and if you can re-set this is should make life easier.  I know I have the camshaft from the sad and incomplete 1917 project that came to me from New Zealand,  and the vertical shaft should be in one of the boxes , if I can find it.   The crankcase was stolen, and the aluminium sump;  which should have rewarded some hairless urban lower primate with a few drinks.

If you need to read this more than twice, you will understand James Ward Packard's steadfast objection to automobile engines afflicted by the complexity of multiple cylinders.

Do you chance to know where there may be a stray repairable skuttle  for a 20s Twin Six.  I have just bought a fairly decent Twin Six chassis with most of what I lack .   But the skuttle I have from New Zealand is so badly rusted on the sides that it will be very difficult to restore correctly in isolation,  and a lot of work otherwise.  It would not affect the shipping cost much if I could get another when this one comes. ( I do not have a radiator or shell either.)     I hope this helps you.

[Ozstatman]

For the sake of those on the US side of the Pacific Ocean, there probably needs to be some translation. When Ivan says "skuttle" you might know it better as the cowl section of the body, ie the forward body section from firewall to front doors, in this case for an open car.

 

Ivan, trust I haven't stepped on your toes here?

[trimacar]

And to further discuss, "skuttle" may be an alternate spelling, as "scuttle dash" is what this side of the pond calls it.  It refers to a curved dash (versus a flat dash), and I've always heard that the term references the curve's resemblance to the curve of some coal scuttles....see picture....

 

[rb6673]

Thanks to Ivan first for all the time spent trying to help.

A big thanks to Ozstatman and Trimacar for the translation.

There were no marks I could find on the drive gear and driven gear at the cam behind my chain cover.

That is where the trouble starts.

 

[rb6673]

Oh,

If anyone can tell me how to fix my photo I would.

It is right side up in my computer but di this when I submitted it.

[Ivan Saxton]

I probably should have called it the Cowl section, Mal; but sometimes using a different or contentious word will focus the reader's attention.  I was concentrating on communicating technicality in an understandable way to offer the path to the solution.      I have started to look at the flywheel markings,  which are numerous, very lightly stamped in eighth inch and 3/16th inch sizes.   I have to squeeze in between the Lancia Aurelia and the Packard in its engine stand.  In a few days I will be able to get it out and turn it 180 degrees so I do not have to read everything upside down.   I will also have to clean all the dust off so I can remove the spark plugs to get some light oil into all the cylinders, and remove the tappet covers so I can spray ATF-acetone on all the valve stems, so I can turn it over easily with the Armstrong starter.  Then I can clean the light rust of five decades or more on the flywheel circumference where everything is stamped, so I can make sense of it for you.  I can also dig out that gear pair of the camshaft and distributer drive of that engine whose crankcase was stolen.   Then I should be able to work it out for you.  I do not have the indicator plate for where there is a cover over the flywheel .   You just have to work from basic principles.  My engine has English Lucas distributer caps that Mr Ray Denny senior fitted; but we did not think he got the engine running.  They had a lot of interesting cars through their hands, including probably eight or more Tipo 8 Isotta Fraschini.   I saw a 1928 LaSalle and an early Mercedes from which they had stripped the bodies because they thought those were too far gone to restore. They offered me the Mercedes for 100 pounds,  but I was at university and could not afford 100 shillings.  That 28/95 Mercedes has moved several times and had a lot of money spent on it since then.  I saved the original back mudguards which they were going to throw out!.  Ray Denny junior told me that when he was a kid there were around a dozen Stanley Steamers Backed up to the fence in the backyard of their home.   There must have been a lot of good cars wasted.     I'll tell you when I find more.

[rb6673]

Please do not go to that trouble for me.

I am well aware on how to set TDC by corresponding flywheel mark with the proper cylinder.

The problem is I could find no marks on the drive and driven gear.

So I installed the front cover assuming the distributor cam was adjustable which would cure everything.

If it is then mine is frozen but I find no info in the Packard book to prove that notion.

[Ivan Saxton]

Matt Hinson is one of the moderators of this forum , who is likely to be able to help you fly your flag the right way up.  I spent some time trying to work out the timing marks on my engine flywheel.  You need to remove the rectangular cover above the flywheel.  I decided to loosen my engine by squirting ATF-acetone in all the spark plug holes.  I also un-bolted the valve cover plates.  These were partly undone and loose.  I Tried to carefully exclude dirt, but there was plenty in there already, so I will have to dismantle it all and re-assemble it clean.   I had removed all the spark plugs, which were a motley lot. I reckon one had such a long, hot centre electrode that it must have been for a Hesselmann  cycle, or "spark-plug diesel".   You can see into the edge of the cylinder bore through the big 7/8"spark plug holes .

It is quite easy to pick top dead centre 1R and 1L.  There are marks SR and  SL on the flywheel as you would expect,  with a fine indicator lie to match the very light line scribed on the rear edge of the rectangular inspection hole over the flywheel.   This firing datum point is when the piston is about 1/8 inch before top dead centre.  Now, as 1 and 6 fire on alternate revolutions of the engine,  it is best to remove the Right side valve cover plate,  which should be easy to remove and replace if you remove the carburettor. I can tell that the fuel which the engine ran on last was rubbish, because it had not burn very clean.  Early fuel was a mixture of paraffin   ( like kerosene), olefin, and aromatic, or benzene type structure.  Good explanation of the chemistry and characteristics of early fuel is the Sir Harry Rickardo's book "The High Speed Internal Combustion engine; and in the biography of Sir Harry Rickardo by Reynolds, titled "Engines and  Enterprise".   If you turn the crankshaft to the point where the SR mark lines up,  and the exhaust valve of cylinder   .6R has just closed, and that cylinder's inlet valve is about to open:  then re-mesh the distributer drive gears so 1 R is about to fire.   Then connect the spark plug leads from  each cylinder to the correct marked positions on the distributer cap.   It is good to get someone knowledgable to help.  Two heads are better than one on a job like this,

[rb6673]

OK,

Thanks for the help !