PreWarQc

I don't see ''crap'' going on in the market... It is a really interesting hobby BUT it is a complicated one as you need A LOT of space, money and knowledge. All things that people have less and less of... There is also other factors that come into play for buyers; will I have parts support, will I get help from other club members, will the club even survive? Those questions were not asked 10-20 years ago because the answer was obviously ''yes''... but today, who knows if the Nash club will be around in 10-15 years. Am I willing to buy a 1929 Nash for 20 000$ knowing I might possibly be on my own in 10 years with 'nearly impossible to find parts' for repair? You don't ask yourself those questions if you are an 80yo owner... but if you are 30 or 40 and looking to buy and have a minimum of common sense, you will. The hobby is not going away, but it will shrink... how much it shrinks (I think) depends partially on the current owners/club members behavior. And to witness such idiotic and infentile reaction because he did not get what he wanted for his car, does not look very good...for people peeking into the antique car world, people who might develop an interest for the hobby...

16-18k (Canadian... yes, should of specified.) I have not been looking at the market in over a year but if those cars represent the current trend (or market price-even in us currency) well I have to say that it is true, prices have started to go down. But I made my choice and I'm happy with it!

Those cars (from what I see) have little to do with the list you showed from Hemmings... Why try to prove your point by showing me (what seem to be) extremly good deals? Good deals are not representative of the market as a whole and are very rare. Never said I wanted a Pierce-Arrow. I would of liked a model A but there is none in GOOD shape under 16-18k I'm not complaining, I'm giving my opinion. Younger guys have more choice... they can buy something between 1900 and 2019... They can tune, mod, drag, drift, lowride. If I like a Model A JUST AS MUCH as a Supra, Camaro, Mustang, , why would I spend twice the amount to buy a model A? I'm going to have just as much fun with my Mustang and I'll probably meet more guys my age anyway... So THIS is the answer to the questions you guys ask youselves at your meets (why is there no younger guys here?) I'm ready to bet that its not out of lack of interest but rather when a young guy has 10 000$ to put on a car and sees (if he's interested in pre war cars) a rusted car from the 20's with mold all over the interior uphostery and then he sees a car from his youth like a Camaro IROCZ in near new condition for 10 000$ what do you think he'll choose?

Did you take a good look at those cars? They are all restoration projects... most need frame off. Some look nice if you look fast with their ''20 footer'' paint but when you turn the picture, yikes! I don't think seeing the road through the footwell is a good sign. Some have not moved for decades.

I agree with this up to a point... I mainly think that prices are kept artificially high. I would not say prices are in the stratosphere but they are high enough to keep a lot of potential enthusiasm OUT of the hobby and lots of ''investors'' with no real interest in cars - IN. Short term this is great for prices, but long term, you are not building a real base of enthusiasm and people have no choice but to pay a high price (those who can - and investors). Its a well inflated bubble, keeping new buyers out and old investors or people with a lot of money in... but lets say with stocks, when the prices fall, young people will buy... with cars, you need real enthusiasm to buy when the price is low and I doubt there will be a lot left in the coming years.

If you hear ''nya, nya, nya'', it is only created by your imagination. I noticed from my previous thread that some members have a bad habit of creating things in their mind that do not exist... I'm very happy with my car, even if its more recent. The basic idea is not to own the oldest car around but simply to get into the hobby. I would of enjoyed a pre-war car also. So it is not ''victory'' for me, it simply is what it is, you don't need to add anything else to the story.

I posted on this forum about a year ago pointing out the fact that pre war cars were desirable to less and less potential buyers and that the price of all (except of course ''pre war greats'') should and MUST go down in order to renew interest in younger generations. What I mentioned was that older guys STUBBORNLY hold on to a price they think is still pertinent and DO NOT budge. So, year after year, we all see the same cars (with the same owner) come back in the classified adds trying to sell their cars the amount they think its worth or based on false evaluation/value guides. Again, a car is only worth what people are willing to pay and for pre war cars, very few are willing to pay what people are asking and so, they rarely sell. Some RARE younger guys like me would be willing to buy one (for less money of course) but its impossible to make pre war cars owners understand that their cars are not worth what they used to. So they look for a potential car to buy for a few months, or in my case, a few years and when we realize that a good car at a realistic price is simply not possible, we simply move on. So I've been looking for a few years for a good buy on a pre war car but came to the conclusion that most owners live in another world so I gave up on the pre war market and looked at cars from my own genereation. So last winter I bought an extremely well preserved SN95 Mustang convertible. At less than half the price of a pre war car I have a perfect car with minimum wear. I also enjoy the fact that guys from my own generation also enjoy looking and talking about the car because they can relate to it. I still enjoy reading about and looking at pre war cars but I'm very happy with how things turned out and will not be buying a pre war car anytime soon... I know from experience that posting this kind of message on this forum will bring me all sorts of aggressive replies (as it was with my original post) but I really don't care. My intention here is maybe to wake some of you guys up, and so maybe help save what is indeed a dying part of the hobby.

Well yes, that picture and the fact that they'd never let anything go, is the definition of hoarding. Whether you want to or not, Bob. I'm happy this has been entertaining for you all.

Hoarding makes some people feel secure I guess. What can be said, if it works for them… The trucks in the bushes (from the links) are really nice.

I did not know there was a car exposition in the Science and Tech museum in Ottawa! Do they have cars from the pre-war era? I went on their web site and only saw cars from the 50’s. I know my kids love cars from the 50’s since I’ve owned one a couple of years ago and they loved it. Especially the fact that they could take a ride without a seatbelt. Thanks!

I’m not going to debate why what you just laid out is completely off the tracks. But one thing is for sure, I don’t care about your car, I don’t want it… you want to insult me because I’m hesitant in spending my hard-earned money? How is that something bad? It does not affect you whether I buy a pre-war or not so what is the problem? If you die, I’m not going to rejoice in the fact that I’m going to get a cheap deal, I’d rather have no car and see you in perfect health and enjoy your car… by God, this is the truth. Do you really think I wish people die so that prices come down? That’s just insane... I’ve seen a lot of people die, enough to know that death is not an old man/woman thing… it’s a human thing. I know from experience that I can die much sooner than you can… its very very possible. Do you think I worry about the deal someone will make on my Ford Flex or my Jetta if I pass and resent them for the deal they’ll have because of my passing? Come on, you can be wiser than that. I’m sure you wrote that without really thinking about it or in a bubble of anxiety towards God knows what. But be at peace, honestly, its ok. No harm no foul.

Very interesting reply, thank you.

I agree, it all comes down to the individual. As many older gents are crooks as young ones.

Thank you. The top of my list is a 1930 Essex Super Six sedan. Otherwise, I prefer cars from the late 10'', early 20'... Studebaker Special 6 would be nice but I don't think I've ever seen a car from this period that I don't like... they are all pretty spectacular to me. I’m curious… what car would that be? Agreed. Thank you, very nice of you.

I did not read this gentleman’s reply as I felt in the first sentence that it would be way over the line… so I did not see that he made a derogatory comment about my origins. Thank you for taking a stand, I appreciate it. Also, for your open mind in this post and previous ones. Our history is more deeply intertwined that we can imagine. I’ve got ancestors that were founders of cities in the states interestingly enough, the city of Detroit, along with others. One was at one time one of, if not the largest land holder in your country and I’m always fascinated about how much we are much more alike when we start to dig deep. There are almost as much Americans of French-Canadian descent than there is French-Canadians. One only need to travel to Maine, New Hampshire, Vermont, upstate NY… to take notice of this. Nothing justifies being insulted obviously what ever origin, but in this case, it does not even make any sense from a cultural perspective.

I appreciate your reply. The first couple of sentences felt like reading F. Hayek! Thank you for sharing those pictures, they are a delight to look at that’s for sure. Best regards.

Thanks for yet again telling me what my true intentions and toughts were... such a bad habit some people have here. It's ok if people don't agree with my hypothesis, but give me facts... I didn't get any. And I did not quit ''listening''. I did keep on reading. I kept an open mind but it seems your mind is made up as to what my intentions were so why bother... it truely seems like some people don't actually read, they just go over a few words as fast as they can and it is obvious this is so from the answers I get. Again, truely not impressed. Thats fine, you do what you want with your money. I'm not judging at all... I'm a palliative care professional, I know all about time and death my friend... i've helped hundreds and hundreds of people cross to the other side. And there is a balance in everything. If you put money in something, you can't put it in something else. I rather bring my family on vacation than burn it in mal investment, but thats just me... we are all different.

Well, I have red all your posts (except 1) and I understand and even agree with some of the information that is conveyed. And yes, nobody knows what the future holds and the prices could drop less than what I predict. I might be wrong, but I see more evidence behind my perspective; the biggest one being the absence of interest from people under 60. But I do agree with the fact that younger guys might have a change in taste when it comes to collector cars as they grow older. It’s a big leap from having interests in a, let say Toyota Supra to a 1920 Chandler, but it is possible. And yes, the pre 42’ cars get fewer and fewer because some are not kept in running order, and none are obviously build, so the supply does get smaller every year. But don’t forget that the market is getting fed from the top also. Fox body Mustangs are now collector cars so are a lot of cars from the 80’s-90’s… Camaro, VW Golf, BMW, Acura, Toyota Supra, Celica... and the list goes on. There are a lot of those cars on the market, and young guys are really into them. Also, don’t forget that younger guys have in general, less interest in cars, are more in debt and have less disposable income than older generations. What I was truly hoping to do here was to debunk what I was thinking and build a case to justify a potential 20k transaction but it really did the opposite for me. In hindsight I think it was foolish of me to think that guys who own and have invested a lot of money in those cars would have a discussion about a possible crash in the market. I appreciate those who were able to cross over their personal interest in the market and try and make a neutral analysis of what I was writing. I honestly hope the market holds and wish none of you lose any money. Above all, I wish that most of these cars will still be around in 20+ years. I am far too conservative to join the party at this stage of the market. I will still be thrilled when I go to museums and car shows and I’ll continue to enjoy them that way. I will obviously stay in the market but I’ll buy something more affordable, I’m probably poorer than I thought if I’m not willing to put 20k on something I love because I’m too worried about its value…

Nah... I edited that part, I don't know, I'll keep wandering around a bit more but won't answer to idiotic responses. Why do you say I wanted a 5000$ car? Where did you read that? I never wrote that and never even wrote that I wanted to buy a car... not here, not now. Do people here really read the posts or they just look at a few words and think they get the gist of it and reply pretty much anything that pop true their head. My first post(S) clearly show that I'm taking in suggestions from everybody... even if people are a) not answeing my question b) trying to sell me a car I never asked for. After people start to tell me I'm complaining... well... yes, this was the goal of the whole thread... I find the pre war cars expensive in respect to the futur value that will most likely decline a lot and I ask people why this is so? That is all... but people like conflict it seems and I can't help but to defend myself. And if you bought a 500$ or 1000$ and got it reliable it does not matter what you want for it, the only thing that matters is what the market is willing to pay for it. It could be 50k, it could be 500$. And I'm ok with that, my concern is that owners hold on to their cars because they don't get their price (and this is not a problem)... the problem is that in the long term, they will have no choice but to sell (because everybody gets old and or sick) and since most owners are in the same age group, this will pretty much all happen in a short time frame and then the market will get saturated, the old buyers will not be buying and the young guys will not be there to buy... and then, prices drop, a lot. By that time, I and other guys like me will have moved on to other cars. My guess is that when that happens, a lot of cars will get sold overseas. Its ok with me if prices are high and stay high... I would buy one in that scenario. But the most likely scenario is that they will be of very little worth in at most 10 years time.

You might be right up to a certain point as in I am willing to believe more young guys own pre 42 cars than I think in other areas, but I am sure they are not numerous enough to make a significant difference on the overall market. And ''not being honest'' was not the way I wanted to phrase that but my english is far from being perfect and I made a mistake in the translation... so I am sorry. I tought it was more on the lines of ''not being realistic'' the way I phrased it but I see my mistake. I came here hoping to have my mind made up to buy a pre war by getting arguments about why these cars will retain a good portion of their value in the long term but instead it seems like it gave me the opposite drive. I think I'll get back in the Air-cooled VW or something like that... Good luck y'all...

Wrong... I wanted a discussion, not unidirectional comments with no substance from ''experts''. Or guys trying to sell me their cars.

Well no, this is not what I think nor is it what I wrote... I simply posted here with the intention of understanding why the prices were so high and be informed about what justifies it by having a discussion about it. I had some good and pertinent replies but they were few, most were an attempt to egocentrically sell me their car or lecture me about why I’m wrong without any arguments to back their comment. I am also encouraged to ‘’live life’’ by spending money without putting any thought into it. So I’m leaving this forum with no answer and a bad impression of the pre war community… its not quite what I imagined it to be. As I have mentioned, I have been to many meets with my previous cars and I have never seen a guy under 65 with a pre 1942 car. I know a guy who knows someone in his 20’s who has a Model T but it was after his grand father passed away and he got it true his estate, I don’t think he still has it. When I had my Hudson Hornet I would meet with guys with 50’s car and at that time I was 33… No one was near my age. The youngest guy was in his late 50’s. I don’t mind being with older people but to pretend that young guys are numerous in being interested in pre war (even pre 70’s) car is not being honest. Of course, there are some... but not nearly enough to keep the prices up in the long run.

I simply stated that I’m not interested in buying and restoring your car. A car that needs work is not quite the same as a complete restoration. But above all things why do you try to slander me like this... This is far from being adequate and mature behavior on your part. Are you 10 years old, seriously? I asked the community if they knew why the prices of pre war cars were so high and your first reply was to try and sell me your car… I’m not impressed.

Why lecture me that way as if I knew nothing? I’m far from being disconnected from reality… you’ve got some nerve man… I’ve owned many antique cars in the last 20 years and I’m far from being ignorant on the subject. I never stated I wanted a ready to run 5000$ car or a 25$ farmer’s barn model A, I know houses are not 35k and I know a lobster dinner isn’t 5$... this is quite insulting. Why some of you guys on the forum have the tendency to write thing in my stead as if I really think those things or as if you know my thoughts or intentions. You also decided that I lived in Montreal and that my expenses were high so I must ‘’recalibrate my sense of value’’… you have no idea about who I am and what my condition is so I’m really curious as to why you give yourself permission to write pretty much anything that goes true your head? Again, I asked a simple question ‘’why are pre war cars so expensive’’ and no one gave me a direct answer. I will simply buy something more recent, its that simple, and it will still be a lot of fun. As I have already stated, I’ve owned air cooled VW’s, a Hudson Hornet, Hemi Dodge, 60’s Ford… and I will continue to own other interesting cars without any doubt. Pre war will simply be put in the back of my mind and slowly fade away if the prices don't come down. I’ve never been on the sidelines and I’ve never complained the world has treated me unfairly and I never will so I don’t quite understand why you are stating this. This is ridiculous.

I actually did not post this thread to seek an immediate solution for not having an (old) car. What I wanted was to understand why older guys refuse to lower their price when their car won't sell and why do they prefer to keep their car and watch them deteriorate. As I said, it is none of my buisness what people want to do with their property but I'm interested in understanding the behavior and I also want to point out the consequences of this behavior. I don't really care about the money. If I knew they would keep their value (or even lose a bit), I would buy one today! The problem is, and this is why I refuse to buy one now, is that I know buyers will be extremely rare in the next 5 - 10 years and the prices will completely collapse. I mean, I love those cars but I'm not in the position where I can buy something 20-30k and see it reduced to barely nothing. Millennials and x's will not be buying those cars in big enough numbers to keep the prices up... and soon they will be the bulk of the potential buyers. But to answer your question, I am looking for anything from that era. I'm passionate about them more than any other year because my view of the world is more closely related to the pre war society than to the present state of the world. The political world of those days, the social context and cohesion. The world before the war was better in my sense (not perfect) but better. I'm french-Canadian but the American model of government and society of those days is what I relate to the most; free market, small government, freedom and prosperity. I also prefer the style of the days... the attention to detail, the smell. So any car between 1900 and 1942 would be just fine. The economic reality of families today is quite different and have nothing to do with the past. Yes luxury items are less expensive be it tv's, computers, cars... but houses, food, education; all the basic goods are more expensive than in the past and when you add them up, there is not a lot left even if you have a high income. You can choose not to buy a new TV but you have no choice to buy when it comes to housing, food and education. Today you have to be very conservative if you want to be able to put money aside for retirement, pay your mortgage and raise kids with enough resources to make them productive members of the society. Most young people are swimming in debt and will be doing so much of their lives, I don't want to follow that path so I'm on a tight budget. As I said... I have enough money to buy most cars but not enough to see its value decline year after year for the next decades. There is no soul searching to be made. I've own a few antique/collector cars in the past 20 years from Air cooled VW's to a 1950's Hudson Hornet to a 60's Ford and a Hemi Dodge. I've enjoyed them all and when I needed to sell them to finance important projets I never had trouble. Presently I need to be more careful with money for many reasons but I can still afford something nice but it must retain most of its value in the years to come, this is the most important prerequisite. I don't have a crystal ball, but I strongly doubt pre war cars will hold most of their value in the coming years. I have no debt except for mortgage and I plan on keeping it this way... And yes, financing a 40k pickup is not the way to go, I agree. I might be wrong but from what I saw online, antique cars were much cheaper before the mid 90's... I agree, unfulfilled dreams are part of life and one as to be in peace with that fact that some might never be realised.