55 - 56 Oil Pumps & Vacuum Pump

[RO]

Similarly, the infamous '56 Custom had the engine overhaul in January-February; rebuilt pump from Aller, new rods and new mains. The mains were the problem; down to copper on two of four and only #5 was with no copper showing. Startup goes to ~45 psi and idle after warmup was at 27-28 psi for awhile, but I noticed in the drive last week up to get the windshield replaced, that while it held good 25-35 psi at 35-45 mph, when at idle it was down to 15-20 psi or less. I supposed the engine is "getting broken in." But now it seems a scraping/whining sound has developed that appears to be from the rear of the engine. It will occur at random, mostly right after startup and in the short intervals of driving, more prominent in drive. The engine was removed from the car for the mains and crankshaft job, but the sound was not noticed for the first 40-50 miles, and now has about 80 miles on the rebuild. I run straight 30W Pennzoil.

[55PackardGuy]

Since talk has moved again to oil pressure, just another note that CarNut.com lists specs for all '55 V8 oil pressure at 35 psi, all '56 oil pressure at 45 psi. Don't know the reason for the 10 lb difference. 15-20 psi would seem excessively low, for any Packard V8, though.

[Guest Randy Berger]

Keith, on the original pump, is there a groove in the pump body that allows oil to travel upwards and lubricate the shaft? If not, how is it lubricated?? If Mr. Allers bushing has a groove that runs almost all the way up, then that supplies lubricant to the shaft.

YFAM, Randy Berger

[Guest Randy Berger]

Don't know about carnut.com, but Packard documentation states oil pressure is 45 psi at 2800 rpm for 1955 and 1956.

YFAM, Randy Berger

[Packard8]

Hi Geoff,

John here (Heather?s former owner)?nice to see you all, I just recently found this forum.

Re low oil pressure, lifter noise etc. I have found some improvement (tho not a fix) by switching to a motor oil that is HEUI diesel rated. Hydraulic-Electronic Unit Injectors are actuated by the engine?s oil supply at extremely high pressures (40,000 PSI in some cases) and the motor oil specified for this application therefore has a much more effective anti-foam additive package than the average motor oil. These oils are specified for the Ford/International Powerstroke and many of the newer Caterpillar diesels.

I use Chevron Delo 400 15-40 because it is readily available at Walmart and Costco, but Shell Rotella-T and Mobil Delvac also have these extra anti-foam properties. You might give it a try, as I?ve found it visibly reduces foaming in the V8?s.

Cheers,

John

[Guest imported_PackardV8]

Steel running against a CAST IRON bearing surface does not require oil grooving. I am not a bearing expert nor engineer however nearly ALL bronze bushing applications that i have ever seen require an oil groove even if it is just judiciously cut with a file. Again, the oil grooving becomes a function of materials compatibilty. If no oil groove exists then the steel shaft will seize in the bushing in short order. There is a multitude of variety available in oil grooves. Streight, single helical, double helical, terminal ended and so-forth depending on application. The question of wheather or not an oil groove (and type) is needed in a bronze bushing application while cast iron does not require the oil groove is beyond my training and background. All i know is that i have seen various wear corrections done with a bronze bushing with an oil groove when the original CI bearing surface did not have one and was told that without the oil groove the shaft would surly seize. Many of the applications ran submersed in oil or had abundant oil splash. Such applications as MC transmission cluster gears, internal generator drive sprocket shafts, cam bushings, automotive transmission tail shaft housing bushings, among MANY others.

[Guest imported_PackardV8]

I have a valve on the input line to the oil filter on the Executive. Valve closed and my readings are:

SLAMS to 40+ psi on cold start at Any ambient including 103 degree hot weather.

10-15 psi AT IDLE with engine temp 215 degrees after a long hard run in 90-103 degree weather.

** 35-40 psi at speeds above 15 mph, any ambient temp, engine at operating temps.

If i OPEN the valve to the oil filter subtract 5 pounds from the above readings except "**", it remains the same. On cold start up the gauge is very slow to react under any and all conditions.

.

[Packard8]

Hi Brian,

Agreed?.HEUI rated motor oil is more of a band aid than a fix, but it may help keep an older motor on the road a few miles longer and prevent further damage. The root of the problem probably lies in the pump design, materials etc.. Re single weight vs. multi-grade, I think your point may have been true a few years ago but I am pretty confident that the modern multi-vis oils are up to the job, or they wouldn?t be specified for the modern high output diesels. Think of the bearing loads imposed by a Cat C-18 running a 22:1 compression ratio and producing 950 HP and 2400 lbs of torque! (and running a million miles or so between overhauls)

The last Packard V8 I built up was a ?56 374 that went into a 56 GH. I went with the thicker pump base plate (no vacuum pump) and the pump-gear tolerances were still within spec. On the advice of a knowledgeable Packard guru, I drilled out the primary oil passage to 9/16ths, chamfered the edges, installed the camplate ?squirter? which improves oil pressure to the lifters, went with Mopar 383 HiPo lifters, keepers, retainers etc.

The motor now has only about 4000 miles on it, but has always has good oil pressure at any temp, no lifter noise etc.

Re overfilling the oil sump, there is the potential of foaming the oil via the crank throws acting like an eggbeater whipping up a meringue pie! It?s been a few years since I had a V8 opened up, but I don?t remember there being a windage tray?..is there one? A deeper sump providing an extra quart or two of oil might also help.

At any rate, there is a lot of good info in this thread. I?d like to think that one day we will be able to order an improved pump and put the matter to rest.

Cheers,

John

[55PackardGuy]

Brian,

As Packard8 mentioned, I wouldn't worry much about overfilling causing additional foaming problems unless it's overfilled to the point of being "whipped" by the crank. I have a feeling that the reason over-filling helps is what has been referred to as "dispersal" of the air in the oil. More oil, more dispersal. Makes sense to me anyway, but what do I know? I DO know that I posted elsewhere on an Oil Pump Thread that I suspected anti-foaming oil may be a "fix" for the Packard lifter noise problem. At least Mercedes Benz thinks it is for their cars! I have read where some of their newer engines call for anti-foaming oil (I don't know if it's because of lifter noise, or what). So, they're OK with having owners use a different oil rather than trying to fix the cause of the foaming in the first place. So, I don't think it's really a "copout" to treat the Packard symptom with oil rather than chasing the cause. BTW, as I recall the vacuum windshield wipers were STILL pretty pathetic in our '55s, even with the booster pump. It didn't seem to be worth going to all the trouble of putting a booster on the system when every time you hit the gas hard the wipers stopped anyway. But, again, what do I know??

[WCraigH]

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Quote:</div><div class="ubbcode-body">(snip) BTW, as I recall the vacuum windshield wipers were STILL pretty pathetic in our '55s, even with the booster pump. It didn't seem to be worth going to all the trouble of putting a booster on the system when every time you hit the gas hard the wipers stopped anyway...</div></div>

I agree. I looked into getting the vacuum wiper assy O'hauled on my 55 Pat, but the cost was about what the electric conversion cost. Hey, just the other day I got caught in a short rain storm here in the NV desert and was pleased that my wipers worked. That was their first time in a couple of years. <img src="http://www.aaca.org/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/grin.gif" alt="" />

[Packard8]

Hey Craig & Guy?.

I?ve always considered piggy-backing a vacuum booster to an oil pump buried in the sump to be one of the prime candidates for the Rube Goldberg Design Award for Automotive Silliness.

I suspect that even right out of the showroom, the Packard wipers would crap out during a long uphill climb, (or worse yet while passing a big semi during a rainy night on a two lane road!). As I recall Studebaker went to electric wipers as standard equipment in ?50 or ?51, so it was hardly ?unproven technology? by ?55 & ?56, and the electric wiper motors were already sitting there in the SP Corporate parts bin.

[Guest JT]

Well even the 1940 Packards (jr cars only) had electric wipers so it wasn't for "unproven technology". The 40 sr cars used vacuum wipers run off the fuel pump.

Wonder why some of the Packards hung on to using vacuum wipers for so long?

[Packard8]

Hi Brian,

Yes, I consider the piggy-back affair Rube Goldberg, regardless of whether Packard, Buick or Rolls Royce employed it. Placing a service item like a vacuum booster inside the crankcase just doesn?t make sense to me (too many unnecessary hours of labor required to R&R, irregardless of the oiling issues). If they were committed to vacuum wipers, why not use the double action fuel pump approach of prior years?.....much easier to service.

I guess I?m showing my age, but I drove many vacuum wiper cars when they were not ?collector cars? and I guarantee I never had one that worked well under acceleration. When passing in the rain on two lane roads it was common practice to let off on the gas pedal for a second just to see where you were going!

I applaud your commitment to originality, but to me safety items like brakes, seatbelts and wipers are the exception for anything but a museum piece. BTW, I?ve never had a wiper motor failure on an electric equipped Stude, even tho the original motors are pushing 50 years of service.

Cheers,

John

[Packard8]

Hi again Brian,

I agree that it takes more than the absence of the vacuum booster to bring the V8?s up to snuff in the oiling dept. The modified cam plate, lower pump plate bushings, upper shaft bushings, enlarged primary passages, oil baffles around the valve springs and perhaps a few other tweaks should do the job. My point was that adding a vacuum booster located in the bowels of the motor to supplement an already obsolete wiper system seems goofy (IMHO).

Incidentally, the 374 motor I mentioned will be going back ?home? in a ?56 Carib I?m working on (the ?56 GH was too rusty to repair and the Carib has a very tired original motor). I also intend to keep the vacuum wiper system for originality, as I won?t drive the car in bad weather if at all possible. I do plan on installing the dual M/C system Craig details on his website, as the judges don?t award many originality points for a crunched front end!.....lol.

Cheers,

John

[55PackardGuy]

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Quote:</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Buick had a similar arrangement in their engine, but with no apparent adverse effects</div></div>

Brian,

Just a "left field" what-if question:

The early Oldsmobile V8s with hydraulic lifters were sometimes referred to as the "racket V8" because of lifter noise. Did they possibly have the oil/vacuum pump arrangement? Early hydraulic valve trains had other problems that caused noise, but I just wonder if part of the Olds problem was also related to a vacuum pump?

Just a thought...

[Guest imported_PackardV8]

There is more to the Vac wiper set up than just a pump and manifold vacuum. Since it is a SHARED vacuum system between the engine and an auxillary pump there also exists variuos valves for overriding and shuttle. There is a valve down low on the engine as well as a shuttle on the firewall, the control inside the car so on and so-forth. These items are rather cheaply made which is also the case on the AMC products as late as 71. The valves, controls etc are subject to short life, dirt, ice and wear. Note that since they operating in a vacuum that icing can occur with ambience as high as 50 degrees F just like in a carburetor AND are subject to ambient moisture. My analysis of the 2wo vac pumps i have one with 34K miles and the other with 120K miles is that they are or cheap, flimsy design. the better route to go would be to mount a vac pump from a diesel engine that runs off of the fan belt like many modern diesel cars and light trucks do. I have such a pump i use for evacuating AC systems and IT WORKS just fine. OR someother independent vacuum source to allow for elimination of the various valves and so-forth. The vacuum wipers even on the 60's and early 70's cars i've had and seen are all nearly identicle. They are a carry over from the very early preway years when having wipers was an uptown accessory and electrical systems were marginal and the auto's never bothered to improve the system.

Retaining the factory application as it were is just fine for those that are bent on originality. But, for my demands the 'shared' vacuum system is simply not adequate due to its maintenance and poor quality details. Had the auto's chosen to make better valves and other controls i'm sure the vac system would be very desireable.

[Guest imported_PackardV8]

No sarcasim intended BUT, i suppose even the lifter clatter could be argued as an originality feature of the car.

[Guest imported_PackardV8]

OH!!!!! Did someone mention valve spring baffles ???? You don't want to get me started on that one. There is no damned way i would use those worthless attempts at curing oil consumption or anything else. I even tried to eBay one of the sets i have. If u want to wear out valve guides in short order just install the valve spring baffles. I learned it the hard way.

[Guest]

Greetings, All,

I have repaired/rebuild several of these pumps now and speak from experience, not theory. We have one incontrovertable fact - the Packard V8 oil pump drive shaft wears the bore of the pump body. The comparison between the Chevy oil pump and the Packard leaves out one major difference. The Packard intermediate drive shaft is much longer than the Chevy. This additional length gives it more leverage force against the pump drive shaft. Additionally, the Packard sleeve connecting the intermediate shaft to the pump shaft doesn't fit tightly, thus allowing wobble. This in my opinion is what wears the pump shaft bore.

The bronze bushing we have been discussing is an aftermarket part inserted after the housing is bored out.

thnx, jv.

[Guest imported_PackardV8]

56J wrote:

"The Packard intermediate drive shaft is much longer than the Chevy. This additional length gives it more leverage force against the pump drive shaft. Additionally, the Packard sleeve connecting the intermediate shaft to the pump shaft doesn't fit tightly, thus allowing wobble"

Yes, the Packard intermediate shaft IS much longer than the SBC I'shaft. But, the flex joint is pinned at the blade and slot union and the sleeve is pinned to the lower shaft too to hold it in place. On 3hree different pumps i have the sleeve fits TIGHTLY on the lower shaft and has clearence for the I'shaft. If there was no clearence for the I'shaft then there would be no flexing at that point. This flexible union that exists in BOTh the SBC and the Packard pump is there to allow for any SLIGHT misallignment of the pump to the engine in both the SBC and Packard engines. NOTE that the SBC pump i have has NO pin at the flex joint and only a nylon sleeve where-as the Packard pump is pinned with a steel sleeve.

Question:

SO, if I am in agreement that the premature wear problem is due to the excessive length of the I'shaft THEN simply installing a bushing (at the top) to take up the wear (or "putting pump back to factory spec") will not correct the malody that causes the problem and the premature wear will occur again????

[Guest imported_PackardV8]

sbc on left. Packard on right. NOTE the COMPLETE oiling cavity provided on the sbc pump encircling the input shaft bore. NONE on the Packard pump. There is nothing precision about this oil cavity. It can easily be added to the Packard pump using a die grinder (Dremmel).

[Guest imported_PackardV8]

Brian, maybe u could post a request to the Buick or Cad site for someone to be so kind as to provide us some pics and details. I don't have much luck asking for things. I'm also looking at the possibility of grafting the SBC lower plate to the Packard pump to utilize the sbc pressure relief valve and get it submerged. Of course this wont work with a PI style pump or if the vac pump is retained.

Someone mentioned in a previous post several days ago about getting with a machinist and supplier of gears. NOTE that if anyone can find SIMILAR gears they need NOT have the key way nor does the shaft need a key way in it. The gear can be easily affixed to the shaft using a British doweling method and only requires a 3/8 piece of steel FLAT AND SMOOTH on each side with a hole drilled in it for a drill guide and a hand drill with a 1/8 bit and maybe 2wo small C-clamps. IT IS JUST AS GOOD as the key. It will NOT work on the PI style modification tho.

[RO]

NOTE OF CAUTION!

I stopped my '55 Clipper Super on a hill yesterday (headed up) and ket the car idle for a about 2-3 minutes but it started clicking and clacking, so I pulled it on into the drive and shut it down. Started it back up and the clicking soon went away. Checked the oil level and it was down about 1/2 quart. Refilled to 1/2 quart over and hope no more problems. But it would seem we must be very careful given the reputation of the packard oil pumps, that perhaps idling on a steep hill with less than a full crankcase of oil is not a thing to do.

[Guest imported_PackardV8]

The SBC lower thrust plate does not appear to be big enuf by itself to adapt easily to the Packard pump. If some other lower plate containing a pressure relief valve will adapt easily then we will solve the parts availability problem, and get the valve BELOW the oil level thus solving any possibility of air entering the pump from that point.

I am conviced that NO one single modification to this pump will produce the long term "do it once and do it right" results we are looking for.