Packard quality

[Guest]

Will you guys just LISTEN to yourselves...? THINK...who do you sound like, in your dislike of conflicting information....?

You dont want to hear conflicting views...you are offended by the "posting" of technical/historical issues.....'53, who first challenging my statement about how poor Packard's performance was....then suddenly agreeing when I finally found the technical data....then coming up with the excuse that, "well...Cad. had lower gear ratios "(nonsence)....Beger telling us about the Ultramatic "you wouldnt feel it" (shifting or "locking up"....horse-feathers. !..well.I take that back...IF the "direct drive" clutch had failed...yes...!

Others tell us that '50's Packard had good quality, a '52 Mayfair was faster than an Olds or Cad of the same year, and how tough Packard bodies were....

Why does this attitude of not wanting to hear reality sound familiar..?

THINK...where have we heard these kinds of attitudes before....Hmmm...no WONDER they dont want to hear it....say..you dont suppose some of these guys are the walking ghosts of post-war Packard management....?

Pete Hartmann

[Guest]

Peter: First of all I never challenged your statement about the 53 Caddies being faster than Packard's like my 53. I MEARLY ASKED YOU TO FURNISH SOME PROOF TO BACK UP THE STATEMENT YOU MADE. I already had you beat to punch, as I had the figures to already proof that the Caddy was faster. Now in one way I was correct about the 53 Caddy gear ratio and in another way I was incorrect. The series 62 and 60s caddies ran a 3:06 to 1 ratio and the 75 series ran the 3;77 to 1 ratio. Now the average caddie had a higher ratio than the Packards, but they still had 30 horspepower more. Now as far as gear ratios offered by Caddie in 1941 there where three ratios, on the 60S, 61, 62,63 series the 3:77 to 1 ratio as standard and the 3:36 to 1 ratio as an option. On the 67 and 75 series the 4:27 to 1 ratio was standard with the 3:77 to 1 ratio as being optional. In 1941 most caddies came equiped with standard 15 inch wheels the 67 and 75 series came with 16 in wheels. Peter anytime you want correct information about Caddies just ask me. Since you seem to know so much about Caddies what different model carbs did the 53 Caddy come equiped with.

[Guest]

I already told you, PACK 53...I give up..I confess..!

You guys are right and I am wrong..those '50's Packards were the greatest...!

We can read in these various "threads" how much you guys know...how marvelous those 50's Packards were.......why....we have a guy with a '52 Mayfair who "knew" it was a faster car than the Olds and the Cad. of that era...we have guys who KNOW Packard quality was as good as other cars of that era...we have guys who "KNOW" that U.S. Highway 6 went to Santa Monica pier..we have guys who "KNOW" that poured babbit connecting rod bearings are as good or better than the "precision steel backed insert" concept....we have guys who "know" that those '50's era Packard bodies were so much tougher than other cars of that era...we have guys who "KNOW" a '48 Buick Super will go over 100 mph..and a '48 Roadmaster will go over 120......we have guys who "know" the Ultramatic is so smooth and so great you can't "feel" that "thud" when the direct drive clutch locks up (actually..I am being unfair to these guys..of course they are clue-less as to how the Ultramatic works when it IS working...has NO SPEEDS...so in that respect...they are correct...)..We have guys who "know" the Russian ZIS was made from "the Packard dies that Roosevelt gave to them".....that the 1939 Packard "160" had air conditioning.....

I tell you..I have learned so much in here from you guys (oh..by the way...the Caddy "high gear" option was not 3.06...in place of the 3.23...it was 3:08)

There is no point in trying to exchange info. with you hard-heads. You "know" the truth...you FOUND OUT that it was MY fault that Packard failed...it was ME who ran around to all those Packard dealers, chasing away all those eager Packard buyers, who otherwise, would have ordered so many new Packards...telling them filthy lies that Packard was on a suicide "binge" with ever crummier cars that drove away its customers....SHAME ON ME !

Pete Hartmann

[6219_Rules]

I completely agree with you, Brian. It is a good option. A dog trainer once told me, if you do not like the way a dog behaves, ignore it. Literally turn your back and walk away because they cannot stand to be ignored. Remember, most dogs (and bad pennys?) have the social level of a 5 year old. Given that, they will either change their behaviour or leave.

Now I would not presume to say that is true for anyone on this forum, I am simply pointing out that in many cases it works. However I should also point out that 'time out' does not work with incorrigables. As any behaviouralist will tell you, there has to be a social boundary that is in place to make the punishment work. If the subject doesn't care, it won't be effective.

back to cars....

I think Peter is making some extremely valid points here. Just because the bar slipped on quality in the 1950s does not mean that the cars were not very good cars. They just were less of what their 1930s predecessors were. I feel the same way about my 1977 Cadillac. It is a wonderful car but is not what its 1950 predecessor was. I would honestly prefer to own a 1956 or 60 than the 77. But that in no way detracts from the value of the car itself. We could be having the same conversation about the change in Caddys from 1960 through 1980. What is interesting is that there were some major technological improvements and developments in the 1950s Packards, and the cars themselves are clearly superior to the run of the mill luxury sedan of the day. I love Cadillacs and have never ridden in a Packard, but I hope to one day and who knows, I may switch ... not that I can afford it but that has never stopped me. <img src="http://www.aaca.org/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" />

This has been a very interesting thread. I read the Packard forum because you guys DO know what you are talking about. Keep up the good work, and thanks for letting me sit in.

[Guest]

Randall...please don't think I am picking on you...you too...BH..I am sure you are great guys...but you ARE being only too human in trying to support your "belief system", and insulate yourself from the real world where it disagrees with what you so badly want to believe...

But..c'mon..Randall...you "know" how great those '50's Packards are...and..in a paragraph later...you admit you've never even RIDDEN in one...?

B.H...c'mon..man..of COURSE Packard couldn't make any money on small unit production.....TRUE....that is why it is good to sell cars ! When you cant sell cars...you dont make any money ! Can you sell good cars that meet the customers expectations.....? Well...ask Cadillac !

Can we deny that Damiler Benz, Toyota Mitsibushi, Bayershe Moteren Werke (BMW)...etc...etc...all came out of the war in a LOT worse shape than Packard, but correctly recognized...you CAN make money off of relatively small lots of production....IF you can sell em..and THAT means people have to LIKE em......What was LEFT of their management and work force, had a DETERMINATION to put out a high quality product. Over-priced..yes...lots of procurement problems. YES...Not able to keep up with the west's mass production economies of product..? Of course...all true....But the cars were well built. Word-of-mouth spread. People heard about it "from the man who owned one". Repeat business. That's the way they made money ! That's the way Packard made money in its glory years.

Sorry..guys..I know..I know...isnt nice to bother you guys you really ought to stop reading my "posts"...not fair to upset you with reality.

Pete Hartmann

[Guest]

It's "Bayerische Motoren Werke" doofus!

[Steve Brown]

I was on the Interstate yesterday afternoon north of Dallas just putting along at about 55. Suddenly a big blue car zooms up behind me and passes in the inside lane. It was a beautiful 54 Pat with a whole crowd of 30 somethings inside. They had to be doing 65. I sped up and I honked and waved and they all waved back grinning ear to ear. Talk about quality.

[Constellation]

Peter,

You brought up a valid point about the management at Packard dumping the Company's heritage after the War. George Christopher hated the Senior Packard Line because they didn't sell in large Numbers. Unfortunately this carried over to the Ferry years. Hugh Ferry trimmed the Senior Line (127" wheelbase) to a lone 4 door sedan. All kinds of numbers crunching went into the 24th series as well to cut costs to compete in the Medium Price Market.

You alluded in another Post about how Packard delivered a good car that was more powerfull than a Caddy in 1941. Thats true. You have to remember something about Packard management. That very car, the 1941 Packard was the outcome and had been planned when Max Gilman was president at Packard. Gilman along with and later under George Christopher were responsible for the Plant Modernization that took place in the late 1930's and into 1940.

However, Max Gilman always said that for Packard to survive it would have to stay modern. It didn't after World War II.

There are no secrets in Detroit. It was no Secret that Caddy and Olds were developing an Overhead Valve V-8. Both of these Makes being direct Competitors of the Packard Line. Packard chose instead to re-tool the old 282 into the 288 and 327 eight. A bad mistake from a company that was renown for building V type engines. Maybe if Packard had stayed modern in 1948 with a good overhead valve V-8 they could have put a Dent in the competition. Maybe if the styling of the the Golden Anniversary 23rd Series had been like the 24th with the V-8 they could have ended Caddy's hope of dominating the Luxury Field too. It would have been a Modern Car at the time.

Bob

[6219_Rules]

Maea culpa!!! Would anyone like to give me a ride so I can hold an opinion too?

[Guest]

Hi, Randall !

You are relatively new to these chat-rooms, so you are apparently unaware of a "standing offer" I have to anyone who finds themselves in northern Arizona...look me up ! I'll buy lunch, and you'll get a ride in a late '30's Packard Twelve that never STOPPED being a working car ! I am easy to find - am in both Packard clubs and of course the CCCA directory.

I am VERY sorry I had to sell my '38 Cad. Sixteen Imperial limo (the former Mae West car) - it was SUPER mint. You would have seen that by the late 1930's, Cadillac was coming closer to equalling Packard in super silent, powerful cars. Its all-steel body was much more advanced than the big Packards (which were still of "built up" or "composite" construction, meaning they nailed sheet metal over wooden frames to make bodies ! The later Cad. V-16 was a flat-head, VERY short stroke, and thus silky smooth, smoother than the Packard Twelve (but much less raw guts- the Packard Twelve will easily do what traditional Packards were famous for..."blow the doors" off the Cady....AND.....seriously out-corner it too...

I am also sorry I have long since sold my post-war Packards and Cadillacs, so I cant help you learn about direct comparisons.

Wish I still had one of my '53 Packard Patricans around for you to compare with the super mint '53 Cad. 60 Special Fleetwood I had (the former Walter Brenan car). That car had an interesting history - purchased in the north-west in early '53...used for a couple thousand miles...then, put away in a climate controlled garage, to be un-covered, sold to a collector in Portland, then and sold to me. Talk about "mint mint mint". Well..not QUITE....yeah..I know...I am SUPPOSED to be a purist, BUT...it can get damn hot and muggy in Los Angeles, and Brenan did not order "factory air" ('53, to my recollection, was the first post-war model year you could again order "factory air)..... so a trip to a junk-yard got me a '55 air-conditioning system (trunk mounted evaporator and the dash control unit, just like '53)..only give-a-way, is...IF you were a Caddy expert, you'd spot the magnetic compressor clutch the '54 and '55 had (the '53 was like the pre-war "factory air"..you had to disconnect the belt in the winter and/or to keep the compressor from running all the time).

Had to sell off a bunch of nice cars when I retired, and moved out here to the high country of northern Arizona. Other interests, and relatively limited space.

Heck..we can go get some "classic chicken"...and wash it down with "classic coke"....!

Pete Hartmann

" we will find a way....or MAKE one......" ( a certain general named Hannibal......

[6219_Rules]

I certainly would like that and may take you up on it. I have ridden in a 48 Cadillac and a 56, that is about the size of that. Maybe I can get some of the guys in the CLC to give me rides after the local meetings. <img src="http://www.aaca.org/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" /> I saw a 1953 Packard Carribean at a local show about a month ago, and was certainly impressed by it as it passed on the way out. A beautiful sound.

The old 47 is still running beautifully and I certainly do not mind it in hot weather...there are plenty of windows to open. So I guess I need to see what the local Packard group is doing to get a better perspective.