66 Toro fuel delivery problem

[Guest]

Confounded....I put a rebuilt rochester QJet on the car and it ran fine..then the fuel pump went out..replaced and can't get rid of vapor lock when the 4bbls open. I put a different fuel pump on and no change...I put the old carb back on and no change...I have now dropped the gas tank and am having it boiled out and am replacing the rubber fuel lines..does anyone know if this car is supposed to have the return line do a vertical loop up through the trunk floor and back down again? My car does not have this and the shop manual shows this configuration..Also, does anyone know what the disk looking part that screws to the top of the fuel pump is? None of my parts guys knows what it is or what it does and I have tried with and without this part and no change to the vapor lock problem.<P>thanks...

[Guest]

This is not vapor lock that you are describing, sounds more like you need to fine tune the spring pressure keeping the secondary air plate closed. There is an adjustment on the pivot shaft that can be adjusted with a screwdriver, sounds like the secondary throttle air plate is opening to soon.

[rocketraider]

The return line doesn't loop up thru the trunk floor- that line is the tank vent system and if it's not functioning properly can cause fuel starvation. The disc you're describing is a factory vapor lock fix- in Olds-speak, it is a fuel pulsator dome and its purpose is to keep the fuel pump fully charged with gasoline so it doesn't try to pump air. Same thing a return-to-tank line is supposed to do, but Toro underhood temperatures were so high the fuel would boil in the lines. <P>What was the original reason to replace the carb? Did the original one do this too, or just start after installing the RB? I think you have fuel pressure/flow or float level problems. If the secondary airflaps open too quick it will cause a hard bog- or is that what you're trying to describe as vaporlock?

[Guest]

Thanks for your response(s)...the original carb had internal metal fatigue so I put a rebuilt rochseter on it and it ran fine until I replaced the fuel pump. The last problem I have is when the 4bbls open the motor stops completely and it is instaneous, not a bogging situation. I have replaced the fuel lines and had the tank boiled out and will try to get it runnin today. The "fuel dome" that you described must have replaced the vent lines in the trunk...so I assume if I have the dome on the pump I don't need the vent line looping. The vent lines currently come up about 8 inches from the vent attachments on the tank and come out with the filler neck..<P>thanks..hope this works.

[rocketraider]

Next question- does the vent line have a small square plastic gizmo with an open tube on it at the fuel filler? If it does, the fuel tank has been replaced at some time or other with a 68-70 tank, but this change won't affect driveability of the car.<P>There are several things on a QuadraJet that can cause problems like this- the secondary air flaps, secondary lockout lever (which is tied into the choke and fast idle linkages, so if they're off adjustment, the secondaries won't even open), low float level, secondary metering rod hanger stuck or rods have come off it, fuel filter installed backwards (newer design has a rollover check valve built into it, and if it's installed backwards it won't allow enough fuel to pass to supply hard acceleration- should be installed with the hole at the fuel line end of the inlet fitting), and 66 used a weird float needle and seat that used to cause all kinds of problems, notably flooding and resulting fires. Sometimes they're updated, sometimes not. <P>A QuadraJet is a fine carburetor adjusted and working right but can be a real pain if not. If all else fails, for the difference in money and aggravation, I'd get a Holley or Edelbrock brand new replacement QuadraJet. It'll have the side fuel inlet (correct for your 66) and should bolt on with a minimum of fine-tuning required. Most of the applications are Chevy and generic, but get one for big-block and it should feed your Toro-saurus adequately.

[Guest]

it should feed your Toro-saurus adequately. <P><BR>That was very funny....by the way, do you do stand up comedy..? THanks for the info...re: the square gizmo on the vent...no, my car has two short hoses from the rear of the tank up along side the filler neck and both are plugged, with small center vent holes.<P>Thanks,<BR>John

[rocketraider]

No, John, stand up comedy isn't my strong suit- I'm told my wit is way too dry for such! I have referred to Toronados as Toro-saurus since I got my 1969 W34 way back in 1986. They kinda have that thunder lizard look to them, do you agree?<P>I don't think the tank vent system is your problem, since you have vent lines in place and they appear to be open to atmospheric pressure. Two carbs doing the same thing leads me to believe: fuel pump not pumping to capacity, or fuel filter plugged or installed backwards. Another thing that _could_ affect this is distributor mechanical advance weights sticking or advance mechanism completely inoperative.<BR> <BR>And on a 1966 Toronado- the switch-pitch torque converter blades could be stuck in the wrong angle- check the downshift/pitch switch located at the rear of the engine and make sure all wires are plugged up good and if necessary, have it checked with a test light. If it does this when you floor the pedal, the switch could be bad, blades stick in wrong angle, and the sudden lugging load on the engine could be enough to stall it.<P>Good luck. Old front-drivers can be a joy or a pain, depending on what mood the lizard is in...

[Guest]

Hey there rocketraider....sounds like you have a hot 69 toro..what is the hp rating on that motor..is it a 455? Well, the latest on mine is not good. I took the gas tank out and had it boiled out...replaced all the rubber gas lines and now it won't run at all except for the gas I pour down the carb to prime it. I have clear lines to the first connection to the fuel pump..(from the gas tank forward)..if i disconnect the fuel line from the carb and crank it....no fuel. I can't figure out why the pump won't pump to the carb. This is the third pump, all of the same manufacturer that i have put on...the first one I thought was defective, the second one I torqued the top of it putting the pressure regulator on and this is the third one. I am going to locate an AC Delco pump as a last resort. I did see one advertised in Kanter auto parts but they want $105 for it....is there a good reason for the price diff from the ones I am buying...? ($35.00)<P>thanks for your assistance.

[rocketraider]

Yes, it has a 455, advertised at 400 horsepower and over 500 lb/ft torque. It's a blast to take it out on weekends and blow a teenager's mind by lighting off the front tires- when the smoke clears, they stand there with their jaws on the pavement. They can't believe the old guy with the old car just did that, and with the front wheels! Then I will sometimes offer to show the hotrod Honda crowd how a FWD burnout is properly done...<P>Back to the thread. What brand fuel pumps are you using? I've had good luck with Airtex and Carter aftermarkets, and an AC-Delco jobber should be able to get you an OEM fuel pump for a lot less than the c-note Kanter is asking. I buy from Kanter when I can't find it anywhere else, because it seems they are more expensive just because it's for something old.<P>Even though your fuel lines backblow clean, check the metal lines closely for crimping. They run outside the RH frame rail (what a brilliant place to put them!) and are kinda vulnerable. A new fuel pump should be able to suck fuel from the tank in a few seconds and prime itself and the carb if there's no restriction in the fuel supply lines.<P>But then, I'm having much the same problem as yours with a 1964 Starfire- new rubber lines, new fuel pump and filter, lines backblown clean, and I cannot get any fuel to that rotten Rochester 4GC. I hate the thought of pulling that carb down again, but to get the car running, guess I'll have to.

[Guest]

I just decided, prior to reading your last post, to replace the metal fuel lines, as they are the only part of the fuel system that hasn't been replaced. Sounds like we are having the same problems with starfire and toro...strange. I have switched carbs in all this mess and still have the problem.<P>I am trying to replace the metal lines today....locating the correct lengths is not a quick job.<P>Keep me posted on the progress on the starfire...cool car..and I love burning rubber in the toro..the best show in town.

[Guest Moepar]

Good idea replacing fuel lines as metal lines can also be holed. Also check your fuel cap as if it's not properly vented, will not allow air into tank as engine consumes fuel, therefore creating a vacuum. (don't let sign on name fool you- I have '76 Olds too). You may also have a vacuum leak (either in carb or elsewhere). Do this simple test to see-take air cleaner off. Start car, put your hand over carb intake(blocking any air going in). If the car does anything OTHER then die (like idle smooths out), you have a vacuum leak.<BR>IF you put on another carb KEEP your orginal, do not trade in on another as there is usually a 75% failure rate from most parts stores (my husband restores carbs for a living). If you go that route, Do NOt get a Holley like one person suggested, get only the Edelbrock performer as it is a far superior design for a daily driver. Holley only good for going in a straight line fast, forget about it in corners or for daily dependable use. Have to adjust every time wheater changes a little.<BR>I hope all the suggestions your getting helps you out.

[Guest]

THanks for the carb info...it seems like most parts that are available now are not very good quality...what do you consider a good source of GM parts?<P>Thanks,

[rocketraider]

Agreed on 4150/4160 series Holley, Moepar- and the Edelbrock Performer AFB is a better street carb. Trouble here is neither will fit a 1st series Toronado due to the super low intake profile and low hood line. But Holley and Edelbrock both make new QuadraJets now, and everything I've heard on them has been positive. <P>Last summer, I was driving my Toronado home from the Olds Club Southeast Zone show in Nashville TN when I got hung up in construction traffic east of Asheville on I40. Two miles in 45 minutes was just a bit too slow for me so I swung off at the Nebo/Lake James exit and crossed over to US70. Sure, all those little towns kept me down to about 45 mph, but I was moving (which I40 was not) and it was some beautiful country thru there. At age 45, I've realised that slowing down and taking in the scenery can be good for you. And it masde me appreciate what people heading west went thru before I40 was built.<P>John, with the knowledge and experience on these boards, we'll figure out your problem! you might want to try the <A HREF="http://www.442.com" TARGET=_blank>www.442.com</A> tech board too. Even though they're geared more toward Cutlass/442, there's unreal knowledge on there.<P>Glenn Williamson<BR>the Rocketraider

[Guest]

Well I hate to say it but the Toro "whupped me" and I had it towed to the shop today...the only thing left to replace in the fuel delivery system were the metal lines and I had to order those at custom lenghts and finally gave up. The fuel pumps have been Carter and I tried the replacement Edelbrock and indeed found out about the low profile intake and breather...the current carb is a rebuilt Rochester QJ, and it is the second one as the first one did an imitation of a fountain after a 50 minute drive down I95 from Ft. Lauderdale...I was very fortunate it didn't turn into a torch. I will post what the mechanic finds as soon as I find out...He just restored a 64 Starfire so I have hi hopes on his skill level..<P>thanks for all your help...by the way, I drove the Toro from San Francisco to Miami and it didn't have one problem the whole way and it has 280,000 miles on it...although at the time of the trip it motor had 100k since the last rebuild and the transmission only had about 25k miles on it since it's rebuild.<P>Thanks again.<BR>John

[rocketraider]

John- here is salvation. Contact Greg Kalkhoff, Toro website administrator, at Sparkman@wi.rr.com. The man understands Toronado and most importantly, QuadraJets. Offers Q-Jet rebuild service too. Link back to the OCA site, go to Local Chapters, then find the link to the Toronado group. From there you can link to Sparky's own website and see examples of what he can do turning a QuadraJunk into a properly functioning QuadraJet.