WCraigH Posted August 18, 2001 Share Posted August 18, 2001 All: PackardV8 (Keith) sent me the following JPGs of the modifications he has made to the deficient oil pump. I ftp'd them to my website for public access and will include Keith's brief comments about the JPG shows. <BR>"plate i modified with bushing installed" Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
WCraigH Posted August 18, 2001 Author Share Posted August 18, 2001 "the entire assemble installed as it will run." Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
WCraigH Posted August 18, 2001 Author Share Posted August 18, 2001 "shows the upper end of the shaft setting lower into the pump due to the gear being pushed up further on the shaft so that it will pilot onto the added lower bushing." Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
WCraigH Posted August 18, 2001 Author Share Posted August 18, 2001 "here is a pic of the later plugged pump on the left and the early open port pump on the rite.<P>NOTICE the difference in the hole locations relative to the outer perimiter of the flange.<P>I had to file the holes in pump on the left (later plugged pump) to make the pump fit my executive.<P> Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
WCraigH Posted August 18, 2001 Author Share Posted August 18, 2001 "here is pic of the modified PR valve for open port pumps that has been<BR>retro-plugged" Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Posted August 20, 2001 Share Posted August 20, 2001 further mysteries unfold:<P>Due to various conditions of wear patterns, among other things, i 've became suspicious that there mite be an alignment problem between the distributor bore and the pilot for the oil pump in the main bearing cap. I now have the pump just a few hours away from installation so i slipped under the car with various shafts and pins and so-forth to slide up thru the bearling cap and against the bottom of the distributor.<P>I have determined that the pilot in the main bearing cap is AT LEAST 1/16 inch out of concentricity with the bore for the distributor. My alignment shafts r somewhat crude but nonetheless demonstrate beyond any doubt that there IS an alignment problem.<P>This explains the wallowing of the pump body at the shaft bearing in the pump. I was expecting .010 - .030 runnout but 1/16 is excessive. In fact, it mite be more like 1/10 inch out of C.<P>At this point i am contemplating using the main cap from the parts car but have not checked the parts car for alignment yet. I dont like swapping main caps from engine to engine but it mite be my best solution. I dont know. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
WCraigH Posted August 20, 2001 Author Share Posted August 20, 2001 Keith: Under NO circumstances should you swap main caps from engine to engine! The mains are align bored/honed with the block and are NOT interchangeable without another align bore... something which requires full disassembly & a qualified automotive machine shop. But you already knew that, didn't you? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Posted August 20, 2001 Share Posted August 20, 2001 Craig: i dont like the idea of changing the cap either but i know of no other way to get the pump into better alignment with the dist. I built a chevy V8 several years ago using scounged main caps all the way thru. The job requires scraping the bearings inot compliance, something that should be done anyway even when the caps r mated with line boring. It ran just fine and at high speeds.<P>U need to talk to your engine builder and have him check the pump to distributor alignment on your panther engine. Remeber, the pump u found in the back of car was probably the original pump and it was an early pump. My guess is that by the time Packard went to the plugged pump they mite have realized the alignment problemand corrected it in the cap. That would have been late 56 production. But, i have yet to check my parts car to see how well it lines up. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
WCraigH Posted August 20, 2001 Author Share Posted August 20, 2001 Keith: re: oil pump alignment. Couldn't you bore, sleeve & redrill the holes in the oil pump OR bore bigger holes and go to the next bolt size up on the main cap oil pump mount bosses? Swapping main caps scares me BIG TIME. In any case, I will talk to my engine builder. BTW, all engine work was done, waiting to be picked up, but I guess now it's not. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Posted August 20, 2001 Share Posted August 20, 2001 To re-align the pump shaft with the distributor might require sutting the pilot off of the pump. Then, file the mounting holes (if needed) to bring the shafts into compiance with a dia indicator. I will remove the distributor tonite and take some more accurate alignment readings to determine if i can get away with this method. One problem is that the crank comes very cloae to the pump body...within about an 1/8 inch so clearence at that point could be come a factor. I also want to check the alignment on the parts car but that will have to wait for a few days yet. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Posted August 20, 2001 Share Posted August 20, 2001 sutting = Cutting. compiance = compLiance.<BR>dia indicator = diaL indicator. I think this key board is screwed up or something. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
WCraigH Posted August 20, 2001 Author Share Posted August 20, 2001 Keith: click on the little "edit" icon above your post and you can (re)edit the text. Cool feature of this chat room. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Posted August 20, 2001 Share Posted August 20, 2001 thanks Craig. But when i try to edit the typos it tells me that i have to be a member or register or be baptized or something to perform the edit function. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Posted August 21, 2001 Share Posted August 21, 2001 i double checked the pump to distributor alignment last nite with better accuracy. As it turns out the eccentricity of the 2 units is about .030 inch give or take .010. This is what i guess to be the hi end limits so i'll go ahead and run with it. Later on i'll check the parts car with the same tools to see how it fairs. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
WCraigH Posted August 21, 2001 Author Share Posted August 21, 2001 Keith: I forwarded your concerns to my engine shop. He's going to check out the concentricity of the distributor drive vs oil pump drive and let me know. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Randy Berger Posted August 23, 2001 Share Posted August 23, 2001 Keith, since I can't check mine and the parts manual doesn't list the dimensions of the plug in the late pump, can you tell me the thread size and length of threaded portion of plug. It looks like a 1/2 inch (wrench size) bolt. I have a machinist friend who will rebuild my old (air-sucking) pump into the modified one with lower AND upper bushings installed. If I can find the GM vacuum pump, I will also eliminate the vacuum pump.<BR>One thing I'm not clear on - I understand the reason for a shorter spring - because the threaded portion of the plug is using up some room. But why is the relief valve piston itself shorter? Did they drill the relief passage in a different location in the later pump body??<p>[ 08-22-2001: Message edited by: Randy Berger ] Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Posted August 23, 2001 Share Posted August 23, 2001 The FACTORY plug is a 5/8 FINE thread (i think thats 18TPI) about 1/2 inch long and uses a 7/8 inch wrench. BUT, thats NOT what u want to use when modifying the early open port type pump.<P>For the open port type pump u need to use a 9/16 fine thread bolt. Trim the thickness of the head as much as possible (down to about 1/8 inch or less) for oil pan clearence. The LENGTH of the threads need to be enuf to JUST completely cover the cotter pin holes. Leave the end of the plug SOLID. Doing this will maintain the spring position exactly like it was from the factory. The outer face of the pump housing where the head of the plug mates will have to be milled smooth and square with the bore of relief valve so that will ultimalty determine the length of the thread.<BR>Modify the existing long relief piston as shown above in one of the pics. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Posted August 23, 2001 Share Posted August 23, 2001 I will get u exact dimensions of both plugs and send u some pics (not shown above) later on tonite or tomorow. I dont have the pumps here with me rite now. Is this machinist GOOD???????? What will your machinist do about the upper factory bearing surface of the pump if it is worn????????? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Posted August 23, 2001 Share Posted August 23, 2001 The later plugged factory pump had a different relief valve bore set up that the early open port pump. Look at your open port pump inside. U will see an open cavity all around the midway perimiter of the relief bore. The plugged pump was SOLID ALL around the piston except for a 1/4 or 3/8 hole relieving into the suction side of the pump. There r a few other differences too. <BR>But the differences between the pump castings is not a consideration when modifying the open port pump for a plug. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Posted August 23, 2001 Share Posted August 23, 2001 CLARIFICATION: One of the pics above shows a FACTORY plugged pump. The PR valve with 2 holes in it is from an OPEN PORT early pump that i plugged and there is no pic of that above. Thot i mite better explain that to avoid any confusion. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Posted August 25, 2001 Share Posted August 25, 2001 Pump plug dimensions:<BR>FACTORY PLUG: requires 7/8 wrench. Thread length: 7/16 inch long. thickness of head: 3/16. Overall length 5/8. Threads are 5/18-18 (SAE fine thread) Hole in end of plug for spring is 1/2 deep.<P>HOMEMADE PLUG FOR OPEN PORT early type pump:<BR> requires 3/4 wrench size. Thread length 3/8. Head 1/8+ thick. overall length 1/2+ inches long. Threads r 9/16-18 (sae fine thread) NO hole in end of plug. It is solid. This plug was hand dressed from a standard hardware store bolt using file and hacksaw and crocus cloth. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
WCraigH Posted August 25, 2001 Author Share Posted August 25, 2001 Keith: Nothing like a JPG to clarify what you've done. This is pretty esorteric stuff, even to us afficandoes. But, we're all extremely interested in same. BTW, got the front lower bumper for the Panther... Thanks Buddy! your name will prominently displayed on the "credit" side!!! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
WCraigH Posted August 25, 2001 Author Share Posted August 25, 2001 Oh Yeah, for those who weren't in on the deal: Keith sent me a "pretty good" front lower bumper for 55-56 and I sent him a "pretty much trashed and mostly rusted" oil pump in direct exchange. The former was for my Pather project and the latter is probably for the benefit of us all. Thanks Keith! When I get this bumper cleaned up, I'll show it via JPG to everone. Meanwhile, Keith is is one good guy and a a true Packard afficianado!!!! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Posted August 25, 2001 Share Posted August 25, 2001 Craig: glad u're happy with the bumper. I'm happy with the pump and cna use it as a mock up on my parts car for future research while i drive the good car with the currently modified other pump i've been working on. BTW, if u happen to find the steel plate that covers the bottom of the pump just send it along. Its kind of hexagonal shaped with 6 screw holes at the corners. You'll be able to see where the 2 gears wear a round pattern in it on one side. <BR> <BR>I'll also be studying the possibility of a retro fit plate that is thicker to replace the factory plate. The factory plate is just to thin to accept a bushing on its own. I really dont like the 'sandwiching' method i used in the pics above but it should work ok for now. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Posted September 3, 2001 Share Posted September 3, 2001 the pump is on the car and the oil pan buttined up. In fact, everything is re-assembled except for valve covers. I have a little more research i want to do on valve lash. Nontheless, tomorrow i'll start her up and make a test run with my modified pump. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Randy Berger Posted September 3, 2001 Share Posted September 3, 2001 The first time I turned the engine over after installing the new oil pump was by hand with a ratchet on the vib damper bolt and no spark plugs or distributor while running the oil pump with a drill running counter-clockwise. I ratcheted that engine over by hand for about three-four minutes while watching a direct-reading aux. oil pressure gauge. Finally satisfied, I installed distrib., plugs and fired it up.<BR>No guts, I guess. Waiting to see how your trials go - good luck. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RO Posted July 10, 2003 Share Posted July 10, 2003 From the archives......Keith, Craig, explain this photo to me. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RO Posted July 10, 2003 Share Posted July 10, 2003 you have to scroll down to see the jpeg. Some of the photo may be cut off, but I am trying to determine where the differnces are between the two pumps. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest imported_PackardV8 Posted July 11, 2003 Share Posted July 11, 2003 Look closely at the MOUNTING FLANGE of both pumps. The pump on the left is LATE 56 (5672-1834) and the pump on the right is 5672 1074.The pumps setting BACK-TO-BACK The lower bolt hole in the right pump is fairly centred in the ear of the mounting flange while the corresponding UPPER hole in the left pump is off to one side of the ear. (remeber they are setting back to back. So the upper hole in one pump corresponds to the lower hole in the other).ALSO NOTE the staining pattern around the oil exit bore of the mounting flanges keeping in mind that the pumps are back-to-back.Also notice the the lower hole in the right pump is ENLARGED. i had to do that get the late pump to fit my early block.Setting the pumps Back-to back was the onlt way i could photogragh them for close up comparison. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest imported_PackardV8 Posted July 15, 2003 Share Posted July 15, 2003 see explanation above ^ Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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