unca vinny

Just because the military says they can't deliver generically addressed cards because someone *might* try to use one to hurt a wounded soldier doesn't necessarily mean that anyone has ever sent anything that would actually do so. Perhaps someone did something in the past and now they're once bitten and twice shy. Maybe not... But the military, among other organizations, are capable of imagining that someone *could* do such a thing and they choose to err on the side of caution. Imagine the liability issue for the Army, Red Cross, or whoever if someone put a biohazard substance into an Xmas card and a wounded soldier (or unwounded nurse or doctor) got sick or died due to exposure. Imagine how such a thing might impact recruiting. It's not like they have spare personnel that can be assigned to checking get well or Xmas cards, although if they did have people assigned to do that it might increase the chances of some jerk sending a letter bomb to a hospital. If anyone wants to see occasional glimpses into the crazy side of Zero Tolerance programs (usually public school related, but not always), I recommend subscribing to Randy Cassingham's weekly "This is True", delivered to your email box in either Free or Premium version. Premium is supposed to have more stuff, but I've been getting the Free version for a couple of years and it's a Laff Riot every week. You can sign up for free at www.thisistrue.com and try it.

Howard and TD, hope you guys are OK...I think I have an idea of who brought up what and why. Thanks to you two and everybody else here. At this point I'm going to have to wait until the week after Thanksgiving to do anything, but since a lot of people who know more than I do about this are mentioning the crank sensor, it makes sense to me to replace that and also do all the stuff in the FSM about "Intermittents" to rule out other grounding/connectivity possibilities. Anyone know where to get the special tool mentioned in the FSM ? I assume a Buick dealer can supply it, but is it common enough that someplace like NAPA would carry it ? Thanks again for everybody's attention, patience, and knowledge with this.

After reviewing all the helpful suggestions about my problem (engine goes to sleep...see Engine Stops Intermittently thread), I have come to the point where I think I need to replace either or both of the oil pressure sender and the crank position sensor. I believe I can do the oil pressure sender here at home and will try to do the crank sensor at the local high school's shop (or have them do it for me if they can be persuaded). Would appreciate any comments on the oil sender based on the following: when I start the engine, within a second or three the oil pressure gauge reads at maximum (3 o'clock position or thereabouts) and stays there without change until I shut off the engine. Is this normal or does it indicate that the sender unit is faulty ? Can it be erratically faulty and cause the gauge to display what it does most of the time, but also every once in a while shut off power to the fuel pump, which is supposed to happen when the pressure is dangerously low ? I haven't looked down at it to see if it is the silver colored (original) one that some have said was the subject of a Tech. Service Bulletin. I also didn't notice whether the gauge was displaying low oil pressure during the times I was trying to restart it the three times that it died/went to sleep. I suspect I will replace these two things unless someone comes up with a reasonable explanation as to why something else is more likely and then (or before, depending on my schedule) check everything listed in the Big Blue Shop Manual relative to Intermittents. Any comments welcome, thanks.

Howard, thanks for the response about the fuel pump relay being for starting and the fuel pump being controlled by the oil pressure sender the rest of the time. I'll mention this to the guy at the auto shop. I went back and checked a lot of old posts about the oil pressure sender. Apparently if the sender reports super low or nonexistent oil pressure it will turn off the fuel pump. As I recall from driving around, my oil pressure display on the dash always seems to be super high. Is there any way a faulty oil pressure sender could be reporting super high almost all of the time and then occasionally report zero, turning off the fuel pump ? If that could happen, is there any way to check such a sender after it has been removed from the car ??? I would love to find something that I can be sure is wrong by testing it and then replace or repair it. Otherwise, having an engine go to sleep in the mountains is just too much to risk.

Dave, I went back to about page 48 and the only post I see for 7/18/07 is smoething about replacing an instrument panel cluster. I must be missing some simple webpage tech here. Suggestions ?

Dave, is there an easy way to jump to 7/18/07 ? I put that in the search box and got no results. Looked over the page fairly thoroughly. Do I just need to page back 5 at a time ? Thanks. BTW, any comment on the mounting locations for the relays?

Viking, I won't find out for sure until I talk to the guy tomorrow. I recall from one or more posts here (I had read a bunch before I posted my first one) that the fuel pump relay should be on the firewall under or near the brake master cylinder. Is that the correct location as far as you know? I recall (maybe incorrectly) from trying to diagnose an ABS light problem years ago in our first (89) Reatta that there were two brake system relays somewhere else on or near the firewall. If that is the case, please confirm, because it's always possible he yanked the wrong relay altogether, thought there was a big mystery and then went to work squishing wires. If, so, no wonder the car kept running, huh ? Teachers can always make mistakes too, even if they own a full service garage as their other job (which this one does). Would love to know tonight or early tomorrow about the mounting location of the fuel pump relay and the other one or two brake system relay(s). Anyone?...Bueller? Thanks to all for your help so far.

Here's the latest to everyone who offered suggestions...and anyone else who might have an idea. This afternoon I didn't talk to the teacher who oversaw the work, but the senior guy told me that his colleague pulled the fuel pump relay out of its socket while the car was running...and it kept on running ! This suggests to the head guy that someone somewhere somewhen did something very irregular to the wiring. (On the windshield of my car there was a circuit diagram with the fuel pump relay area highlighted, so I think they must have pulled out the right relay...unless someone thinks that is not possible.) He also wiggled lots of wires trying to find one that could make the engine go to sleep, but no luck on that. Also, he didn't see any wiring that looked new, strange, or otherwise out of place or re-engineered. Does this make sense to anyone here ? If there is a way to rig the wiring to where the absence of the fuel pump relay will still allow the car to run, which wires might they be ? According to the senior guy, it was running for around two hours without a fault I'll probably get a call from the guy who worked on it tomorrow informing me about all this. I suspect that unless someone here can come up with a wiring suggestion (or say that he absolutely must have pulled the wrong relay) he'll ask me to take it home... If I take it home, there's no way I can drive it reliably, and I don't have the expertise to diagnose a re-wiring anomaly like they're suggesting as the underlying problem, so I'd have to get rid of the car. If anyone is remotely interested, feel encouraged to contact me by regular email at vincedidonato@cox.net. Other than this recent engine-sleep epidemic, the car's in decent shape with about 113K miles, otherwise strong motor and transmission. The antenna's stuck in down position, but the radio and tape player still function well... I'd much rather be able to locate the problem and fix it and keep it...but I'm not ready to go over a cliff for love, you know...

TDman, thanks a bunch for the step by step. I'll get a new relay today and do the measurements and comparisons you suggested. If I get very lucky, I'll find a significant difference. If not, at least I'll have a newer relay and one less thing to check.

Thanks for mentioning the O2 sensor, TDman. I'll definitely spring for all of the easy/inexpensive things that people here have mentioned as long as the exam at the school (or somewhere) turns up one or more things that were definitely able to have been the cause of the dying/sleeping problem. The school has a ROP (adult ed, more or less) auto tech class on Thursday evenings. If the daytime class isn't able to test everything that folks here have suggested, I'll ask the instructors if I can enroll in that class and use their gear to test/repair the rest of the list by myself. The important thing to me, regardless of cost, is to locate something that we can be relatively certain was the cause of it dying those three times. Otherwise, the long term prospect of driving that twisty road to and from work (just that part) starts looking like Russian roulette with a single round missing. Barring that, I think I'm safer driving it in something like a lightweight, non-power-steering car like a mid-60's VW Beetle and letting someone else do the detective work or risk taking. Maybe there's another way to phrase the relay-test question...let's say I replace the old fuel pump relay with a brand new one. If I cut the old one apart with a Dremel cutting disk, is there anything I can look for on the inside of the old one that would make me confident that it had been failing intermittently. If it were the old computer days, we could look for a literal bug between some contacts, but since the thing is sealed well enough to make that verrrry unlikely, does anyone know if it is worth looking for corrosion or pitting or discoloration in the inside? I've never had to think about cutting open a possibly dead relay, but maybe some people here have done it.

Alex and Jack, thanks for your suggestions. Someone contacted me by email and their list included checking the fuel rail pressure and fuel pump relay. I'm sure the folks at the school can check the pressure...but the relay ? I know this relay is inexpensive and simple to replace, but does anyone know of a way to test the one I have to see if it is faulty ? I'd be happy to replace it and probably will just in case, but I'm not aware of any simple test equipment that's available to run them through a bunch of cycles and see if they fail.

Thanks, Howard. Another primary vote for Crank Pos. Sensor. We'll see what happens in the general election on Tuesday. Also will make a note of mentioning the Cam Pos. Sensor.

Thanks, Campolojr. Hope we turn out to be crank sensor cousins, at least in the sense that my saga ends with that item too. I forgot to mention that after the 2nd incident the shop replaced the fuel filter too, so other than the crank sensor, which should get looked at on Tuesday, it looks like we've replaced pretty much the same equipment. I don't recall whether or not I have had the check engine light come on or not. The first time was at a not insignificant speed, the second time I had a city bus right behind me, and the third time was an "Oh, #$%^, not this again" kind of moment, so I was rather distracted each time.

My 1990 Reatta has stopped running 3 times in the past 2 weeks. 1st Incident Driving on city street at about 45 MPH...engine stops. Tried to restart in neutral. Starter appeared to crank but engine would not restart. Was able to coast and turn into motel parking lot. Next morning had it towed to a shop that had just repaired a coolant leak on it a day or two before. They found ICM/coil pack leaking and replaced it with a new spare one (Delco) that I had at home. 2nd Incident A day or two later I was waiting for the signal to change in a left turn lane, and the engine stopped again. As before, I tried to restart the engine. Same as before, the starter appeared to crank but no ignition. Had it towed to the same shop. They ran a diagnostic (not sure what type of equipment they used for this) and said that they traced the problem to corroded wires creating poor contact in an area on the underside of the nose of the car where the positive battery cable is near the starter. They charged for repairing/replacing/cleaning wires. They told me that that was the only problem reported by their diagnostic equipment. 3rd Incident Drove the car home last Wednesday (we had been evacuated due to the So. Cal. wildfires). Drove it Thursday without any problems. On Friday morning it died again at a stop sign just down the block from my house. Had it towed to a shop up here. T hey couldn't look at it until yesterday. When they began, they told me that it cranked but didn't start for a couple seconds or so, but it started on the second try. Then it ran for hours on the shop floor without incident. This shop also hooked up diagnostic equipment to the car but couldn't get any indication of malfunction(s). The head mechanic told me that he drove it around the parking lot a few times trying to get it to die again, but it wouldn't misbehave in any way. He released it to me with no charges at all. The shop in incidents 1 + 2 is a general purpose facility doing brakes, tires, smog, etc. The shop here at home specializes in electronic/electrical problems and is recommended by the head auto shop instructor at the local high school (whose student teams routinely place in the top 5 or 10 in national competitions). I talked to the auto shop teacher and he is willing to at least look at the car next week. His first place to look, after hearing the above saga, is going to be the crank sensor. Something to do with shielded cables running from there to the ICM. He may be willing to do more investigation if that doesn't turn up anything specific. I have read or scanned hundreds of posts here today and have turned up some possible areas that he might check. I can replace fluids, plugs, wires, serpentine belts, and even a water pump or an ICM in a pinch by myself, but I don't have any expertise in diagnosing electrical problems like this one appears to be, my list below is in no particular order of importance. If anyone would comment on the benefits of checking these other things I would greatly appreciate it. If you have enough experience to be able to rate them in order of likelihood of being the underlying problem, even better. I'll take anything I can get.... Possible causes ??: Fuel pump/fuel pump relay Battery cable integrity Starter connections Ignition switch (at bottom of steering column) Alternator If you prefer to contact me by regular email, feel encouraged to write to vincedidonato@cox.net PS...I'm also a teacher but I drive 30 miles to and from work up and down a serious mountain road 5 days a week. I don't feel safe doing that unless we can find whatever has been making the car go to sleep and not want to wake up. If I can't get it repaired, I'll have to sell it to someone who knows what they're getting into wrt repairing it or to someone who simply wants to part it out. It only has 113K on it and I'd love to keep it for many more years. My wife drives an 89 Reatta with about 160k on it and before that we had an 89 that lasted up to about 265K. But I can't risk driving a sleep-prone car in the mountains...Thanks