rodlars

I don't think this cloning thing is an entirely new phenoenom. When my dad was really into early V8 Fords, a common occurence was to take a boring old standard model and restore it as a deluxe. I am also sure there has been at least one fuel injected 57 Chevy convertible shown at Hershey that did not leave the factory as a 283/283 hp. At the Mopar Nationals, they have an OEM category of judging where every last component is checked for part #, date code, etc... It involves the use of a hoist and a couple of hours per car, so you can see where this is simply not practical under the time constraints of an AACA National Meet. I still think, as stated earlier, that a broadening of the muscle car categories to include all muscle cars would be a good thing. As far as I know, there is not a national organization for muscle cars in general. Everyone pretty much has to stick with their own brand-specific club for a national show. I think if the AACA were to expand the classes and market it as the nation's only national judging forum, it would go a long way to help with the whole "bringing in the next generation" issue. Recently, there have been two new muscle car magazines hit the market and it looks like there is life slowly being breathed back into the old Musclecar Review magazine. Obviously it is the current "hot" trend. If more legitimacy is desired to eliminate the attack of the clones, a simple VIN and data tag check would do it for most cars. No, you are not going to catch a well done rebody or a car that has had a slew of options added, but at least you would know that the Hemi Road Runner convertible you are looking at did not start life as a 318 powered Sport Satellite convertible. Perhaps it is as simple as adding a 5th member to the judging team, armed with a cheat sheet of engine and body style codes. Just a little food for thought, now that the turkey hangover has run its course. Rod

According to what was posted on another thread I remeber reading, the AACA rules do not prohibit the entry of clone cars at a national event. As long as it is equipped as per factory specifications, it is okay. Serial numbers and codes are not checked/verified. Conceivably, someone can take a 318 Barracuda convertible, restore it as a Hemi equiped car and win an AACA first. There is really nothing to be gained financially from this as just about any buyer who isn't living under a rock can tell a clone from the genuine article so an AACA tab will hold zero sway (other than being a very well done clone, of course). As HD has mentioned, some sort of a pre-certification process would be required as there is simply not enough time to bring a cart load of reference books to the judging field and personally verify every car. Not to hijack the thread, but my biggest bone of contention with this class is that it is excessively "elitist". It includes only the very highest members of the musclecar food chain. For example, the Mopar group would eliminate all Mopars not equipped with the 426 Hemi or Max Wedge with the exception of the Daytonas/Superbirds, AAR/TA cars and the letter series 300 Chryslers. 383 Road Runners, 340 Swingers, 440 Cudas and such, need not apply. With the overall resurgence of the musclecar faction of the hobby, it was disappointing to see only a mere handful at Hershey this year. Of course there were a few legitimate musclecars scattered throughout class27, so it wasn't a total wash.

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Quote:</div><div class="ubbcode-body">What do you base that conclusion on? that original cars are more valuable than restored cars?? You won't see any paint chipped or unrestored/original muscle car getting the dollar amounts that the restored ones are, and that's a fact...just attend any major auction or show or check ebay., fully restored cars are through the roof in value! Shows...most of the classes that have survivors or unrestored classes...you're lucky if you get two cars there...hardly going in that direction IMHO., but of cousre you may be looking at this from the perspective of someone older or cars that are pre 1960, or just based on something else?? Looked to me like HERSHEY had more fully restored cars than original. and what is over-restored? I am curious? </div></div> Just this past summer, in Moparland, an extremely well preserved 71 Demon 340 sold for over $30K. A well restored one would probably top out at around 20. Well preserved, low mileage survivors are a rare breed and command premium prices. This holds true for antiques to muscle cars. Due to their rarity and desireability, these cars usualyy change hands via word of mouth and such and rarely show up on ebay. The auction houses are a good benchmark, but not the only medium available for moving a car. I will admit that for the trophy hounds, restored is the only way to go. over restored: Cars that feature buffed and polished paint jobs, glossy painted undercarriages, absence of factory undercoating, glossy engine compartments, metal-finished engine blocks, etc... To sum up, a car that has been reassambled with much, much more care and dedication than what was originally afforded on the assembly line. There was a dark red 64 Eldorado at Hershey this year that was a picture-perfect example. There is actually a painter up in Minnesota who is valued by the Mopar guys because of his ability to mimic factory orange peel and paint runs. For what it's worth, 66, I would take your car over a true "survivor" myself but wouldn't be shocked if said survivor was able to command an equal or higher price. My definition of survivor would be something that is well enough preserved to score a 2nd or 3rd AACA Junior. Rod

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Quote:</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Because of this, you may have instances where the judge may take points off for something that isn't wrong, and the current policy prevents the car owner from proving themselves as right. On the flip side, you may have a judge who does know the difference, and a car owner that doesn't, and because of the policy, the car owner may not be able to correct the problem.</div></div> Call me stubborn, but I still disagree with this point, 98th. <img src="http://www.aaca.org/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" /> The present system will indeed let the owner know what he was docked for and would allow him to correct the vehicle or refute the deduction. For example, if I am constantly being deducted for a gas tank finish that I know is correct, the amount of points deducted is irrelevant. All I need to know is the component that is constantly costing me and then make sure I have the proper documentation in hand at the next national meet I attend. If you had the point totals handy, I suppose you would be directed to the biggest of your problem areas, but like I said earlier, If you are honest with yourself and have a reasonable amount of knowledge about your car, you probably already know all of the answers.

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Quote:</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Why doesn't the owner get to see his/her score after the judging? It would be a way for the owner to improve the car.</div></div> Or, as is most often the case, so they can include it in their Hemmings ad when it comes time to sell the car to justify the stratospheric asking price. If a vehicle owner is reasonably knowledgeable and is perfectly honest with themselves, the point deductions wouldn't tell them anything they didn't already know. As the 34 Ford brake handle example pointed out, if I was in fact unsure of something, I would rely on information outside of the AACA judging sheet anyway. The World Series trophy isn't any bigger for the team that wins in 4 as opposed to 7 so who cares what your point total is if you recieved the award you were after.

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Quote:</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Now, can this 70 Dodge get top awards at a Mopar only, probably NOT! There are too many Dodge experts on hand that would pick out the problems right away. One last possibility is that the Dodge owner is just ignorant about his car. Maybe he was sold a bill of goods by the previous owner (or dealer) and the proper research was not done.</div></div> This very same car received 1st Place - E-body Dodge Stock at the 2000 Mopar Nationals. In the owners's defense, he admits that he did in fact add the RT badging. It is a genuine Challenger convertible equipped with the 340 package. Dodge did not begin badging 340's as RT's until 1971. Even if the judge was aware of this bit of history, the point deductions would be for the unneccessary RT badges the car is wearing (grille, front fenders, trunk lid)only. Everything else on the car is quite legit. The judges at the Mopar Nats were well aware of this fact but the quality of the restoration is just too much to deny. The car is absolutely dead-on with the exception of the extra badging. While I think it is quite worthy of its national 1st and AGNM badges, it does seem a little awkward to have this particular hybrid as a national award winner (Chocolate Town, if I am not mistaken).

To get back to the original question, I think you are looking at the 365 from the wrong perspective. I perceive it as a "safety net" rather than a pure required minimum. I beleive it is the AACA's intent to award 1st place in the class to the highest scoring vehicle and then allow any others scoring within 10 points to come along for the first place ride. At most meets, the class winner is probably going to score 390+, so the bar has been set. The 365 is probably a number that was determined to prevent a low scoring vehicle from winning a national 1st just because it happened to be the only car in that class on that particular Saturday. I also disagree with your comment that not dishing out 1st juniors to every vehicle that scores 365 points is chasing away exhibitors. If just about everyone received one, it wouldn't mean as much so why bother trying for one. You have to keep in mind that this is a national event so in order to maintain an acceptable level of prestige, it should be a difficult award to win. As it is, it is much easier to win an AACA first than it is at most marque-specific nationals. The year I received my first junior, senior and was nominated for a national award, my car placed 3rd in class at the Mopar Nationals. It should be noted that the car was restored by the previous owner in his own garage with the exception of the paint job which was shot by a friend who was a little more experienced. I trailered the car to the shows only because it had 3.91 gears which made it difficult to cruise over 55 mph and I hate having to clean dead bugs out of my grille and radiator core. While at home, the car was driven to several local shows, cruise nights and was street raced on occasion. Hardly what I would call a "trailer queen". Cheers! <img src="http://www.aaca.org/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/grin.gif" alt="" />

btt

We are pleased to announce that Canada's largest and most prestigious Concours d'Elegance is once again up and running. For more information, please visit www.willisteadclassic.com. We have had loyal support from many AACA members in the past and welcome any new participants. If you wish to nominate a vehicle, please contact Rod Larson at willistead2000@hotmail.com. The show committee is once again on a mission to outdo ourselves and we look forward to seeing you at the event. The show date is Sunday, August 24, 2003 and the location is Willistead Manor, Windsor, ON (right accross the river from Detroit, MI). Happy Motoring! Rod

We are pleased to announce that Canada's largest and most prestigious Concours d'Elegance is once again up and running. For more information, please visit www.willisteadclassic.com. We have had loyal support from many AACA members in the past and welcome any new participants. If you wish to nominate a vehicle, please contact Rod Larson at willistead2000@hotmail.com. The show committee is once again on a mission to outdo ourselves and we look forward to seeing you at the event. The show date is Sunday, August 24, 2003 and the location is Willistead Manor, Windsor, ON (right accross the river from Detroit, MI). Happy Motoring! Rod

We are pleased to announce that Canada's largest and most prestigious Concours d'Elegance is once again up and running. For more information, please visit www.willisteadclassic.com. We have had loyal support from many AACA members in the past and welcome any new participants. If you wish to nominate a vehicle, please contact Rod Larson at willistead2000@hotmail.com. The show committee is once again on a mission to outdo ourselves and we look forward to seeing you at the event. The show date is Sunday, August 24, 2003 and the location is Willistead Manor, Windsor, ON (right accross the river from Detroit, MI). Happy Motoring! Rod

We are pleased to announce that Canada's largest and most prestigious Concours d'Elegance is once again up and running. For more information, please visit www.willisteadclassic.com. We have had loyal support from many AACA members in the past and welcome any new participants. If you wish to nominate a vehicle, please contact Rod Larson at willistead2000@hotmail.com. The show committee is once again on a mission to outdo ourselves and we look forward to seeing you at the event. The show date is Sunday, August 24, 2003 and the location is Willistead Manor, Windsor, ON (right accross the river from Detroit, MI). Happy Motoring! Rod

We are pleased to announce that Canada's largest and most prestigious Concours d'Elegance is once again up and running. For more information, please visit www.willisteadclassic.com. We have had loyal support from many AACA members in the past and welcome any new participants. If you wish to nominate a vehicle, please contact Rod Larson at willistead2000@hotmail.com. The show committee is once again on a mission to outdo ourselves and we look forward to seeing you at the event. The show date is Sunday, August 24, 2003 and the location is Willistead Manor, Windsor, ON (right accross the river from Detroit, MI). Happy Motoring! Rod

We are pleased to announce that Canada's largest and most prestigious Concours d'Elegance is once again up and running. For more information, please visit www.willisteadclassic.com. We have had loyal support from many AACA members in the past and welcome any new participants. If you wish to nominate a vehicle, please contact Rod Larson at willistead2000@hotmail.com. The show committee is once again on a mission to outdo ourselves and we look forward to seeing you at the event. The show date is Sunday, August 24, 2003 and the location is Willistead Manor, Windsor, ON (right accross the river from Detroit, MI). Happy Motoring! Rod

We are pleased to announce that Canada's largest and most prestigious Concours d'Elegance is once again up and running. For more information, please visit www.willisteadclassic.com. We have had loyal support from many AACA members in the past and welcome any new participants. If you wish to nominate a vehicle, please contact Rod Larson at willistead2000@hotmail.com. The show committee is once again on a mission to outdo ourselves and we look forward to seeing you at the event. The show date is Sunday, August 24, 2003 and the location is Willistead Manor, Windsor, ON (right accross the river from Detroit, MI). Happy Motoring! Rod

We are pleased to announce that Canada's largest and most prestigious Concours d'Elegance is once again up and running. For more information, please visit www.willisteadclassic.com. We have had loyal support from many AACA members in the past and welcome any new participants. If you wish to nominate a vehicle, please contact Rod Larson at willistead2000@hotmail.com. The show committee is once again on a mission to outdo ourselves and we look forward to seeing you at the event. The show date is Sunday, August 24, 2003 and the location is Willistead Manor, Windsor, ON (right accross the river from Detroit, MI). Happy Motoring! Rod

We are pleased to announce that Canada's largest and most prestigious Concours d'Elegance is once again up and running. For more information, please visit www.willisteadclassic.com. We have had loyal support from many AACA members in the past and welcome any new participants. If you wish to nominate a vehicle, please contact Rod Larson at willistead2000@hotmail.com. The show committee is once again on a mission to outdo ourselves and we look forward to seeing you at the event. The show date is Sunday, August 24, 2003 and the location is Willistead Manor, Windsor, ON (right accross the river from Detroit, MI). Happy Motoring! Rod

We are pleased to announce that Canada's largest and most prestigious Concours d'Elegance is once again up and running. For more information, please visit www.willisteadclassic.com. We have had loyal support from many AACA members in the past and welcome any new participants. If you wish to nominate a vehicle, please contact Rod Larson at willistead2000@hotmail.com. The show committee is once again on a mission to outdo ourselves and we look forward to seeing you at the event. The show date is Sunday, August 24, 2003 and the location is Willistead Manor, Windsor, ON (right accross the river from Detroit, MI). Happy Motoring! Rod

We are pleased to announce that Canada's largest and most prestigious Concours d'Elegance is once again up and running. For more information, please visit www.willisteadclassic.com. We have had loyal support from many AACA members in the past and welcome any new participants. If you wish to nominate a vehicle, please contact Rod Larson at willistead2000@hotmail.com. The show committee is once again on a mission to outdo ourselves and we look forward to seeing you at the event. The show date is Sunday, August 24, 2003 and the location is Willistead Manor, Windsor, ON (right accross the river from Detroit, MI). Happy Motoring! Rod

We are pleased to announce that Canada's largest and most prestigious Concours d'Elegance is once again up and running. For more information, please visit www.willisteadclassic.com. We have had loyal support from many AACA members in the past and welcome any new participants. If you wish to nominate a vehicle, please contact Rod Larson at willistead2000@hotmail.com. The show committee is once again on a mission to outdo ourselves and we look forward to seeing you at the event. The show date is Sunday, August 24, 2003 and the location is Willistead Manor, Windsor, ON (right accross the river from Detroit, MI). Happy Motoring! Rod

We are pleased to announce that Canada's largest and most prestigious Concours d'Elegance is once again up and running. For more information, please visit www.willisteadclassic.com. We have had loyal support from many AACA members in the past and welcome any new participants. If you wish to nominate a vehicle, please contact Rod Larson at willistead2000@hotmail.com. The show committee is once again on a mission to outdo ourselves and we look forward to seeing you at the event. The show date is Sunday, August 24, 2003 and the location is Willistead Manor, Windsor, ON (right accross the river from Detroit, MI). Happy Motoring! Rod

We are pleased to announce that Canada's largest and most prestigious Concours d'Elegance is once again up and running. For more information, please visit www.willisteadclassic.com. We have had loyal support from many AACA members in the past and welcome any new participants. If you wish to nominate a vehicle, please contact Rod Larson at willistead2000@hotmail.com. The show committee is once again on a mission to outdo ourselves and we look forward to seeing you at the event. The show date is Sunday, August 24, 2003 and the location is Willistead Manor, Windsor, ON (right accross the river from Detroit, MI). Happy Motoring! Rod

We are pleased to announce that Canada's largest and most prestigious Concours d'Elegance is once again up and running. For more information, please visit www.willisteadclassic.com. We have had loyal support from many AACA members in the past and welcome any new participants. If you wish to nominate a vehicle, please contact Rod Larson at willistead2000@hotmail.com. The show committee is once again on a mission to outdo ourselves and we look forward to seeing you at the event. The show date is Sunday, August 24, 2003 and the location is Willistead Manor, Windsor, ON (right accross the river from Detroit, MI). Happy Motoring! Rod