Wedgewood64
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Posts posted by Wedgewood64
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Back on this. Taking it one step at a time, I removed the alternator/brackets. this let me remove the pump. I've tried to show in the photos how much the pump arm was bent, compared to the replacement I just purchased. in the side-to-side, the old one's the one on the right; in the over/under, it's the one on top. You can see the stress fractures in the arm. the side-to-side one shows that the old one's arm bends now to the right, while the old one slants left. the other photo (kind of) shows how the bends are now radically different...
Now, I assume somehow on installation of the now old pump I didn't position the arm correctly on the cam. It held for about 200 miles, then was bent to the point it wouldn't pump. BUT how does it fit in more than one way?
I haven't tackled the thread issue yet, but I did notice that the mounting hole is threaded right through the mounting flange in the front cover, meaning that one possibility is simply fitting a slightly smaller bolt and putting a nut on it. At any rate, I wouldn't think that shavings from the threading could be a problem b/c of the fact that the hole doesn't go through into the interior of the cover as I had thought.
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Hi Ed, thanks, I think I wasn't clear, in that the pump's not coming out isn't because of the bolt, which removes just fine. it's in the arm/cam somewhere. And I'm all the more perplexed in that I did bump the engine 360 degrees to find a position where it would come out, but no dice. But it's probably one of those things where I'll go out there next time and it will fall right out... otherwise, I may need to take off some of those brackets, after trying to prod around with a screwdriver... nick
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Thanks everyone. I suspect 64 Rivvy works a good deal faster than I do. Anyway, the whole reason I'm in this mess (admitted not a horrible one) is that I did something I really didn't have to, so... I'm not inclined to go the timing chain cover route, esp. b/c the one I have on there is a good used one that replaced the original. Good, except the bolt hole.
I was assuming that the advantage of the helicoil would be that it's a steel insert and thus the repair would presumably be more durable. Or that one can use the same bolt size? Anyway, I'll do one of the above, tap or helicoil--if only I can get the pump out. Grrr.
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Thanks to all. As for actually removing the pump, I'm still stumped on that one but I will try a screwdriver.... it's weird, I mean, from past experience getting it out is the easy part.
For the threads, I'm wondering about the Helicoil: Ed, when you say "insert," I assume you mean drill out, thread, then insert. but can one do a good job of that with the timing cover on the engine? or am I really looking at... what I don't want to look at?
nick
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Hello all,
Replaced the fuel pump a couple of months ago in search of possible cure for my bad case of Riviera Rattle (thread elsewhere). So, maybe with about 200 miles on it, it conks out. Delphi brand. OK, so, I go to change it out and find a) that in fact it was loose; and b) I swear, I can't get the thing out, even with the small alternator bracket support out. Twisting, turning... I even experimented turning the engine to see if that would help (I had started the swap at TDC, since that was what I understood worked best).
So, frustrated I decided maybe things would be all better if I just tightened up the bolts properly. Doing so, I found out that one of the bolts is stripped — or rather, the threads in the timing chain cover are. Well, with the one good bolt I got it tight... and confirmed that the pump was not working.
So, here I am with a pump I swear I can't get out (why??) and a stripped thread in the timing chain cover. What's my best course of action here? BTW, I was following the timing chain cover repop controversy in that other recent thread... so I guess I won't ask for advice about where to get a new one!
Thanks folks, nick
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An update from Rattletown.
The first thing I tried was rerouting the lines away from one another, insulating each with insulated clamps. See photo.
One thing that I was able to ascertain by doing this was that the rattle was clearly, 100% coming from the intake line (the larger one), not the return line. The other was that.... it didn't stop the rattle. It reduced it considerably. But the hammering was still working its way through the rubber to the bolts holding the clamps, and it was easily detectible.
The second thing I tried was a new fuel pump and filter. No dice.
Eventually I think I'm going to try to route a rubber line.
Nick
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I got a new switch in there, everything's functioning well. I wasn't able to find a how-to on wiring the suggested relay, so left that out. If anyone can point me the way to something explanatory (I have no real knowledge of electrics besides positive, and negative), I'd give it a try. The plug was a bit melted back there, though the wires themselves looked fine.
BTW, Is it normal that the key can be removed in any position except ACC?
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Ah, ok, there are two things then. I found some pages here on the fusible links; but for the auxiliary relay, I haven't come up with the thread. I think it's safe to say I'm not an ace with the electrics so I'd need to be walked through it. What I did find, though, did remind me that I HAVE felt the heat from the ignition switch before, Ed. Maybe not too recently, and not the key, so at first, I didn't really get it.
This lack of a relay is why there's the handy feature of the power windows working whether or not the ignition is on...? I like that feature; but I'm beginning to see the problem with it.
New ignition switch ordered. Haven't inspected wires yet.
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No (hot key). For the relay, I'll look it up. I was referring to the bit Tom Telesco published in the Riview in 2001 about a fire safety retrofit. I'm just wondering if this is the same fix under a slightly different name. Thanks all!
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Got it. By the relay, you're referring to the "fusible link" modification that has often been discussed? I've been meaning to do that...
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OK, makes sense. Simply replace switch, then? Jon (above) recommends testing. But if the problem comes and goes...?
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I think my only vacuum/pressure gauge is designed for air (?). So far, with light use, all is well.
My diagnosis was based on the circumstances and the fact that the engine was catching, and there was plenty of fuel in the bowls and coming through the throttle pump... So I reasoned that the catching eliminated something like a broken wire in the distributor (have had those before, but not in the Riv), and the ample fuel eliminated a pump problem. I may have just gotten lucky. There was nothing visible in the carb, btw.
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Well, having used all my Berryman's on the tear-down, I went out with my can of starter stuff. Disconnected the battery charger. Waiting for my wife to get home to do the operation, well... it fired up fine. I'm a little mystified, when I tried it 3 hrs before, the symptoms seemed exactly those during the fail. The many mysteries of internal combustion. Thanks for the pointers, I apologize for the bother.
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This is probably obvious to a lot of you, but I could use a trouble-shoot.
Replaced fuel filter. Drove 4 miles to Costco, filled up, parked, shopped. Leave Costco parking lot, cruise down road about 100ft... stall while moving. Drift to side. Restart; ignition catches, will even run for some seconds if I feather the pedal; but seems starved for fuel. Soon all that happens when cranking is that ignition catches immediately, immediately stalls. I verify fuel's pumping through the accelerator pump nozzles; put on old filter for good measure. No dice. Tow. (1st, I think, in 25 years of ownership.)
Figure some flake of something dislodged when changing filter, so tore down carb. Re-install. You guessed it, same issue. When cranked, catches immediately and stalls.
Original Carter AFB.
Thanks in advance, Nick
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@ Ed, I was kind of wondering that myself; it has been a few years. It may help. I will try it. It's true that the problem does come and go. It's particularly annoying right now--now that I put new sound insulation in the whole interior...
I would tend to think that if the lines were truly insulated with rubber, then the transmission of the hammering into the chassis wouldn't occur. The problem seems to me, though, that I'd essentially have to fit new clamps, b/c the stock ones leave no space for rubber insulation. Like gungeey, inspecting my lines, I'd say that there's no movement of the lines themselves--that's not where the sound comes from.
But I'm hesitating as to the least messy method. I'm pretty sure the hose solution would work, but it would look a little sloppy. On the other hand, I wouldn't want to go to the bother of changing all the clamps, only to find out that it was still detectable. @Telriv, I wasn't sure if you'd done this operation or if it just seemed like it should work.
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Well, not so simple for me, I don't know why. I tried getting the hose as close to the clamp as possible. No dice. Then I started putting in little wedges of cork here and there, just to make sure no vibrations were possible. (photo 1) No better. then I decided to try to put the hose over the line where it clamps--so clamping the hose and line together. To do that, b/c the clamp isn't big enough, I needed to leave out the feed line--so have only return line clamped. (photo 2) Left it like that as an experiment; but though it's a little better, it's still hammering away. When I go over to the line as it's occurring, I can feel it basically all up and down the steel line. It's strongest on the fuel tank side, but very perceptible under the rockers, which is why, when you're in the car, it's hard to tell where the sound is coming from--it's the whole line that's hammering.
I'm stumped as to why mine is so resistant to the easy fix, but so it is. Now, as a last ditch effort, why not simply bypass the steel line with rubber hose zip-tied to the old lines? It could hammer all it wants, but since the hammering wouldn't be transmitted to the body via the clamps... I know it wouldn't be pretty, but... it's better than the rattle.... Any other reason not to try this, aside from aesthetics?
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On 3/15/2013 at 2:58 PM, Jim Cannon said:
Tom has the cause defined correctly.
The rattle occurs back where the steel pipes of an A/C-equipped car run along the frame and then a rubber fuel line connects to the smaller steel line. It is the return line from the fuel filter.
The fix is to take a piece of 5/16" fuel hose, about 4 inches long, split it lengthwise, and slip it over the steel line (and some of the rubber line) between the line and the frame. Push it toward the front of the car to jam it in there so it will stay. You have now inserted a sound insulator between the steel line that rattles against the frame.
From my observations, it will rattle the next time you drive the car after you droving it and got it hot enough for vapor to be inside the return line. The next time you drive, you are sending a solid stream of liquid out of the fuel filter vent port and back to the fuel tank. When the leading edge of the liquid gets back by the frame, it rattles because the diaphragm style fuel filter sends the fuel out in pulses.
Returning to an old thread. When I had the tank out a while back I tried Jim Cannon's trick. While it improved the "rattle," it didn't make it go away entirely. Here are some photos: in one, you can see the whole length--must be at least 6" of line. What did I do wrong?
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well, here's my improvisation. I just snaps in. Won't fool anyone who knows, but I don't know anyone who knows. Note the difference between the Clark's dark blue and the originally upholstered seat back.
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I ended up going for a more off-road style. I couldn't see the 3-point harness in the light blue. I mounted the rear strap to metal under the package tray. Relatively straightforward. Will last the boy a few years until he won't tolerate the back seat...
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They did the job and I must say they stop very well. Haven't had to try a panic stop yet, but brakes felt strong from the first time out. Pads themselves ended up $126, arcing was $95.
One thing that was clear on taking the old ones out was that for some reason my back brakes were doing most of the work, which explains as well why they would lock up but the front never did. I'm not sure why the front ones weren't doing their job.
Anyway--I'm now a convert to arcing.
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I'd think the panic stop might take care of matters in a different way, i.e., by getting rid of car and driver.
Anyway, all this arcing biz had me googling around. I did find a place in San Jose CA (formerly B&A Friction [like that name], but now bought by FleetPride; basically a truck place), they will both put on new pads, turn drums, and arc. But they wouldn't, for example, arc pads with asbestos in them. There's a closer mustang place with supposedly good brake work, I wasn't able to get through but will try.
In google, also saw videos of people using arcing machines, umpteen reports of people buying the old machines as KongaMan says, tricks with hammers and anvils, sandpaper, rasps; and then lots of people saying why bother, they'll wear in fine. It's a bit of a rabbit hole, like asking what oil one should use.
Will report back. nick
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Huh, when I had regular Bendix in the car it wouldn't stop well, and I've read similar things here. Then Russ @ Centerville put in some relined shoes--not sure of the lining--and since then it has stopped I'd say pretty well (rear brakes tend to lock up). Anyway.
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Thanks Craig and Ed. I'm still curious, though.
Let's say we view the health risk as minimal. There are still some practical and technical things I don't understand. Practically: there are really enough NOS pads out there to keep running everyone's drums into the future? I'm glad to have Craig as a source; but I don't know, looking around I can't see lots of other sellers. And why would people go to the trouble and expense of having their old drums relined if it commits them to using a dwindling stock of pads? Technically, I guess I don't understand what makes the new, harder pads fail on our drums but (presumably) work on newer ones.
Anyone have a ballpark idea of how many owners of 60s Rivs have converted to disc? I'd imagine still a minority? And then they'd still run drums on the rear; with what pads?
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just changed my carpets, and I do miss the smell that everyone who climbed aboard appreciated. That said, it was just an old car smell, nothing foul.
odd fuel pump issues (1st gen)
in Buick Riviera
Posted
ah, makes sense. Didn't seem terribly loose, but that must be it.
I am working on the helicoil and thinking about an original pump. Gotta say that the previous pump--the one I replaced thinking it might be behind the rattle--was still working fine after about 20 years.