karguy12
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Posts posted by karguy12
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I enjoy a good debate as well. I personally do think the car is pretty fabulous. So do many other people. Try Dan Smith, author of "the World's Greatest Beach" about the land speed history there and Chief Historian for the Ormond Beach Historical Society and head of the areas racing history and events. Or perhaps Bill Warner of the Amelia Island Concours d'Elegance who thinks a) this is a LSR andOk, you win.It is the most fabulous discovery since Tut's Tomb. It was obviously designed by a consortium composed of Phil Wright, Alex Tremulus, Leonardo DaVinci and Jesus of Nazareth.
All you have done is drop names and make guesses based on a body line. I do not need to prove you wrong, you need to prove that you're right. So far you've failed, so my thoughts, illogical or not, really aren't important. You have not one scrap of evidence to even begin to suggest that the car has a pedigree. All of your, so called, evidence is circumstantial and a product of wishful thinking. You won't even discuss the possibility that the builder saw the Silver Arrow and designed the lines of your car because it doesn't fit into the imaginary scenario that you are attempting to concoct.
Now, this post will almost certainly be deleted by the moderators because they don't appreciate spirited debate. I have nothing against you, personally, and I've already made it clear that I like the car, but I just don't believe that a car of this, imagined, significance could be given this sort of exposure and viewed by hundreds, if not thousands, of old car guys,without one stepping up and saying, "I know that car and here's the story."
Of course, this is just my, illogical, opinion
that it is significant. Or John Tucker, who thinks this car is easily something his great Uncle would have built and is looking into it from his family's prospective. Everyone that has personally inspected the car feels that it is unmistakably a Land Speed car. And many more. But it's not the fact that it is a land speed car that is really in dispute. The question that still has yet to be answered is who designed and built it. Those that have inspected the car have been very impressed with it's quality of design and engineering. The shape is very advanced and well designed and not done by an amateur. The engineering on the car is also of a high standard. There were only so many people (or companies) in the 30's that had the financial means or the mechanical know-how to build a car to this standard during the depression era or the lean 30's. And most of those people knew each other and rubbed elbows in the same circles. In fact the more research I do, the more amazed I am about the small circle of men that were involved in these types of endeavors. Everybody knew everybody and they often worked together. I've said from the very beginning that I only want to find the history of this car, not write it. I can't help where the trail is leading. If you don't like the path this research is taking, prove who DID build it and put an end to it. But I assure you, the more research you do, the more you will find yourself looking in the same direction I am.
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No.... try reading my original post again. What "proof" are you referring to or claiming I presented as "proof"? If you don't know where to first look, how will you ever uncover the "dated drawings, period photos, written documentation or oral statements from witnesses"? But instead of trying to argue with your illogical position, why don't you prove the theory wrong? Do you have any dated drawings, period photos, written documentation or oral statements from witnesses saying that Phil Wright was not influenced by this very LSR when designing the Silver Arrow?So, what you're saying is, you have empirical evidence that this car was the inspiration for the Silver Arrow and not the other way around. All of your proof is rather nebulous. No dated drawings, no period photos, no written documentation, no oral statements from witnesses. Perhaps it was built as a LSR car. Maybe when the builder realized it would do about a hundred, he gave up, who knows. I hope it does turn out to have an interesting story to tell, but so far, all you have done is to offer speculation based on opinion and your own fervent desire that the Hope Diamond of cars has been discovered. This evidence would not hold up in small claims court. -
Really? Like what designs would Phil Wright have been influenced by with lines like these two cars? What cars are you aware of that had lines like these two from the early 30's? Surely you must have some examples to have made such a statement. Please, share with the rest of the class.^^^^Designs of this sort were around for many years prior to the creation of the LSR car and the Silver Arrow. Phil Wright was certainly influenced by these earlier drawings and models. Was he influenced by this car? It's not impossible, but the odds are less than remote.
With the main body line being almost identical and the LSR being built (the original car in 1931) at least two years prior to the Silver Arrow and both cars from the same manufacturer is seems more than "less than remote". When you also consider Pierce Arrows involvement in Land Speed record runs so much so that they invite Ab Jenkins to Buffalo and give him a car it again seems a much greater chance than "less than remote". With Preston Tucker's involvement with racing, streamliners, Harry Miller and his credo of "light as possible and radically streamlined", knowing Harlan Fengler and the Thorne streamliner is seems downright silly to ignore the possible connection. Preston Tucker was also given a 1931 Pierce Arrow when he went there to work in 1931. I wonder if this is his company car he converted.
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There is no doubt it was built as a LSR. There is no other purpose for a build of this type. Several people with vast knowledge on the subject are sure it is an LSR. I've never said it was a Pierce prototype. I have no idea where you got that information from. All I am stating is that I believe there is no mistaking the fact that this Pierce LSR influenced the design of the Silver Arrow. These are the ONLY two cars on the planet that share this body line. And share it they do... it is almost identical. BOTH were made in the early 30's. BOTH are Pierce Arrows and with the small circle of people building such cars in the early 30's, it would not surprise me at all WHO may have been involved with BOTH including one I KNOW was involved with at least one of them, Preston Tucker.Personally I think you are taking a great leap of faith even calling this a LSR car. Do you have any real evidence that it was ever intended to be a LSR car? In my mind it's someone's homemade attempt to build a car to their liking until and unless some evidence emerges suggesting it was more. Another case of the old slippery slope. The Pickers called it a LSR car. You picked up on that and are now suggesting it might be a Pierce prototype of some sort. To my eye it is what it is, someone's not very sophisticated attempt at a home built vehicle. Admittedly it is interesting and I do hope you discover more history on it but so far I just wouldn't make any assumptions. Surely somewhere there is a picture of the finished car if in fact it ever was finished and made driveable. If it looks like a duck and quacks like a duck..... -
I would also like to point out that there is an art to starting a conversation with "old car folk". You have to not be pushy. You have to appear to know something about cars, but not too much even if you do know everything. Sometimes getting people to talk about their cars is a lot easier then telling people what you know about their cars. A simple starter like "wow, where were you ever able to find something like this?" opens them up to talk about their favorite thing, their car, which is why most of them are at the car show in the first place.
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No..... just 106 people from one website for two days.Have I really stumped the entire internet with this part? -
Still trying to uncover history on the Pierce Arrow LSR car. A lot of clues but no smoking gun....yet. However, researching Pierce Arrow history I of course was aware of the 1933 Pierce Arrow Silver Arrow show cars. Five were hand built in 1932-33 and they were quite extraordinary for the time. Most unique was the sweeping fenderline that was flush with the door. Many cars after the war would be built this way. (was this the first?). The Pierce Arrow Land speed streamliner has a body line that to me looked very similar to the 1933 Silver Arrow so I did a little cutting and pasting and was quite shocked to see how closely the body side line matched the Silver Arrow. Did this LSR influence the Silver Arrow and give the designer the idea for the integral fender to door design? Check out these photos and tell me what you think....
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Having a little debate about what car had the first flush door to fender body line unlike the cars of the 30's with separate rounded fenders. There were several after WWII, but what was the earliest?
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The other lead that has surfaced is that the car was owned by Ralph "Pappy" Hankinson of Orange City from the late thirties until his death in 1942. The car was supposedly stored in the basement of the Orange City hotel in Orange City which was owned by Hankins...on and was also his residence when he wasn't in Pennsylvania or New York. Perhaps that explains the Pennsylvania Rubber co. tires on the car? Hankinson was a racing promoter and is in the National Sprint Car Hall of Fame. "Pappy" was also a part of the AAA, the same organization that timed and officiated the speed trials. After his death the Hotel stayed in the family for a while and was then sold with all of it's contents to a woman who for all accounts was a hoarder. The car remained in the basement until the 80's when the owner's health was failing and the hotel's contents were hauled off to a warehouse and sold. Allegedly this is how "Randy" from American Pickers purchased the car in 1988. There is an eye witness that claims to have seen the Pierce Arrow in the basement of the hotel in 1981. Can anyone confirm or dispute this scenario? It should also be noted that scenario one with Preston Tucker and scenario two with Ralph "Pappy" Hankinson of Orange City are both possible. A trip to Orange City is planned for next week to check out this lead and run a story in the local paper to flush out more information.
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The car is now on Yahoo newsgroups as the car that "stumped the internet"! lol The Pierce-Arrow also... two potential histories of the car have emerged.... The first is the Tucker story. There was a lead claiming it may have been built by Preston Tucker. Tucker was a regional manager for Pierce Arrow from 1931-1933 and had moved to Indianapolis to be near the speedway and was working with Harry Miller making a few race cars for Ford. That may ...explain the access to a 1931 Pierce Arrow chassis and drivetrain. There he would have met Harlan Fengler who built the Thunderbowl Comet or Falcon as it was known back then which looks similar to this Pierce LSR. Tucker liked cars and he liked going fast, so much so that as a youth he joined the police force just so he could drive fast cars or cars fast. He also would have seen the Thorne streamliner that was being built in Indianapolis during that time and worked on by Miller. Tucker also started an aviation business in 1934 and was working on building a fighter plane for possible use by the Army/Navy. That might explain the aviation influences on the Pierce streamliner including the gauges. Tucker would have had access to those gauges brand new if he was building a plane for military specs. Some of the gauges were also built in Buffalo New York just down the street from the Pierce Arrow factory. Maybe all this gave Tucker an urge to take back the speed records from the British or just try it as a publicity stunt. The story goes it was shipped down to Ormond for testing and by the time it was built and sent it was no longer competitive and the beach land speed scene was winding down due to safety. Tucker then went onto to other things such as the Tucker Tiger, a 120mph troop transporter/tank for the army. Tucker never stuck with anything for very long.... Can anyone prove or disprove this scenario?
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Found this in an old storage lot. Trying to save it.... We will see what happens. So sad.
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I've had many 64-66 Birds. These are way way older than that.
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When I was 15 i had saved up $100 from mowing lawns and shoveling snow and raking leaves and I wanted a car. My parents were against it of course and not at all supportive. I found an ad for a 1966 Belvedere convertible 318 stick shift car for $125. I hitchhiked over to the owner's home just before dusk and they sold it to me for $97.50 to leave me with $2.50 for gas. After the owner handed me the keys and went back in the house I realized that I had never driven a car before and wasn't sure I knew how. After starting it in gear and lurching around the neighborhood till it got dark, I decided to go for it and drove it home down 6 mile road in Detroit. I parked it around the block from my house and I would leave home to school on my bike, go around the block, put the bike in the trunk and drive to school. I drove that car to driver's Ed too. Of course spray painted it with grey primer and scrounged up some mags and had a blast with it. Ahh the good old days. A kid would have a criminal record a mile long for doing this today.
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So, are you thinking the car was built around 41? or skinnned with that material as a result of someone seeing that article?
No. What I am saying is that from looking at this article, and from examining this car, it appears the same type of construction was used in both cars. My guess is that the Pierce was built before 1941 since everything so far on the car has been dated previous to that. The other car appeared in the article about 1941.
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Yes, it is posted over on Landspeed. They mostly focus on 1936 to current when the land speed attempts moved over from the Daytona area to Bonneville. My thinking is that when the move to Bonneville occurred, this car was left behind perhaps without enough funding or inclination to take it out west to run it. In 1989 the previous owner was shown a photograph of this car running on the beach. I think there were still people using the beach to go fast and test even after the big show left town. I agree about it not having set any records. I just a) know it was purpose built to attempt one of the various speed records andHave you posted over on the www.landracing.com forum?They are the home of anything and everything about land speed racing on the net.
It's also a good resource for land speed history.
Also - I don't think your car actually set any records, or we would already know about it's origins.
think it ran somewhere either testing or attempting a record. That's all I have so far. But like most people I am amazed that it has been on the planet so long and nobody knows anything about it!
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I am trying to find the original source for these seats that were in the 1931 Pierce Arrow land speed car. They are both metal backed and fold forward on large pins. Seat backs were originally covered in the same material as the seats. Both seats are square on the side that they meet and rounded on the outside towards the doors.
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This fan does not look familiar to me and definitely does not belong on this Pierce Arrow straight eight in my opinion based on what I have seen on other similar engines. Can anyone ID its original application?
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Another interesting little tidbit..... This looks like it may also be the first plastic bodied car.... Here is a link to a Popular Mechanics article about a car built in 1941 using the exact same technique as this car was built using. On the Pierce the stainless mesh is still in place covered by the Ethyl Cellulose. There are even 3 inch striations on the body work from the special caulk gun used to apply the body in layers just like what is shown in the 1941 article. Nothing Earth shattering.... just interesting. I wonder if the car was built to showcase the "new" plastic product?
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Where was the car located? Maybe a search around the area it was found will turn something up.
The car was supposedly purchased in the Ormond Beach area in 1988/89. It has been verified to be in that area during that time at the 1989 Turkey Rod run just after the previous owner bought it. I have conflicting reports that it was also located in the Orlando area for some period of time but I have no proof of that. I have been in touch with virtually everyone who knows cars in the Daytona/Ormond Beach area and searched the local archives at the Halifax Museum. There will also be several articles coming out about the car in the Daytona area within the next week or so which will hopefully spark someone's memory about the car. We are nicknaming the car the Pierce Arrow Phantom for obvious reasons.
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REWARD: THERE IS A $100 REWARD TO BE PAID TO THE FIRST PERSON THAT CAN PROVIDE A PERIOD PHOTOGRAPH OF THIS CAR OR VERIFIED PROOF OF THE BUILDER OR ANY RACE HISTORY FOR THIS CAR! While not enough to get rich researching this car, it is enough to make the search a little more fun knowing that you were able to beat out every other car expert on the planet for bragging rights as "researcher extraordinaire" over every expert stumped by this car over the last month. I have also started a Facebook page for the car where I will be posting details of the car and of course the winner. https://www.facebook.com/PierceArrowLandSpeedRecordCar
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Having bought literally hundreds of cars over my half century on the planet has shown me one simple truth about car ads... When they don't have a price, it is usually because the seller KNOWS it is way over-priced and may be too embarrassed to list it.
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I finally got around to checking the tires on the car. All four are flat and very dry rotted and literally falling apart but the tread looks very deep on all four as if the tires were never used. The two rear tires are a matched pair of Goodyear Heavy Duty tires from the 30's. The two front tires are "Cincher" tires made by Pennsylvania Rubber Company. The Pennsylvania Tire company stopped making tires in just before WWII, so all four tires are pre-war. The two rear Goodyear's are wider than the front tires. I thought the Pennsylvania Rubber co. tires were interesting and indicate a pre-war build because tires were as rare as hen's teeth during the war so a pair of new Pennsylvania Rubber Co. tires would not have been laying around through the entire war to then be bought and put on a post war build. My opinion anyway..I wonder what other components can give clues as to how this car came about. I was wondering about the tires - assuming this covered very few miles, what kind of shape are they in in terms of tread wear and are they a matched set, etc. Where I am going with this is, if they are a matched set with little actual signs of miles it may point to a pro build, a mis-matched or worn out set could point more towards a budget type build. I could almost see a group of talented guys working on this in the postwar period, inspired by something like the Corsair, and of course the lines of WW II planes that inspired the auto designers as well. That could explain touches that could be popular with the hot rod/customizers like the electric door latches. Of course that may have actually been the simplest way to get working, streamlined doors?In any event, +1 to A.J.'s suggestion on aluminum sheathing - bring sunglasses to the sand!!
Also... the Stout Scarab from the early thirties also had electric door locks.
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Well, this may be a risky job, but if you use lots of clean rags, preferably white cotton, and laquer thinner you may be able to improve the look of your headliner. Do not rub the headliner too much as that alone can ruin your headliner.Many laquer thinner soaked rags I believe would be your best bet.It would be nice if you could release the headliner at a nearby edge and reach your hand in to carefully remove the source of your problem first as it may keep wicking through the headliner material when you wipe it. Patience is a virtue with this sort of a problem. Hope this helps.
I agree with all of the above. Laquer thinner acts like a strong dry cleaner since it dries so fast. It will melt the tar-like substance and you just have to keep applying it, wet at first, then dry it up with a clean rag. The headliner material may be dry rotted making this a dangerous proposition, but if it doesn't rip, this is your best bet.
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The one under the cover may be a mid year Corvette and worth asking about.
that it is significant. Or John Tucker, who thinks this car is easily something his great Uncle would have built and is looking into it from his family's prospective. Everyone that has personally inspected the car feels that it is unmistakably a Land Speed car. And many more. But it's not the fact that it is a land speed car that is really in dispute. The question that still has yet to be answered is who designed and built it. Those that have inspected the car have been very impressed with it's quality of design and engineering. The shape is very advanced and well designed and not done by an amateur. The engineering on the car is also of a high standard. There were only so many people (or companies) in the 30's that had the financial means or the mechanical know-how to build a car to this standard during the depression era or the lean 30's. And most of those people knew each other and rubbed elbows in the same circles. In fact the more research I do, the more amazed I am about the small circle of men that were involved in these types of endeavors. Everybody knew everybody and they often worked together. I've said from the very beginning that I only want to find the history of this car, not write it. I can't help where the trail is leading. If you don't like the path this research is taking, prove who DID build it and put an end to it. But I assure you, the more research you do, the more you will find yourself looking in the same direction I am.
What was the first car to have a merged door to fender bodyline?
in General Discussion
Posted
The 34 Airflow still had a protruding fender...