Guest Packardsforever Posted January 17, 2006 Share Posted January 17, 2006 O.K. I have good spark on all 8 plugs, I have fuel. If you were me what would be your next step? Oh yeah, the battery is charged and good also and when I turn the ingition it turns good but no start, its close. Maybe a bad coil, distributor, what about cable from battery to starter? Just trying to decide my next step, remember this car ran fine when I put it up 3 1/2 months ago. Thanks guys or gals. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Packard8 Posted January 17, 2006 Share Posted January 17, 2006 Sounds like a timing problem?..you have fuel, compression and spark, but the spark isn?t arriving at the right time. Turn the engine over until #1 cyl is at top dead center (take the plug out and hold you thumb over the hole?you will feel the compression) and make sure the timing mark on the front pulley is also on TDC. Now take the distributor cap off and confirm that the rotor is pointing to the #1 plug wire. If it is not, then maybe the timing chain has jumped a tooth or the distributor may be worn to the point of delivering the spark too late or early?????????? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Packardsforever Posted January 17, 2006 Share Posted January 17, 2006 Located in Bellevue Tn. 15 miles west of Nashville. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
WCraigH Posted January 17, 2006 Share Posted January 17, 2006 <div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Quote:</div><div class="ubbcode-body">O.K. I have good spark on all 8 plugs, I have fuel. If you were me what would be your next step? (snip) </div></div>I had the same problem with my 1976 Firebird 400 last month. If the timing is close and a spritz of "starter fluid" down the carb doesn't do it, then change spark plugs. That was my 'Bird's problem. The plugs were gapped OK, but were black and wet. Even cleaning them up didn't work. Oh yeah, the old plugs were Champions and the new ones are AC. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest imported_Speedster Posted January 17, 2006 Share Posted January 17, 2006 Craig, Did you determine WHY the plugs kept it from starting? Were they made wrong or something? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Albert Posted January 17, 2006 Share Posted January 17, 2006 I have had problems getting my patrician to start after i have had the head off, and have resorted to using a 12v battery just for the starter and coil, and once its run for 5 min it starts off the 6v. My clipper special had been sitting 2years, and it was causing me a lot of greef as the motor was rebuilt, and did run great after the rebuild, BUt after i drove it into the back yard it just would not restart, it would cough, run for a few sec but always die. Finally since i got this new 54 from the us last week, and it would run, i moved a few things over, the last thing i did was change the distributer, The original one i was getting a good 1/4" spark out of, but figured ill try anything now, stuck in the other distributer and mover the wires over from the autolight to the delco cap. I did not even bolt it down, just the vaccuum line held it in place and it started right up, unless i have a bad condensor in the old one or something is breaking down at higher speeds, i still have to look into it more. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
WCraigH Posted January 17, 2006 Share Posted January 17, 2006 <div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Quote:</div><div class="ubbcode-body"> Craig, Did you determine WHY the plugs kept it from starting? (snip) </div></div>No. Buying new plugs and installing them was the very LAST thing I tried. Previously, I changed HEI components, an entire HEI distributor, another (known good) QJet carb, compression test, checked all valve train components, etc., etc.So, by the time I got to the plugs, I was so disgusted with it, that I just threw the plugs in the trash! <img src="http://forums.aaca.org/images/graemlins/frown.gif" alt="" /> Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Clipper47 Posted January 17, 2006 Share Posted January 17, 2006 I've had two bad experiences with Champion plugs. I was always a Champion buyer since thye are made in my home town of Windsor but they are the only plugs that I have ever had that simply failed. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest imported_PackardV8 Posted January 18, 2006 Share Posted January 18, 2006 It sat for 3 months???? Remove plugs, squirt engine oil in each cylinder, replace plugs. Start it up. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Packardsforever Posted January 18, 2006 Share Posted January 18, 2006 I haven't looked yet but is there a mark on the pulley for sure? And is it the pulley for the fan belt? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Albert Posted January 18, 2006 Share Posted January 18, 2006 The timing marks are on the Crankshaft pulley, you will need to clean the pulley to find them (sand paper/wirebrush from under the car). The pulley is marked from TDC to about 15BTDC. If you mark the pulley at the 6deg mark, then line it up to the pointer on the timing chain cover, the distributer points should just start to open and the rotor should point to the #1 or the #8 spark plug lead Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest imported_Speedster Posted January 18, 2006 Share Posted January 18, 2006 You will need to mark over the timing-marks. White chalk will work temporarily, if there is no grease, but it would be best to clean them and use white paint, so you will be able to see them with a timing-light. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Albert Posted January 18, 2006 Share Posted January 18, 2006 I have a bottle of white nail polish that I use for the timing marks. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest imported_Speedster Posted January 18, 2006 Share Posted January 18, 2006 I was going to ask if that was your nail-polish, but I'm sure you wouldn't use white on your nails. That would be too '80s. <img src="http://forums.aaca.org/images/graemlins/wink.gif" alt="" /> <img src="http://forums.aaca.org/images/graemlins/grin.gif" alt="" /> Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Packardsforever Posted January 18, 2006 Share Posted January 18, 2006 O.K. I located the mark on the Crankshaft pulley and it is already marked on the 6 mark. Where is the pointer on the timing chain cover to line it up located? I assume you line it up by turning ingnition until you get lined up? Do I still need to also take out plug #1 and get it top dead center? Does that just mean until you feel the compression on your thumb and you see it all the way to the top? Lastly does this all have to be lined up just right meaning: #6 mark lined up with pointer on timing chain cover, #1 cylinder all the way to the top? And this all happens by turning engine over until you hit right? You guys must really be patient to deal with me, it is fun though working out your own problems. THANKS! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Packardsforever Posted January 18, 2006 Share Posted January 18, 2006 O.K. guys lets hear it, I have time tonight to ork on it so I am wainting for your expert opinions. Thanks! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Albert Posted January 18, 2006 Share Posted January 18, 2006 The pointer is between the generator and the water pump, just above the crank pully. You do not have to worry about #1 being on the compression stroke, If #1 is not on the compression stroke #8 will be, the rotor should be pointed at #1 or #8 wire on the cap. You have to turn the bottom crank pully to get the timing mark to line up with the pully, turning the motor clockwise. You may be able to do this by turning the fan blade while keeeping the belt tight with the other hand. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Packardsforever Posted January 19, 2006 Share Posted January 19, 2006 O.K. I got the mark on the Crankshaft lined up with the pointer and then took the distributor cap off and it looked like it was pointing to the #1 plug wire. Now I have never even looked inside a distributor so I emphasize "I think". So does this mean the timing and distributor are good? What about the coil? Oh yeah I have already put new plugs in last week. Whats next, Let me have it I'll do it. And Albert I did turn the fan blade while holding the belt clockwise and worked just fine. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Albert Posted January 19, 2006 Share Posted January 19, 2006 The points should be just starting to open at this point, if it is everything should be fine as far as the timing, at least to get it started and no need to adjust the timing yet. Iif you have a multimeter with a continuty beeper you could disconnect the wire between the distributer & coil, now connect one end of the meter to the distributer, and the other end to a good ground, it should stop beeping just around the 6deg mark. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Packardsforever Posted January 19, 2006 Share Posted January 19, 2006 Sorry Albert no multimeter here. Any other suggestions? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Packardsforever Posted January 19, 2006 Share Posted January 19, 2006 Well, I cranked her and cranked her for about 5 minutes and it just will not start. It really is turning pretty strong and seems quick enough, but she just want hit. Man, I am frustrated but not giving up. Just waiting to see what you experts say is my next move. Thanks again. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest imported_PackardV8 Posted January 19, 2006 Share Posted January 19, 2006 Use a test lite. they are cheap or u can make one. Connect one lead of the test lite to the POINTS side of coil and the other end to ground. When the lite comes on that will be equal to the (stopped ) beep that Albert explained. No need to disconnect wires with this method. The lite comes on when the points open. The lite will be off when the points are closed. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest imported_PackardV8 Posted January 19, 2006 Share Posted January 19, 2006 Whats wrong. U didn't like the idea of squirting oil in the cylinders and start it???? Too simple or too easy to do or something????? I'm not sure why we r chequeing timing anyway. U SAID the car ran fine 3.5 months ago when u parked and now it won't start. HAVE U TRIED THE OIL in cylinders or maybe starting fluid??? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest imported_PackardV8 Posted January 19, 2006 Share Posted January 19, 2006 Car sat for 3.5 months. FILE THE POINTS!!!!! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Packardsforever Posted January 19, 2006 Share Posted January 19, 2006 O.K. I get the point, I will let it soak overnight with the plugs out right? Remember I have said numerous times I am not experienced with the mchanics so filing the points is not something I know how to do. But thanks for the advice and kep it coming if you hav more. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest imported_PackardV8 Posted January 19, 2006 Share Posted January 19, 2006 Don't let it soak over nite. Squirt 2 or 3 good shots of oil in the cylinders. About a teaspoon full in each. DO NOT FILL THEM!!!!!! Then try to start the car with in a few minutes or sooner of squirting in oil and replacing plugs. The idea here is to seal the rings and valves with some oil to help increase compression. I'm guessing that engine has bad compression. USe a very small file to file the points. Points files are CHEAP and avilable at auto parts stores. Open the points and insert the file and file them just enuf to remove any oxidation that mite have built up over the 3 monts it sat. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
55PackardGuy Posted January 19, 2006 Share Posted January 19, 2006 Here's a fuelish question: How long has the gas been in there? Was the tank full when you parked it? Reason I ask the last question is, you can get a lot of condensation in a partially filled tank, with resulting rust, sludge, or just plain water in the gas.Maybe the bad-gas issue was covered earlier, but I don't remember seeing it. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest imported_PackardV8 Posted January 19, 2006 Share Posted January 19, 2006 I also need to correct my previous post about the test lite. so re-read it in a few minutes. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Packardsforever Posted January 19, 2006 Share Posted January 19, 2006 I guess filing the points is my next step. I oiled the cylinders and tried to start it and it just would not. I did use about 2 or 3 teaspoons in each cylinder and might have waited too long to start it, about 15 minutes. I guss I am learning as I go. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest imported_PackardV8 Posted January 19, 2006 Share Posted January 19, 2006 10 or 15 minutes is ok. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Packardsforever Posted January 19, 2006 Share Posted January 19, 2006 The tank is about half full and was so when I parked it for the winter. Is this as bad as I think it is? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest imported_PackardV8 Posted January 19, 2006 Share Posted January 19, 2006 if u want to try some real fine sandpaper on the points go ahead. Fold the sand paper over so that it is gritty on both exposed sides. Open the points and stick it in. Work it back and forth a few times. A SAMLL file is preferable. after u u use the sand paper take a paper match stick and run that thru the points contacts like a file to clean out any sandpaper grit that mite be left over.The idea wit hthe oil and the points filing is to do the ez stuff first and eliminate those possibilites. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest imported_PackardV8 Posted January 19, 2006 Share Posted January 19, 2006 If filing (sandpapering) the points doesn't work then replace the condensor. OR, u can try just hanging another condensor on the distributor side of the coil as long as the body of the condesor is grounded good. If that doesn't work then replace the condensor completely. Are u sure its getting gas????? pour about a table spoon full of gas down the carb and then try to start it. **** D A N G E R *** DO NOT POUR GAS WHILE CRANKING ENGINE!!!! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
55PackardGuy Posted January 19, 2006 Share Posted January 19, 2006 <div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Quote:</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Is this as bad as I think it is?</div></div> Not necessarily bad. It's just that in a no-fire condition when it's "getting gas" the quality of the gas needs to be considered. If your tank has a drain plug, you can drain out a sample and see what you get. There's often a lot of accumulated crud in an old tank. Or, you can do the filler-pipe sniff test. If it smells "sour" or rancid, it's probably way past its prime. One old trick for starting a car that has old gas in the tank is to run a line from a can of fresh gas to the inlet side of the fuel pump, so you know exactly what's going into the engine. But do a little investigating and/or simply top off the tank with new gas before you resort to that. Did you try a squirt of starter fluid as suggested earlier? If it fires on that, I'd get very suspicious of the gas that's in it.As mentioned, be very careful not to crank the engine when putting gas or starter fluid in the carb throat. It's best to replace the air cleaner/filter before you try it, too, as you can get a nice flash of flame back through the carb. It's nothing to be afraid of, just take precautions. I always keep an extinguisher handy. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest imported_PackardV8 Posted January 19, 2006 Share Posted January 19, 2006 With the ignition OFF! use a good lite source and look directly down and inside the carb. Reach ove rwith one hand and move the accelerator linkage back and forth. U should see a strong shot of gas squirt each time u open the throttle. If not then u have fuel delivery problems. If its a 4 bbl carb then u should see TWO shots of gas squirting. Actualy, u ought to be able to hear the squirts as long as you are with in 3 or 4 feet of the carb with aircleaner removed.. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Packardsforever Posted January 19, 2006 Share Posted January 19, 2006 I do have fuel and it is a 4 brl. I have seen it shooting out the 2 little jets. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Randy Berger Posted January 19, 2006 Share Posted January 19, 2006 You should be able to buy a points file at autoparts store for $.50 or a buck. We had a problem starting an Ariel motorcycle one year. We even towed the damn thing. In desperation we filed the points - it fired right up. The points had oxidized in about five months. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Packardsforever Posted January 20, 2006 Share Posted January 20, 2006 O.K. dumb question #15 I am going to file the points when I get home this afternoon. So, what should the points look like if they are bad and or good? For that matter I have only looked in the distributor to see where the rotor was pointing once and don't really know what the points look like. Simply put: where exactly are they and what do they look like? I am really am learning ever so slowly but its probably hard to tell by questions like these. Thanks! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
55PackardGuy Posted January 20, 2006 Share Posted January 20, 2006 Here's where a picture is worth several thousand words. Look for one in your service manual, it'll show you what the points look like. You do not need to remove them to file the contacts. With ignition turned OFF, it's easiest to file the points when they are "closed" as the spring tension will hold the file nicely in alignment between them and provide enough pressure against the file to let it do its work. You'll have to open the points manually enough to get the file between the two little round metal disks that are the actual contact points. Just use your fingers to pull the moveable side back (only one arm of the assembly moves, the one with the little block that runs against the cam lobes in the very center of the distributor). Insert the file between the contact points and let the arm spring back. It should hold the file gently in place. Leaving the file FLAT in its natural position, slowly slide it back and forth a few times. No need to get aggressive, you don't want to "file them down" but just clean them.Sometimes cleaning up the points with a file works "magic" and really improves the spark and the engine starts and runs fine again. However, you stated earlier that you have "good spark on all eight plugs" which leads me to believe that, if the timing is close to correct, you should at least get the engine to fire. The situation you describe sounds a bit more like a fuel problem. But knowing how to clean up your points is a good thing in itself. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Packardsforever Posted January 20, 2006 Share Posted January 20, 2006 Here are some pictures - please respond with specific advice - it is much appreciated! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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