WILLYS58 Posted December 28, 2004 Share Posted December 28, 2004 have a 1927 chrysler c60. blew the head gasket i believe last night. lost compression in 1cyl. the plug was oil fouled. pulled drained the oil pan and found antifreeze in the oil pan. prior to this engine was running normal no high water temp.have a few questions.1. do the valves when open extend into the head? if so does any one have the valve clearance specs. and how to adjust (special tooling required?)2. how about dist. timming? it has a manaul spark adv. on the wheel. but, what about the rest?really would appreciate some in put. the wife just bought the car on e-bay. and we have only been able to drive it about 30 miles.regardschuck Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest De Soto Frank Posted December 29, 2004 Share Posted December 29, 2004 Cannot offer specs as to valve clearance, but DO NOT OPERTATE ENGINE until head gasket has been replaced and oiling system thoroughly flushed.Ethylene glycol antifreezes "eat" bearing material ! ( Includes; Rods, Mains, and Cam bearings )I own a 1960 Chrysler Windsor whose engine bearings were "wiped-out" because of coolant contamination of the oiling system (failed head gasket; previous owner was "blissfully oblivious".).Since your Chrysler uses "poured" bearings, a bearing job is a lot more involved ( and expensive) than with my RB-383 V-8...As a guess as to spark timing, with the spark lever set at mid-point, the spark should probably be occuring at Top Dead Center.Good luck! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
WILLYS58 Posted December 29, 2004 Author Share Posted December 29, 2004 thank you very much for the info. sounds like it could be deadly!!!hope we caught it in time. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest De Soto Frank Posted December 29, 2004 Share Posted December 29, 2004 If not "deadly", at least very expensive !I too was not aware of the issue with anti-freeze and bearing material until my experience with the '60 Chrysler, which happens to have an engine that was used in model years 1959 & 1960 only... Good luck with your "60" ! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
HarryJ Posted December 31, 2004 Share Posted December 31, 2004 WILLYS58....I think one of the first questions you should ask is, why did the head gasket blow? Sounds like this car hasn't been driven much in recent years. I agree with Desoto Frank, don't operate the engine until you drop the pan, remove the head, and clean out the inside paying attention to the oil galleries in the crank and block. Most engines of this vintage were operated with old style nondetergent oil for most of their working days; the results of which leave a black sludge coating the interior of the block surfaces. Pay attention if the sludge is present, because if you operate it with modern detergent oil or use the old mechanic's trick of running it with a mixture of oil and kerosene you could cause a sludge clump to dislodge and basically result in a stroke at one of the bearings, which could lead to failure if it does not dissolve in time. As for valve setting, I would get a copy of the owner's manual from the Chrysler Historical Collection. They are not very expensive and will answer almost all of your engine mechanical questions. Valve adjustment on one of these Chrysler flat head sixes only requires two open end wrenches (one for the lock nut and one for the tappet bolt) and a feeler guage. The tappets are easily accessable by removable covers on the right side of the engine. According to the owner's manual for my '28 series "72" the clearance for the exhaust should be .006" and the intake .004" when the engine is warm. As to distributor timing; the breaker points (both sets on a "72") should be set at .022" with the manual spark control lever set in the fully advanced position. My "72" has a 1/8" pipe plug in the head above #6 which allows guaging the position of No.6 piston when adjusting timing. The position varies slightly according to the head the car was equiped with (red head/silver dome). Again, a copy of the owner's manual would be most helpful with the proceedures and settings. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
WILLYS58 Posted December 31, 2004 Author Share Posted December 31, 2004 thanks for the info. unknown reason on why head blew. moto meter looked fine, no high rpms, but was smoking slightly. external leak head to block of cooling system. other than that the car ran well. in regards to owners manual i will contact to get a manual of my own, hopefully. would also like to have the build sheet for her.in regards to cleaning oil galleys. what do you recommend? thinking of pressurizing gasoline or diesel and injecting through head.again, many thanks for all of your valuable information. all of our cars seem to have there own personality and quirks. never a dull moment with the fleet. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
HarryJ Posted December 31, 2004 Share Posted December 31, 2004 WILLYS58......Check to see where the head gasket blew, this can be done by observing the surface of the block and head. There may be a telltale pattern indicating where the leak was occuring. Check for flatness of the head and block in this area using a good straight edge and check for broken or stretched head studs. Sometime in the past the car may have been allowed to overheat causing the head to warp. If this is the case, a good engine shop should be able to mill it flat again. DO NOT USE GASOLINE to clean with! This is dangerous stuff. Use kerosene or mineral spirits and be very careful about sparks or open flames. The oil galleries lead away from the oil pump. If you can pump some mineral spirits through these it should clean out the old oil residue and any traces of the antifreeze. I would perform this task with the head and oil pan off the car. Pour some oil in the open cylinders and turn the crank over slowly while you are performing this task. Chrysler does not have any build sheets for these production automobiles. You can tell from the serial number whether it was built in the US or Canada and guestimate about when during the production run it was built. If the car ran well when you tested it the timing , point setting, and valve timing should be correct. By the way this is what appears to be a well maintained original and a candidate for HPOF. If you get it adjusted properly this car should be able to out perform many cars of it's day. Pay special attention to the external contracting hydraulic brakes; as if these have been standing for a while moisture may have accumulated in the brake fluid. When operating up to spec these are superior units; however, when driving in the rain make note the linings are exposed to the water and may not function as quickly as when dry. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
HarryJ Posted December 31, 2004 Share Posted December 31, 2004 P.S. I would also lube the car from one end to the other just for good measure. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
WILLYS58 Posted January 1, 2005 Author Share Posted January 1, 2005 harry do you want to come to oregon? understand the danger of gas. thought minerl spirits would leave a residue on the parts. will order new oil pan gasket mon. what is hpof? as you can tell were new to this old of a vehicle. the brakes seem to work fairly well. i try to drive her at least once a week. she did at first have no or little brakes. but, now stops fairly well and pulls only slightly.again thanks for the input.hope you and yours have a very happy and prospeous new year.chuck and debbie schaeferthe carnuts Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
HarryJ Posted January 1, 2005 Share Posted January 1, 2005 WILLYS58....Yes, I would very much like to see Oregon some day. Are you a member of the AACA? HPOF is a designated historic preservation catagory the AACA has for automobiles at their shows. From the picture your car seems to be well preserved including the green and black colors. If you can, please post some more photos of your car including interior and engine shots. Do you know the history of the car? Sounds like you are loosening up the brake mechanism with driving it; although I would suggest a drop or two of oil on the mechanical linkages associated with the system. Your car probably came with an oil can as original equipment, check on the engine splash pan on the left side of the motor and see if there is a small sheet metal plate with a spring attached. This is where the oil can was mounted. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
WILLYS58 Posted January 12, 2005 Author Share Posted January 12, 2005 HARRY GOT THE OIL PAN OFF THE OTHER DAY WHAT A MESS. GOT IT CLEANED OUT. PULLED THE HEAD LAST NIGHT FOUND THAT THE CENTER BOLT BETWEEN #2 AND #3 CYL. WAS LOOSER THAN THE REST. AFTER PULLING THE HEAD FOUND THAT THE GASKET WAS BROKEN BETWEEN2 AND 3.TAKING THE HEAD TO A MCHINE SHOP TONIGHT TO CHECK FOR STRAIGHTNESS.WILL START CLEANING THE TOP END OF THE BLOCK. I'M WONDERING ABOUT THE BOTTOM END. TEMPTED TO PULL THE OIL PUMP AND TRYING TO SHOOT SOME SOLVENT IN THE OIL GALLEYS. HOWEVER, THIS SOUND A BIT DIFFICULT IF I CAN'T GET ENOUGH PRESSURE TO CLEAN ALL THE GALLEY. ANY IDEAS?DID FIND A GREAT SOURCE FOR PARTS COLLECTORS AUTO UP IN CANADA LOOKS LIKE THEY HAVE JUST ABOUT ANYTHING.REGARDSCHUCK Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
HarryJ Posted January 13, 2005 Share Posted January 13, 2005 WILLYS58....Sounds like you have the upper end pretty well analyzed and under control. What kind of mess did you find in the lower end? I don't have any great ideas as to how to flush out the oil galleries. I would plastiguage a rod or two to determine if they are within specs. If the mess you describe is bad enough it most likely extends into the oil galleries, requiring some cleaning. I would solicit the aid of one or more lower engine experts in your area to give their opinion. The extreme case would be to remove the crank itself and clean it outside the motor. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest De Soto Frank Posted January 13, 2005 Share Posted January 13, 2005 This is a little messy, but should work...get a small (2.5 gallon) garden sprayer from your local home center, and remove the spray nozzle and connect a rubber fuel line hose in its place...Run the hose to the where the outlet from the oil pump goes to the oil galleries...Fill the sprayer tank with kerosene, pump it up and pull the trigger...the ideal result would be that the kero travels through all the oil galleries and flushes the anti-freeze and goo out...Probably the very best thing to do would be to pull the radiator and hood, and tear the engien down to the point where you can remove the camshaft too, as these bearings are babbit-lined as well, and any residual coolant left in these bearings will wipe them out as well...At this point, you should also be able remove any oil gallery plugs from the front of the block and run brushes down through to clean-out the goo...gun cleaning brushes or rods ands rags would probably work. You could follow that up with the kerosene sprayer and compressed air...At this point, I think you might be best served to do a little more tear-down now so that you can do a complete cleaning, rather than leave something behind that eat the engine within a couple thousand (or even hundred) miles of touring.If you pull rod and main bearings, please make careful note as to where the respective caps came from, which way they were installed (relative to the camshaft side of the engine), and what shims went where...Good luck! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
WILLYS58 Posted January 14, 2005 Author Share Posted January 14, 2005 frankdam i guess you're rigth i was hoping for the easy fix. the head was warped they had to mill.025 to straighten it out will start on the top end tomorrow, and the bottom end when it gets above freezing.chuck & deb the carnuts Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest De Soto Frank Posted January 14, 2005 Share Posted January 14, 2005 I feel your pain... But, on the flip side, having to pull the whole engine and send it somewhere for a babbit-job would be less- easy and way more expensive...I think it's worth the misery now to try and clean-it out and perhaps get lucky ! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
HarryJ Posted January 15, 2005 Share Posted January 15, 2005 WILLYS58......Let me warn you, taking the pistons out of a Chrysler of this vintage is not advisable in my opinion as these cars are equiped with dyked rings and I don't think you can get replacements. I really like DesotoFrank's system for cleaning out the oil galleries. If there is not a ridge in the top of the cylinders; I would opt to clean it up real good, check it out, and drive it. If you take the pistons out I would replace them. You can plastiguage the lower end with the engine still in the car and without removing the pistons. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Steve29 Posted February 27, 2005 Share Posted February 27, 2005 I have a 29 Chrysler and was reading this with great interest. What are dyked rings and why can't the pistons with dyked rings be removed and reinstalled? Thanks Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
HarryJ Posted February 28, 2005 Share Posted February 28, 2005 Steve29.....Dyked rings have an "L" shaped cross section to them. The base of the "L"'s butt up against each other over a lower ridge in the piston between the ring grooves, thus forming a wider ring surface contacting the cylinder wall. I don't like to disturb seated rings as I feel this flexing upon removal and reinstallation could lead to ring failure especially on older rings. I said dyked rings are no longer available; however, I could be wrong about this. Since the piston grooves are machined to accommodate the "L" shaped rings; modern rectangular rings would not work as replacements; this would require the replacement of pistons and rings. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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