RO Posted July 9, 2004 Share Posted July 9, 2004 Opinions solicited: Just acquired a '57 Hudson with the power brake Treadlevac unit and it was rebuilt by a reputable rebuilder in '99 (same one used for my Packards). Problem is the brakes will stop on a dime, as they say, the first 5 or 6 times (very strong and very touchy) and then as you drive along and start braking, they seem ok until approaching coming to a full stop where they fade way down to near the floorboard and I have to really stand on them. The car would barely hold a small hill with me standing on the pedal. Do not yet know that status of the brake shoes, but the master cylinder is full and fluid clean with no leaks on any wheel cylinders. On the return from the short drive, I really had to ride the brakes to pull the car in the garage. Cannot dicscern any vacuum leaks. We thought we had found the problem in a pinched vacuum hose at the T/V unit, but we replaced about a foot of the hose (with a thick-walled 1/2" heater hose and pipe) and no longer have a kink in the line. That obviously did little if anything to correct the problem. This unit, unlike the Packard unit, has TWO vacuum lines, one leads to an air inlet filter installed in the floorboard of the car under the seat and the other of course goes to the engine manifold vacuum with a Tee to a small vacuum storage tank. The distance I drove (less than 2 miles) and the speeds (less than 35 mph)I would not think could have cause the shoes to heat up and fade and there is no discernable smell. Any ideas? Excellent brakes to begin with, then unresponsive after a few applications. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Albert Posted July 9, 2004 Share Posted July 9, 2004 If the break pedal is getting lower to the floor the more you drive, i would recheck the wheel cylinders for leaks (pull back the rubber dust covers )as well as a stuck piston which can cause a shoe to drag and overheat the brake fluid ( push the pistons in with a screw driver and they should slid in with a little pressure and back out on there own). May also be the master cylinder, the check valve in the top may not be sealing properly when the brakes are applied. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest imported_PackardV8 Posted July 9, 2004 Share Posted July 9, 2004 diagnosis procedure: take the car for another test drive. When the pedal tries to go to the floor then PUMP the pedal rather rapidly to see if it builds back up to accomodate a good halt of the car. IF this procedure works then there is air in the lines. Try bleeding each wheel cylinder first. Just crack them once or twice. if no air issues from the wheel cylinders then BLEED AT THE MC line connection(s). IF there are any leaks relative to the problem u describe above then there should be clear evidenence of fluid dripping on the floor or ground. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RO Posted July 9, 2004 Author Share Posted July 9, 2004 This was suggested on the HET site: "Make sure the one way valve is working on the vac. feed into the vac can." I will have to look at that; I don't recall on a valve on the Packard vacuum tanks, but maybe there is one? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RO Posted July 10, 2004 Author Share Posted July 10, 2004 Thanks guys. I hope to get back on it maybe later this weekend; heading over to a 900+ car event in the '55 Clipper Super this morning, then this evening a club event in the Patrician, so today is full. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RO Posted July 11, 2004 Author Share Posted July 11, 2004 Test drive today confirmed air not in the system and I jacked the front end of the car up and turned the wheels and they seem to have the right amount of drag. Really strange, though because I can be going along at 35-40, apply the brakes, and they immediately slow the car down. It's just the last little portion where standing on the pedal has little effect. So, we're destined to tear down the system and see if we can find the culprit. Front hoses have plenty of grease and crud buildup so they've been on there awhile and I suspect the wheel cylinders as well. Going to purge the fluid all out and replace with clean brake fluid and hopefully all that will remedy the situation. Of course we haven't looked at the shoes yet either. This particular car has an additional brake hose I can just barely see from topside going down to somewhere near the fron tof the master cylinder and we'll probably replace that with a solid line. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest imported_PackardV8 Posted July 12, 2004 Share Posted July 12, 2004 Randy. Double check the manual to see if there is somekind of actuating rod adjustment for the power unit. Sounds to me like the MC plunger is bottoming out or there is lost travel or not enuf travel in the actuating (push rod) of the power unit. I do not have a manual here with me and cannot remeber if there is a rod adjustment procedure outlined in the manual. I think there is such a procedure.Sometimes the rubber hoses will deteriorate INSIDE and a piece of rubber will act as a kind of pressure valve. Open under lite pressure but plug up under heavy pressure or rapid fluid movement. Before tearing into the entire system try replacing the rubber hoses first. Use the brake shoe adjusting procedure outlined in the manual. ****** REMEMBER this is NOT a split system. SO, if the rear shoes are way loose (out of adjustment) then it will cause a very low pedal running out of travel DESPITE the fact that the fronts are adjusted properly yea visa-versa yea side to side even.*********** Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest imported_PackardV8 Posted July 12, 2004 Share Posted July 12, 2004 u mite try another test run with the parking brake pulled out just enuf for a slight drag on the rear wheels. Guess at it. Mite have to pump pedal once or twice to build fluid in the rear cyclinders. take it for a test run to see if it improves. If it improves then the rear shoes are out of adjustment. Probably just alot easier to adjust them rather than trying the test run. The procedure in the manual rambles on about adjusting the parking brake before adjusting the rears. If the parking brake has a lot of travel in it don't worry about the procedure to adjust parking brake. Just glide under there and adjust the rear shoes. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RO Posted July 12, 2004 Author Share Posted July 12, 2004 Keith, the parking brake did not hold at all; when I went to adjust the cable underneath, the rod busted so I will have to find another eyebolt for that. The rod was already a little bent, but a couple turns of the nut broke it off. I do not have a manual for the car as yet; on order through the HET club store. I'll try to to determine if there is a rod adjustment that can be made; don't know. But that is a good idea, to just chnage out the hoses first as I have some of those in stock. Thanks. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RO Posted July 12, 2004 Author Share Posted July 12, 2004 OK, I checked the brake freeplay and it seemed a little excessive so I crawled under the car I did find an adjustable rod, a very long rod with two threaded 9/16" nuts on either side of a "barrel." I was able to loossen the nut closest to the T/V boot and easily moved it 2-3 threads or so. Then tightned the outside nut a few turns to take up the gap, although I had to Kroil the outside bit to even get it to turn. Was very hard to keep the rubber boot from turning and twisting. But that adjustment seems to have decreased the freeplay to right about 1/4' (going by the Packard manual, but remember this is not a Packard). No test drive this evening because the rains are about. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RO Posted July 16, 2004 Author Share Posted July 16, 2004 Test drive tonight, brakes continue to diminish after the car is driven a mile or two and 15-20 applications of the brake pedal. We shut the engine down and tried the brakes and the mechanical seem fine. We got back to the garage and pulled the valve that is located JUST at the manifold vacuum intake and found a rubbery gooey substance in the valve. We pulled it out. It appeared to hav ebeen tapered at one time but now just a 1/2" long piece of spongy rubber with no kind of spring(s) in sight. For now we have replaced the valve piece but now it is just a straight flow-thru. Initial application of the brakes cause the engine to idle up just for a second but not significantly. Will try to test drive tomorrow evening or over the weekend. Hopefull this will cure the brake problem. Easy thing to overlook. I'm real curious WHY any kind of rubber type valve would have been located where there is engine heat. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RO Posted July 16, 2004 Author Share Posted July 16, 2004 BH, the valve on this car is at the front of the engine rather than behind the carburetor, but hopefully this will prove to have been the problem. As you mentioned, it isn't real obvious...just looks like a regular fitting for a hose. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Randy Berger Posted July 16, 2004 Share Posted July 16, 2004 RO, can you post a picture of this valve as it's positioned on the intake? I'm having a tough time picturing this in my mind. Did Hudson modify the Packard intake to fit a valve in there? Motor's Manual is no help as they just say "see Packard chapter for service". Thanks in advance.YFAM, Randy Berger Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RO Posted July 16, 2004 Author Share Posted July 16, 2004 Can do tonight, Randy. Remember, in '57 the Hudson has the new AMC 327 cubic inch 255 horsepower engine. Rather than behind the carb., the manifold vacuum is picked up from the front of the engine right out of the engine. The valve fits onto a threaded pipe that looks similar to a PCV valve of the 60s. I'll post a photo tonight. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RO Posted July 16, 2004 Author Share Posted July 16, 2004 schematic, photo later. Test drive just now and the brake pedal feels a lot different; is not real touch to begin with. Just went a mile or two, but it seems ok now. Longer test drive over the weekend. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RO Posted July 16, 2004 Author Share Posted July 16, 2004 Two photos, here's the first. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RO Posted July 16, 2004 Author Share Posted July 16, 2004 Closeup Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RO Posted July 16, 2004 Author Share Posted July 16, 2004 This is very similar to the Packard set up except Hudson moved the vacuum input to the front of the 327 engine. I had a Packard valve from a parts car and it does not contain any rubber-like substance; all I can discern is some sort of round washer type thing....maybe the top or bottom of a spring......will try to look closer tonight. This one off the Packards parts car "may" be functional, but have not verified it yet. I suppose the test is to blow through both ends and the air should only go one way. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RO Posted July 16, 2004 Author Share Posted July 16, 2004 Well, that confirms what I found as "the valve" but no spring or washer in sight. This was very easy to remove from the car. I know the previous owner of 25 years and am pretty sure he never had the valve off the car. Without knowing what the spring and washer look like, I cannot say what might have happened to them....sucked up into the manifold I suppose, which, obviously should have been designed to prevent that. I remember seeing the washer in the one from my Packard parts car, but didn't see a spring; I'll look closer tonight. Now, I'm trying to understand the actual function of this little valve now that I have it just as an inline flow-thru fitting now. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RO Posted July 17, 2004 Author Share Posted July 17, 2004 OK, I examined the valve off my parts car and as you say, it has a spring holding a rubber type valve. The spring appears to be held in place with a little metal strip across the center of the valve as viewed from the inlet side. On the outlet side it just appears as a rubber type insert that is movable with a small screwdriver. The "rubber valve" appears to be a tapered type design. On this '57 Hudson, there was no spring and no washer and no little cross hatch to contain the washer. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RO Posted August 7, 2004 Author Share Posted August 7, 2004 BRAKE SYSTEM UPDATE! We discovered that the manifold vacuum source valve was not the problem with hill creep. We STILL have hill creep. We replaced all four wheel cylinders, all 4 wheels brake shoes, all rubber hoses, and new lines AND had the Treadlevac rebuilt. The brakes will stop you anytime on a dime, but try to hold the car on a hill with the brake pedal depressed and after 5-10 seonds the car will creep forward downhill without any change in the brake pedal. I am totally out of ideas! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest imported_PackardV8 Posted August 7, 2004 Share Posted August 7, 2004 so if u press the pedal harder will it stop creeping????? Meaning that if u tried it long enuf and continualy pressed the pedal harder and harder to stop each sucessive creep u would eventualy run out of pedal????IF this is the case and there is no sign of leakage then it could only be one thing: The MC reservoir valve is bad and allowing the pressurized fluid to creep back into the reservoir. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RO Posted August 7, 2004 Author Share Posted August 7, 2004 Keith, I come to a full stop and then push the pedal down to hold the car but with 5-10 seconds it starts to roll and I'm standing on the pedal. This T/V I got back from Ed Strain is a different unit than I sent him, but totally rebuilt. FYI, the fellow I acquired this car from said this problem started occurring back in the ~ '98-99 timeframe; he sent the T/V off and had it rebuilt but the problem persisted. So this is the THIRD unit since the T/V you get back is not youre rebuilt, but one off the shelf as the number on the end is different and I had marked mine.Later today or tomorrow I plan to place the car on a hill, shut the engine down and hold the brakes and see what happend. If it holds, then I'll drive it around awhile and try the same thing and see what happens. It "seems" to be something that starts occurring over time, but I'll confirm that. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RO Posted August 7, 2004 Author Share Posted August 7, 2004 Any chance if engine compression is down, like one cylinder or valve bad that this could have an effect on the vacuum supply to the system. I'd think this unlikely, but I've run out of ideas. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
WCraigH Posted August 7, 2004 Share Posted August 7, 2004 <div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Quote:</div><div class="ubbcode-body">(snip) ...but I've run out of ideas. </div></div>Replace the T-V with a modern unit like I, Paul, Keith or Tim did (all different solutions) and be done with it. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RO Posted August 7, 2004 Author Share Posted August 7, 2004 Well, I use only DOT-3. Unfortunately the parking brake forward cable attached to the handle is shreaded/wrapped in an inner tube and we found out last night virtually useless. On my way to a car show, but will get back on this later this evening and/or tomorrow and at least try turing the engine off and seeing if the brakes will hold. FYI, I just saw a posting on a Hudson forum site that soemone else has this same identical problem on their '54 with the power brakes. That is a good data point but not sure what to do with it yet. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest imported_PackardV8 Posted August 7, 2004 Share Posted August 7, 2004 when you're standing on the brake pedal does it go down and eventualy to the floor???? AGAIN, check for the TV rod and pedal sdjustment routine in the manual. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RO Posted August 7, 2004 Author Share Posted August 7, 2004 Pedal never makes it to the floor. The rod and pedal are adjusted within the spc. of ~ 1/4" free play. Did not get a chance today to do any further tests other than to verify the aircleaner mounted in the floorboard is clean, clear, and flows air. On this unit, the airfilter is not mounted directly on the T/V, but under the seat. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RO Posted August 9, 2004 Author Share Posted August 9, 2004 I did one more thing in that I pulled the floor-mounted air filter off and tried to examine it as best I could. It is a sealed unit with some sort of coarse steel wool type filtering material in it. Unable to disassemble it, I tested it by blowing compressed air through it and it flowed both directions. I reinstalled the filter on the car and replaced the hose clamp with one a size smaller and tightened it down good. I took a test drive with the purpose being to turn the engine off on a hill and see how well the mechanical-only brakes would hold, initially before the car was driven far and warmed up and then after a drive. Initially the brakes held just fine with no creep down the hill whatsoever. I proceeded then to drive further and with more brake applications than anytime previously. I repeatedly stopped on hills and held the brake pedal down and the car never creeped forward this time. I might mention, too, that, I have the idle on the car set up to about 700-750 RPM which would create a tendency for the car to move forward. Since on this outing the car never creeped forward with power on, I did not bother to test it without the car running.In summary, the only thing that was ?different? in this last test drive was the pulling off of the air cleaner, blowing compressed air through it and replacing the hose clamp. Perhaps the hose clamp, but it is doubtful. But now I ponder this input I received on the forum ?I'm also assuming that since you've replaced all the shoes, you've done a sufficient number of stops to "seat" the linings to the drums.? Now this could very well explain the problem relative to a new brake system, but how does it explain the problem occurrence with the old brake shoes? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RO Posted August 10, 2004 Author Share Posted August 10, 2004 Brian, I believe your rationale is right on; brake shoes needed seating which took a few applications and then a cumulative set of "aggravations." On another note, I was able to repair the under-the-car rear end of the front brake cable by using a double eyebolt ended turnbuckle. Now should any creep ever occur again, I have a backup. Of course this car does have a Park, but it's not all that easy to get into it sometimes and I would not want to do that while moving. Thanks for the suggestions. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Karlel Posted August 17, 2004 Share Posted August 17, 2004 Something totally different.I took apart my Packard treadle vac. The service manual says: pull out the master cylinder piston and seal parts as a unit (after removing the piston cup washer retaining ring; see page 12 Easamatic power brake of the service manual). I can't get the unit out of the master cylinder. Do I have to use more force?Charles Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest imported_PackardV8 Posted August 18, 2004 Share Posted August 18, 2004 i do not have my manual handy right now but if i remember rite u must also remove the reservoir feed valve. Remove the reservoir COVER. Once the reservoir is opened up u will see a valve about the size of a dime that screws out. Remove it and see if that will let the ram ("piston") comeout. I assume u can move the ram back and forth and that it is not siezed tite. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Karlel Posted August 18, 2004 Share Posted August 18, 2004 Let there be no mistake. I removed:1. the rubber seal2. the snap retaining ring, behind the rubber seal (with a pair of pliers)3. the valve between the reservoir and the actual piston/fluid spaceI can see the piston move back and forthBy the way, I removed everything removable, including the big hex outlet Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Karlel Posted August 18, 2004 Share Posted August 18, 2004 Don't bother anymore. I put the master cylinder behind a vice, Took a 1/9" thick piece of steel sheet metal with a U shaped hole on top that matches the notch of the piston at the end, put the sheet metal in the vice, used two very old tire levers of 15" long and pushed the master cylinder away from the vice. Very much force was needed but the unit came out in the end. I've been sweating blood, sweat and tears. At a certain moment I thought I'd break the master cylinder in pieces. Can you imagine?Thanks anyway. You convinced me it was the only way.Charles Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Karlel Posted August 19, 2004 Share Posted August 19, 2004 The assembly manual for the Treadle vac refers to 2 lubricants:1 for the big leather vacuum cup, the inner wall of the vacuum shell + cotton wick: Bendix vacuum cylinder oiland2 for the valve sleeve: lubriplateAre there any substitutes for these lubricants? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest imported_PackardV8 Posted August 20, 2004 Share Posted August 20, 2004 Lubriplate is still available (or was 3 or 4 years ago) from any GM dealer. Use it SPARINGLY. IT IS THE finest grease available for ANY application (not sure about disk brake wheel bearings tho its probably good there too, i forgot.)As for the vacuum chamber oil just use any Air conditioner compressor oil, or mineral oil should be ok. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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