Tom M Posted July 13, 2004 Author Share Posted July 13, 2004 PackardV8,It does charge. As I stated in above post when I hold the contact closed. My concern is that the generator is very hot to the touch and I don?t think that is not right. I did have it apart the other day and found some of the old covering for the wires inside very brittle or even missing in spots so I re-taped them with vinyl electrical tape which I see know I probably should of used the cloth type since the generator gets very hot.You came up with and Idea I was thinking of also by putting in a switch to toggle the charging on and off until I could find a new relay but the hotness of that generator scares me. So that is why I am just going to bite the bullet and it take into a shop (once I get more info on one) and have them rebuild it. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Albert Posted July 13, 2004 Share Posted July 13, 2004 Heat shrink tubing works good for covering up missing insulation, but you could also have shorted turns in the windings (needs a growler) or shorts to ground you can use a meter or better yet a megger, they use to use a 110 volt lamp and two leads for checking for shorts. The Dykes manual shows the testing for the 3 brush system as well as the setting.. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest JT Posted July 14, 2004 Share Posted July 14, 2004 Your problem now might very well only be the relay, but given the problems you can see with the generator I would have it professionally rebuilt and be done with it. Hopefully you have a generator shop close by that is still familiar with the old stuff (I am lucky enough to have 2 shops in town with old timers that are) and can put it back in good shape. Also check all your wiring to make sure the insulation is in good condition. Among other causes, an intermittent short or bad connection could cause the points of the relay to fuse together. The last thing you want is an electrical fire. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tom M Posted July 14, 2004 Author Share Posted July 14, 2004 Hello JT,Most of the wiring loom is new. I did find the wire that came back from the amp meter to the battery broken. It looked like the brake cable moved the wire back and forth which made it break at the connector.I do have a few shops I got references on. I talk to a individual last night (I got his name from on here) and he gave me a name of a shop he used that did the started and generator on his Caddy. I will give them a call sometime today. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Pierce66 Posted July 14, 2004 Share Posted July 14, 2004 WARNING - PLEASE ! Do NOT "force" a generator to make the "appearance" of putting out electricity, by forcibly closing the "cut out" points by hand ! If there isn't enough VOLTAGE coming out of the generator to close these points, then there IS a failure in the system, and what you are doing is DANGEROUS ! Of COURSE, as you said in your "post", you feel the generator getting hot to the touch when you do this - because you are turning it into a "resistance heater", which is an excellant way to start a fire !You are on the right track in trying to find EXPERT assitance ! Good luck - let us know how this all turns out !Dog Spot Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tom M Posted July 14, 2004 Author Share Posted July 14, 2004 Dog Spot,The generator was hot to the touch even before I went to hold the relay contact closed.YES I will let you all know the outcome. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tom M Posted July 16, 2004 Author Share Posted July 16, 2004 ALL,When I went to go drop the generator off today the guy goes I see you have a Packard Generator there I just rebuilt a few of them in the last year.For the relay he showed me one he had just rebuilt using a resistor in the original housing. I read somewhere but can't remember where I read it of people rebuilding the relays that way. Is that the correct term I used and the way to go out rebuilding the relay? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest JT Posted July 16, 2004 Share Posted July 16, 2004 Tom, is he converting the relay to electronic? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Pierce66 Posted July 17, 2004 Share Posted July 17, 2004 Sounds like our boy came to the right shop ! I see no reason not to convert the mechanical "cut out" relay to an electronic one. Hopefully, this shop has an original case to put it into. You might ask him if it would be possible to re-wire it so that the third wire could be run out into a "modern" (meaning post 1935) regulator system - I hear these are now available in solid state units, hopefully smnall enough to be hidden inside the original "cut out" relay case.That would result in enough generator power to keep your battery charged even under night driving conditions, AND would also be easier on the generator, because it would no longer be delivering all the power it is capable of, all the time, nor would you have to worry about "cooking" your battery on long day-light trips ( a common problem back before 1935 / "modern" current and voltage regulation). WOOF Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tom M Posted July 17, 2004 Author Share Posted July 17, 2004 JT,I just called the shop and they are changing the relay over with a one-way diode. Does this mean it is electronic?Pierce,I am leaving the third brush the way it is for now. Don't want to cause any more Headaches with this. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Pierce66 Posted July 17, 2004 Share Posted July 17, 2004 Given the kind of driving most of us do with our collector cars, "third brush" type generators are not likely to be a problem if you go ahead with your plan to leave it the way it is.The problem is that they are UNREGULATED, meaning, YOU control the output by sliding the "third brush" around so its relative position on the armature changes. You can set it for a "low rate of charge", which will avoid "cooking" the battery (and keeing the generator from running hot), but then extensive night driving will leave you with a low battery after a while. OR you can set the third brush up for a high charging rate, which, during day-time driving, without the "load" of the headlights, will eventually over-heat the generator, and "cook" the battery from over-charging.The so called "electronic" conversion of your "cut out" relay should work well for you, bearing in mind all it does, is "close the points" when the generator voltage comes up above battery plate voltage. Sounds like you have run across a competent electrical shop. If you decide to have them change the "third brush" type generator over to a "regulated" type, you would have LESS potential trouble, rather than more.Bottom line - getting COMPETENT help is the best way to insure we can enjoy our collector cars to the fullest.Barrels of congradulatory "woofs" from Dog Spot ! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tom M Posted July 17, 2004 Author Share Posted July 17, 2004 Pierce66,Thanks for the information. I don't do much driving at night so I have no need of setting the charging rate any higher then what the manual states. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tom M Posted July 26, 2004 Author Share Posted July 26, 2004 Picked up generator on Saturday and reinstalled it. Fired up old Bessie and she is charging once again. I had to make some adjustments to the charging rate because the amp meter was reading around 30 amps. I turned it down to about 10 amps at cruising speed of 40 mph. According to the manual it should be 18 amps at 1300 rpms, 12 amps at 4000 rpms.Should I bump it up to what the manual states or shall I leave well enough alone? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Pierce66 Posted July 26, 2004 Share Posted July 26, 2004 What can you tell us about what was done to your generator ? Were the field coils re-wound ? Armature re-wound ? Modern materials will be MUCH better able to handle higher temperatures, meaning you can run with a higher charging rate than originally contemplated.Any good-sized electronics store should carry an inexpensive voltmeter. You already have an ammeter built into your car, which may or not be EXACTLY accurate - but dosnt matter. To accurately monitor the "health" of your generator, you need to know the VOLTAGE your generator is putting into the system. Assuming a given amperage, the higher the voltage, the 1) faster your batter will charge BUT 2) the quicker you will come to that point at which the battery will be OVER-charged and start "gassing" or bubbling out its acid solution.Here's what I would do. I would set that third brush to just a bit above "factory", and then monitor it - to see how fast the battery starts to get warm to the touch, how hot the generator gets (should get quite warm after a half hour or so of charging, but NOT too hot to touch ). And I'd be watching to see the voltage wasnt up beyond, say 7.5.Sounds like a lot of trouble ? Well...now you know why the industry went to external current and voltage regulation ! You have to be a bit more "involved" in the operation of older cars, than the newer ones, where more is done for you automatically. In the old days, people often ran with their lights on during the day on long trips, to prevent over-charging.Dog Spot Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tom M Posted July 26, 2004 Author Share Posted July 26, 2004 Pierce66You askedWere the field coils re-wound ? YESArmature re-wound ? YesI will have to get out to an electronic store and pickup a voltmeter so I can chek the voltage.Thanks for the feedback. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Pierce66 Posted July 27, 2004 Share Posted July 27, 2004 Will be interesting to see what kind of power you get out of that thing now, what with BOTH your armature and field coils being re-wound. Should be MUCH more durabile with modern insulation; hopefully, the voltage wont be TOO high. If the voltage is much above 7.8, I would suggest you have them re-wire it to take a modern (meaning post 1935) full VOLTAGE AND AMPERAGE regulation.If it is LESS than about 7.8 volts, only thing left for you to do is determine how much CURRENT (meaning AMPERAGE) you want, that is both consistent with your driving habits (obviously, for night driving you'd want more amps, but you'd have to leave your lights on during EXTENDED day-time driving to avoid over-charging), or a lower setting if you are just doing mostly day driving.SPOT Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest imported_PackardV8 Posted July 27, 2004 Share Posted July 27, 2004 someone wrote:"...To accurately monitor the "health" of your generator, you need to know the VOLTAGE your generator is putting into the system. Assuming a given amperage, the higher..." WRONG!The faster the generator spins the higher the voltage produced regardless of the load placed on the generator. Most generators, even old 6 volters will produce AT LEAST as much as 60 volts if left unregulated by either bypassing the regulator or cutout.The bottom line is to have the generator producing enuf current to keep the battery charged without boiling it. THis is a function of the AMPERAGE! The test/adjustment needs be done using an ammeter. Set the 3rd brush to produce enuf current to show a 1 to 5 amp gain on the ammeter relative to expected driving conditions.There is a procedure to set the generator charging rate INDEPENDENT (i.e. bypassing) of the regulator/cutout and the Packard manual should detail it.And one more thing. SOME people in this thread are continually barking about regulator vs cuTout. Yes there is a difference and a regulator is more efficient but the end result is the same. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tom M Posted July 27, 2004 Author Share Posted July 27, 2004 I have posted this once before. Here is a clip of setting the generator. Generator Settings Guess I somewhat answered my own q's with this. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Pierce66 Posted July 27, 2004 Share Posted July 27, 2004 For Packard V-8:Your information is correct as to the era of generator you are familiar with. Suggest you review maintainence manuals from the era this fellow's car is from.Dog Spot Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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