31Charging and AMP Gauge

[Tom M]

The other day when I took Old Bessie out the Amp gauge would read +7 after a she warmed up or when I would Rev the Engine at a stop light. I took her out for a ride last night and notice the AMP gauge stayed at 0. But when I turn on headlights it would drop down to -8 or so. When I got back home I took the back cover off the Generator and turn the adjustment screw clockwise to see if it made any difference. It didn't until I took her out for another spin and then the Amp Gauge jump past 10 Amps. I stop right away and turned the screw counterclockwise some because I know that was way too much of a charging rate. Got back into car and now it just stays at 0 again.

Questions:

Is the Generator Going?

Is it a bad Battery Charge Regulator (this is what it?s called in a service letter I received)?

[Tom M]

Brian,

Thanks for the reply.

This may sound dumb but is the regulator the gold box thing that is mounted on the side of generator housing.

Can I spray contact cleaner on the brushes to clean them up?

[Guest Albert]

It may also be an idea to hook up a volt meter across the battery for testing and take it on another drive, its normal for the generator to put out a high charge (+20A) right after just starting the motor, as long as the battery voltage is not (7.2 or there abouts, check the book on the settings) exceeded while it is being charged or the maximum charge rate of the battery. Also normally the generator outputs where inceased somewhat in the colder weather to deal with the batterys being colder and not taking a charge as easy.

[Guest Randy Berger]

Tom, take the generator and regulator to a good electrical shop. They will be able to diagnose and resolve the problem. The generator on my 56 was charging way too high and I took it over to the guy I trust. I was fairly certain it was the regulator, but he determined that a field winding must have grounded effectively bypassing the regulator which was trying to limit the gen output but had no control over the faulty generator. I installed my spare and am waiting for shop to call and tell me it's done and the damages. It is nice to have a spare gen <img src="http://www.aaca.org/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/grin.gif" alt="" />

YFAM, Randy Berger

[Tom M]

Al,

Thanks for the suggestions. I will need to go out and buy myself a volt meter. Any tips on what is a good brand?

[Tom M]

Randy,

Thanks for your suggestions also. I am not as lucky as you I don't have a spare Generator to install.

Anyone in that lives in the Chicago Area have a preferred Electrical Shop?

[Tom M]

Brian,

Thanks for the tips.

See attached picture of an engine compartment (it is not of my engine compartment thou I wish mine looked that pretty). In the lower right of picture you can see the generator. Is that the regulator? The rectangular gold/copper looking box on the side of the generator.

[Guest JT]

Yes that's the current limit relay.

[Tom M]

JT,

Thanks

All,

Thanks again for comments and suggestion. I will hopefully attempt to pull generator off this weekend to clean up brushes etc.

How do I go about testing the limit relay?

[Ed Miller]

Here's my two cents worth of advice...Don't take the regulator along with the generator to an electrical shop because a 1931 Packard doesn't have a regulator. You have what my 1933 Packard (and 1932 Cadillac) have, viz.: a cut out. I'm not a mechanic, but my understanding is that it works almost like an on/off switch. It's either charging or it isn't. When the headlights are on it will almost always discharge or at best it will sit at 0. At almost all other times, other than at idle,it will show a robust charge. I've driven both automobiles thousands of miles and haven't cooked a battery yet. Good luck.

[Guest Albert]

For a voltmeter you can just use a regular multimeter with some longer wires added to get to the battery, even if you have to tape a magnet on the bottom so it will stick to the dash

[Guest JT]

The cutout will allow the battery to charge when the generator speed is sufficient to produce voltage higher than the battery. When the generator output is less than battery voltage the cutout contacts open to prevent battery discharge. Ed's right that it functions as an on/off switch but it does have a cut in and a cut out voltage adjustment. You might want to open it up and have a look at the contacts to see if there're burned or pitted.

[Tom M]

Hello All,

The other day when I had the cover off the back of the generator I could see blue sparks and at that same time the Amp Gauge would have a + reading. With all the great advice from you all it seems I may have some dirty contacts/brushes since the charging is sporadic.

For the limit relay if my memory serves me right I think it is a sealed unit. Is that a correct statement?

[Ed Miller]

JT, "I'm right.!!!" Can I now claim to be a certified mechanic? Just kidding...but it is nice to hear that I'm right about something mechanical. My wife warns me that anytime I try to fix something on my cars I wind up breaking two more things...and she's right!

[Guest imported_Speedster]

My '29 626 has the same type charging circuit. It has a cutout relay and a 3-brush type generator. (Later models used a regulator and a 2-brush generator.)

When mine is charging it reads about 10.amps on dash meter. At first I thought that was too much current but the battery doesn't get hot and it stays charged so I didn't worry about it.

[Guest JT]

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Quote:</div><div class="ubbcode-body">My wife warns me that anytime I try to fix something on my cars I wind up breaking two more things...and she's right! </div></div>

Ed, I think that's just the mushroom effect and a part of old cars, at least that's my experience <img src="http://www.aaca.org/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" />

[Tom M]

All,

Pulled the generator off yesterday and found a rubber gourmet in the housing where wire that goes to the limit relay rotted. Put some silicone in the hole so the wire would not ground out. I also clean up the brushed which had a lot of crude on them.

Reinstalled the generator today fired up the car and now when I rev engine I get 8-10 amps. When I turned on the headlamps it drops down to around 0 amps.

What would we do if we didn't Internet friends like you all. Thanks for all your help.

[Guest JT]

Hi Tom, glad you got it working. Nice to find something fairly easy and cheap to fix.<img src="http://www.aaca.org/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/grin.gif" alt="" /> Did you happen to notice if the cutout relay had a name on it or is it part of the dyneto generator? just curious.

[Tom M]

JT,

No I didn't notice the name of the cutout relay. If you like I can pull it off and see if it can find a name on it for you.

B.H.

When it comes to body work look out I'am not the best at it, but mechanical let me at it any day. Grease, Grime O YA.....

I am 39 years young (LOL) and learned a lot when I worked at my stepfather's garage but never really worked on a cars as old as what I have now.

My father left me the Packard so I want to keep her running as long as I can.

[Tom M]

Generator wows again. Yesterday I wash the car and the engine bay (dummy me never learn) and could not get car started to wet I guess plus on top of it all it started to rain down pour. Once the rain stopped I had my brother come by to see if we call pull start her a no go? So we got it into the driveway were now the battery was worn down from cranking earlier. I put charger on for about and hour and she started up got her back into garage for the night. This morning I waxed her all up (for a car show) went to go hook up battery, negative cable first then when I went to go hook up the positive cable I got a spark which I never got before. I thought maybe I had the lights on or fuel pump but neither was on. I touched the Positive cable to post again and I can hear a little hum from the generator. So I disconnect the wire mark to battery from the cutout relay and no more sparks and was able to get car started.

Did I short out the generator from when I wash the engine bay down?

[Guest Albert]

sounds like one of the relays has stuck in the regulator and is causing the generator to become a motor. try removing the coveroff the regulator an pressing the relays to see if on has stuck.

[Tom M]

So you think there is some water left somewhere causing a grounding situation?

No more spraying/washing engine bay down anymore for me.

[Tom M]

Albert,

In the above post they stated I have a cutout relay and it is a sealed unit. I have it sitting here as I type no way of opening it up.

JT,

There is a number on the bottom side of the cutout relay in blue print 0372. No name of the maker on it at all just the number.

I just went back out to car to check again with the cutout off. I held the two wires together that connect to the cutout then hooked up the battery and same thing still sparks.

Do you all think I need to take generator off again and clean it out or do I have a short somewhere else?

[Tom M]

I pulled the generator today and took it apart and found some bare wires inside. Cleaned them up and

re-taped. I also clean the brushes again. Put it all back together hook wire to the battery terminal on the cutout relay before I install it back in car no sparks but wait once I installed it back on the engine I got the dreaded sparking again. Did some searching/checking of wires to find the wire that comes back from the amp meter to the positive side of battery broken and touching the frame. Did not have any connectors that size so off to Hardware Store and wouldn?t you know it on the way there the Truck temp hit H. Stuck thermostat so now off to the Parts store for thermostat. Got home open hood of truck and boy what a pain to change that stat. You need hands like a baby to get at some of the bolts. Give me that Packard to work on any day. Okay now back to the Packard. Put new connector on broken wire hook (by the way battery is disconnect at this time) it all back up. Went to connect battery same thing getting a spark. I disconnect the wire from the cutout relay hook up battery and started car. Went back and hooked up the wire to relay and then checked amp meter I get a reading +7-8 amps when raising the RPM. Let off gas and it goes down to 0. Once I shut her down the amp gauge buries to ?30+. So I jump out and disconnect the battery ASAP. Sorry for be so long winded but I like to get this figured out so I can take the car to a Charity Show on July 25.

I think now I may have a bad cutout relay what do you all think?

Any leads where I can get one?

Thanks

[Guest Albert]

Try connecting a light bulb in series with the ungrounded terminal of the battery ( this will limit the current to a safe level) then disconnect the Bat wire on the regulator and see if the light goes out, if not tape that one up and try the feed to the headlights, and what ever else untill the light goes out. Do you have a clock? as that can also cause a draw when you frist hook up the battery. You can also try disconnecting each circuit to eleminate the current draw and narrow down the problem, check for chafing through the rubber groments and wire hold downs.

[Pierce66]

Albert - PLEASE...stop confusing the poor guy by using the term "regulator". Assuming the charging system in pre '35 Packards is of the "original" type..THERE IS NO REGULATOR. As Ed Miller notes, it is simply a "cut out" relay, that closes when the charging voltage is up, opens when the generator slows down to the point it is producing less than battery voltage.

From his description, this guy may have several problems INSIDE the generator, including, but not limited to shorted field coils, bad armature, as well as possibly having "fried" the cut-out relay. Just getting all that stuff wet probably is un-related to his troubles.

Incidentally, when they are working properly, you can set the "third brush" on them so they produce upwards of 15 amps, which should be enough, assuming standard bulbs, to "keep ahead" of the drain for night driving. Gawd..think about it..how spoiled we are with today's alternators - typical car today produces well over 60 amps at 12 volts...which would be 120 amps at 6 volts!

Sorry, I dont know the Chicago area as it is today - but this is a job for someone who understands these now obsolete systems.

Dog Spot

[Tom M]

The charging system is original Pre '35.

I hook the battery up the cutout relay makes a click/hum noise. So my guess is my relay probably got fried maybe when we attempted to pull start the car the other day. If the relay was bad stuck opened or closed would that make the amp meter drop to the discharge mode and also drain the battery?

[Pierce66]

Packin - wish I could do a better job of helping you - but from a distance, not much I can do. I STRONGLY recommend you find an automotive electrical shop that actually WORKS on electrical equipment (rather than just "change out" units..which is pretty much the rule today).

I can't tell much from your discussions. Even if there was NOTHING wrong with either your generator, or your cut-out, if you were to take the cover off the cut-out, and physcially close the "contacts" with your hands, your ammeter would show "discharge", since the battery voltage would be trying to turn your generator into a motor!

Remember, your generator drive is what aligns the timing chain - dont try and turn over your motor with the generator off !

Best of luck - wish I could be of more help !

Dog Spot

[Tom M]

Pierce66,

Thanks for your reply. The relay is a crimped so I will try and see tonight if I can open it up and see if the contacts are stuck.

I just made a call to a Auto Parts store my when stepfather used for years when he owned his Service Station. The owner gave me a name and number of a shop in Lyons Illinois. Guess I will pull Generator off tonight and drop off later this week.

[Pierce66]

The original "cut out" was NOT sealed or crimped. Probably replaced in the late 50's, when "crimped" electrical control boxes (assuming my memory is correct) first started to appear.

Good luck

Dog Spot

[Tom M]

Thanks for the reply's. I will keep you all inform of my progress on this. Hopefully I will get this resolved by July 25.

[Guest JT]

Tom, the stuck relay sounds like a good possibility. That would certainly cause a discharge situation with the motor off.

Pierce, do you happen to drive a 38 V12?

[Pierce66]

For JT:

Shhhhhhhhh !

[Tom M]

Well got home tonight from work pulled relay (attach is a pic of it) off and got cover off guess what the contacts were fuzzed together. Pried them apart and reinstalled with the cover off the relay. Yes no more sparks when attaching battery. Took car for a 15-mile ride but amp gauge never got above 0. Got home and found that the relay never closed to charge. I had my lovely wife sit in car while I brought RPMS up and holding contacts closed see said the amp meter went up to around 7amps so I was getting a charge. Looks like I have a bad relay.

Another question while I had my hand near the generator I touched the housing and it was very hot to the touch should it be?

[Tom M]

Another picture sorry for poor quality it a cheap digital

[ChicagoPack]

I have a great guy for electrical engineering. He just repaired two clocks for me and is going to do my "wonderbar" also. Email me and I'll send you his address. I don't want to post it without his permission. <tfred@att.net> He's located in one of the northwest suburbs.

[Pierce66]

Hate to be the bearer of bad news - sounds to me BOTH the "cut out" relay AND your generator are gone. If your generator was producing more than the minimum VOLTS and the cut-out relay was all right, the points should have closed. Seven AMPS ? Nowhere near enough - my guess is either a bad armature, bad field coils, or BOTH.

Again - I am just making wild guesses without being there with test equipment. Again, strongly recommend you find a REAL generator guy who KNOWS the stuff from that era. Sorry I cant be of more help.

Dog Spot

[Tom M]

Pierce66,

That is what I figured. I just wanted some other humble opions before I had to take it off again. Heck at least it is not as hard to take off compare to that darn t-stat on the truck.

I will repost on the outcome after I choose a shop. Thanks to all for the help and info.

[Guest imported_PackardV8]

Before removing the generator test it yourself FIRST! There is a procedure for doing this and it should be covered in the manual or in a Motors Manual. It involves ELIMINATING the regulator or cutout from the system entirely. Depending on wheather it is a FIELD ground or armature ground generator depends on the process used. Its real simple to do and onlt requires an amp meter. In fact u can run a wire to the dash and use that as an interem manual cutout while test ing for a week or two. THIS MEANS that u can continue to drive the car while testing the generator under various conditions BUT must monitor the charging as u go and cut it in and out manualy by the switch as u go. Just guess at the amount of charge needed as u drive and flip the switch on or or off. Chances are the generator only needs brushes and bearings and maybe the commutator cut. THese are things that can be done by visual inspection.

If the fields or armature is bad then u will need a good shop capable of dealing with windings. FIRST run your own test to see exactly what the generator is doing or not doing.

Usualy (if a field ground gen) the process is to diconnect the wires from the regulator, ground the field wire of gen to gen frame, connect battery wire (that was on the reg) to the battery wire from the gen to the reg. CONSULT a manual for process because it depends on wheateher or not it is field ground or armature ground generator. OR find out if it is field or arm ground and let me know and i will outline the process. If i was there i could probably look at the gen and determine its ground side. But i'm not so u need to find out.

[Pierce66]

Packard V-8:

You weren't listening. Again, there IS NO REGULATOR circuit in Packards (and any other car, I presume) prior to 1935. Cars of his era had "THIRD BRUSH" type generators, that had NO regulation. NONE. Only, as Ed Miller put it, an "on off switch", or "generator cut out relay". This relay has only ONE function. When it receives voltage HIGHER than the battery plate voltage, it closes. The generator then charges at a given rate, depending on rpm and ambient temperature. A generator can be "bad", yet still show SOME out-put. In this fellow's case, he discovered that by physically closing the cut-out relay's points with his hand, he could see a "charge" indication on his ammeter. So what ! Obviously the cut-out relay wasnt sensing enough VOLTS to "close" its points. Eleven times out of ten, this is the classic symptom of a bad generator - however, given the other problems, the "cut out" relay is most likely gone too.

Obviously, some basic shop techniques (such as using a "growler" to check the armature, and meters to check the field coil) , are not that difficult for someone FAMILIAR with electrical systems. YOU may be technically competent to analyize and repair electrical generating and regulating equipment, but this fellow is the first to admit he is not.

So - again, let's encourage him to get COMPETENT help. This is NOT something for the so called "back yard mechanic". I will bet a chocolate chip cookie that there are enough of the old guys around, that SOMEWHRE near him is a shop that will KNOW what it is looking at, and fix him right up.

And a Cherry Good Morning from Cal Worthington's Dog Spot !