Armature versus field wire on 1934 Generator Owen Dyneto CO 1177

[34PackardRoadsta]

Dear All,

Because my gen is not correct, I am going back to the old voltage cut-out. The new voltage cut-out results in a huge (approx 20amp) draw when you hook up the battery. I am assuming the gen is trying to act like a motor. With the old cut-out this did not happen.

However, I am not certain that I have the correct wires for the armature and field windings. On this gen there are two wires coming out the top, in line. I have been calling the wire closest to the inspection band (furthest from the drive shaft/timing chain cover) the armature wire and the next one in line (closer to the drive shaft/timing chain cover) the field wire. Is this correct?

Thanks tons,

Tom

[Owen_Dyneto]

There should of course be NO draw when you hook it up. Sounds like the cutout has the points welded shut. Simple observations should confirm this. If you'd look at the wiring diagram for your car, you'd see the two wires coming from the generator are of different gauges, the larger one is the armature and the smaller one the field.

[Guest imported_Speedster]

The '29 3-brush Generators only have 1 wire, coming out of top (no terminals), which connects to the cutout. And the cutout gets it's ground connection thru the mounting screws.

Sounds like that may be a later non-adjustable generator, so a cutout relay will not work with it. I think it needs a 2 relay regulator, instead. Like used in the late '30s. Did some mid '30s ('34 thru '36) engines use that type gen, but with a regulator instead of a cutout? Or maybe an Aftermarket generator with the regulator Upgrade?

[Owen_Dyneto]

Tom, please go look at the wiring diagrams. If you don't have them, they are all on the PAC website. Your CO 1177 must have 2 wires coming from the case, as does the CD-895/896, the CL 1005/1033,CD 1130, CO 1240 and CO 1300. If you only have one lead coming from an 1177 generator, the other one has fallen thru inside or broken off. Pull brush cover and check. The CO 1177 (and other earlier and later Packards) used the Owen Dyneto 21262 charge regulator which is a combination relay and primitive regulator. Didn't I email you the service info on this a while back? If not, let me know.

[34PackardRoadsta]

Owen/Dave,

Yup, I have the service diagrams that you sent me. They are for the 1930 gen, but that is great, since I did not have those. I also downloaded the diagrams from packardinfo.com. Unfortunately, they do not tell me the physical placement of the field versus armature wires. I did not realize that I could see which was which by removing the inspection band. So, all is solved.

Rick,

The gen I have for my 30 IS NOT correct. It is a 34 generator (CO 1177), and has a field wire (amperage is controlled by voltage fed to the field). Essentially, this entire thread is because I screwed up and did not a) early on realize I had the wrong gen, and once I knew I had the wrong gen did not realize the consequences of such.

I am a bit irritated with myself for being such a doof. So, if we all ever get a chance to hang around a pint, please feel free to give me a light (ok ... very light) flogging.

As always, the help was much appreciated, and led to considerable personal enlightenment. Far better, and far cheaper, than a flight to California to get my Chaka-watchies tuned .

Cheers,

Tom

[Guest imported_Speedster]

Glad you figured out the wiring, but do you have a regulator that will work with that generator or do you think you can use a cutout? I'm still not clear on that?

I'm interested because I know very little about the gens used those years ('34 thru '36) and I know that sometime during those years Packard started experimenting with different regulators to eliminate the adjustable 3-brush generator.

[Owen_Dyneto]

Packard's first use of full voltage/current regulators (without 3 brush generators) was the 1935 "120" model, though the senior cars continued with 3-brush generators and the older style Owen Dyneto partial current control thru 1936. There are at least three useful sources of sorting out the various generator and regulator systems, (1) the Packard parts manuals, (2) the Standard Auto Electricians Manual, and (3) Chiltons Tune up Manuals. Some of the information conflicts here and there about the generator number, for example Packard offered a higher output "red label" generator in 1934 which is shown in the Packard parts book but not the other souces. In an attempt to clarify, let me summarize what these sources say:

All generators and generator controls are Owen-Dyneto except for the "120" data.

1926 1927 Six, Generator CG678, Control simple cutout

1926 1927 Eight, Generator CE 523, Control simple cutout

1928 Six, Generator CD 777, Control simple cutout

1928 Eight, Generator CL 800, Control simple cutout

1929 Eight, Generator CL 800, Control simple cutout

726-733-740-45,Gen CD840 or CL896, OD 20100 partial control

726-733-740-745, Gen CD865, OD 20200 partial control

826-833-840-845, Gen CL 896, OD 20200 partial control

901-02-03-04, Gen CL 1005, OD 21732 partial control

1001-1002

1003-1004, Gen CO 1130, OD 21262 partial control

1100 thru 1105, Gen CO 1177, OD 21262 partial control

some 1100-1105,

1200-thru 1205, Gen CO 1240, OD 21262

1935 120, GAR 4011, Full control TC4302A

1400-thru 02, Gen CO 1300, OD 40210 partial control

1936 "120", GBR 4601, Full control TC4302B

Partial current control refers to Owen Dyneto's charge regulator which combines a cutout with a thermostatic field current control, but not full current and voltage control as began with the Autolite equipment on the 1935 "120".

Hope this helps.

[Guest imported_Speedster]

Wow, Thanks Owen, for the Great Info.

I'll do a printout of that data.

So, if Tom's gen is actually a '34, then a Cutout will Not work? I'm not sure what 'Partial control' means (starting with the 726)? Is that a Cutout or Regulator, or possibly either one determined by generator used?

[Owen_Dyneto]

The OD unit I refer to as "partial control" is a combination of a cutout and a primitive thermostatic field current control, so consider it as a step between a simple cutout and a full feature generator regulator. It's used on 3-brush generators and is quite robust, the one in my 34 has been working for 90,000 miles with never a burp. Yet still, if I anticipate a lot of night driving I still turn up the 3rd brush a bit, and down a bit for all day driving in daylight -- the unit is sophisticated for it's time, but not what we became used to just a few years later.

[Guest imported_Speedster]

Okay, I think that's what I've always called a '2-relay Regulator'. Then later models (around '36 or '37) they started using the 3-Relay Regulator, which is the Full-regulator.

So, Tom needs to get a '2-relay Regulator', instead of the Cutout (with 1 relay), Correct?

To visibly identify a 2 relay Regulator, it's a large Square can, and I think they all have 3 terminals, but not sure about that. At least the ones I've seen are Square.

Then the 3-relay Regulator is an even Larger Rectangle shaped can.

[34PackardRoadsta]

Yup, I need to find the thermostatically controlled cut-out/regulator. Anybody have one? I have the correct cut-out/regulator for a CD840, but I don't yet have a CD840. The simple cut-out I installed works to prevent the battery from discharging into the gen when it is running at low speed, but the brush is set for a very low charging rate, so if I run around going real slow, my battery gets drained. I also cannot use the lights. The latter is currently (no pun intended) not a problem as the lights don't work! But I will need either the correct gen (I have one coming, but don't know its operating condition) or the correct regulator. I am not willing to up the charging current until I rectify this problem.

Anybody know where I might be able to find OD21262 generator regulator?

Tom

[Owen_Dyneto]

Tom, as I've mentioned to you before it was not exactly a secret that NAPA thru Echlin was continuing to make and supply a NORS OD 21262 until just a few months ago, and lot's of savy owners bought them and set them aside, in fact I know some folks who bought several for that purpose. I noted at Hershey last year that Max Merritt had a few in his booth - have you contacted him? How about Henry Yeska who use to repair these units and may have some available.

[Guest imported_Speedster]

Yeska's number is 610-759-0230, if you want to call him.

[34PackardRoadsta]

Ah, yes, I remember. I will call Henry and ask him. I need to call him about a different part anyway.

Tom

[Owen_Dyneto]

Speedster, you inquired about the appearance of what you call the "two relay" regulator and cutout. The cover of the OD 21262 is stamped steel, 2"W x 2-1/4"L x 2"depth, and held on by two slots in the cover on opposite sides at the bottom that accomodate screws in the base. At the base is a knurled brass thumbwheel that encloses and attaches the fuse. Below the base is a curved strap that matches the diameter and screws on the generator. It has two nuts on the underside to connect the armature and field wires, marked A and F. It has two contact tangs sticking out from the cover towards the fender marked "BAT" and "GEN". GEN is not used, just the BAT lead. Originally the cover was painted green with an Owen-Dyneto, Syracuse NY decal in gold, black and red.

The NAPA/Echlin VR 755 replacement is extremely similar except the cover is held on by the single nut in the center of the cover, and it only has a single contact tab sticking out, marked BAT. Same arrangement underneath and for the fuse.

[Guest imported_Speedster]

Thanks for the Great discription.

Now that I know what to look for, I'll go thru my box of regulators and see if I have any of those 'Valuable Items'. I don't remember any with A & F termainals under it, but I may.

[Guest imported_Speedster]

I did find one, model VR-97-H, made by P&D Manuf. that appears to be a Universal type with A & F terminals on both bottom and at sides, and the Bat terminal at side.

It has a replacable Fuse at the F terminal (under brass cap) and what appears to an external load resistor (to ground). (appears to be NOS, with screws still in a sealed bag)

The instruction sheet says it can be used with Any 3-brush gen, so does that mean I can use it to replace the Cutout on my '29 Generator, and improve the charging rate ??? Or is it only 3-brush gens after '29, since '30 seems to be some kind of change over date, according to Owen's data info, in post above ??? I realize it's not what was used originally in '29, but 'would it work' is my question?

See Pictures:

[Guest imported_Speedster]

I think I've answered my own question. I don't think it will work with the '29 Gen, since there's Only 1 wire coming from generator, (other than the Ground connection wire). Gens must be wired differently Internally.

So with the '29 Gen there's no way to connect both field and armature to this regulator, unless the gen can be modified some way, and I doubt that would be easy ???

Note: I did find a Guarantee card with the Regulator, saying it's guaranteed for 90 Days after Installation. I wonder if the Guarantee would Still be Good. LOL

From the looks of the box it was in, it was probably made during the '30s.

[Guest imported_PackardV8]

Maybe this has already been covered but there are TWO types of generators. FIELD grounded and armature grounded. Each require a different regulator.

Owen, just out curiosity, is Owen Dyneto your real name or just a screen name????

[Guest imported_Speedster]

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: PackardV8</div><div class="ubbcode-body">there are TWO types of generators. FIELD grounded and armature grounded. </div></div>

I had just rediscovered that. The '29 gen is the 'field ground' type and '30 must be when they went to the 'armature ground' type.

[34PackardRoadsta]

Sorry, but I don't get that. If the armature is grounded, versus the field, the flow of current through the gen will be the opposite direction, into the ground, and not into the battery. This seems odd. I think this would result in the generator polarity being forced to reverse; assuming you have a well charged battery to start with. What am I missing?

Tom

[Owen_Dyneto]

Sources show that 1930 was a mixed bag on generators, perhaps the conversion to external field control was a running change.

And in response to PackardV8, at the time I registered for this forum, primarily to participate in the Packard-related posts, there was an correspondent who seems to relish personal sniping and character assassination, so to avoid becoming a target I chose to use a screen name and just never taken the time to change it. Given my almost 50 year association with the earlier Packard classics, Owen Dyneto seemed a clever one, especially given the amount of time over the years that I've spent inside their starters, generators, and regulators.

[34PackardRoadsta]

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Owen_Dyneto</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Sources show that 1930 was a mixed bag on generators, perhaps the conversion to external field control was a running change.

</div></div>

Owen,

Ah, great . Now I can really puzzle over the right gen/regulator/cut-out to put in my 30! Seriously, which of the listed gens you have for the 733 should I be looking for, in your opinion.

Thanks tons,

Tom

[Guest imported_Speedster]

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: 34PackardRoadsta</div><div class="ubbcode-body"> If the armature is grounded, versus the field, the flow of current through the gen will be the opposite direction, into the ground, and not into the battery. </div></div>

Both the Field and the Armature have a positive and a negative side. The difference is the way the two get to chassis ground. The early gen has one side of the Field-winding grounded inside the gen case and the later version has one of the armature-brushes grounded to the case.

Since it seems to be only an internal wiring difference, I think one type could be modified to be the other type, but not sure about that. The internal Fuse may be problem, since I think one side of it connects to case, it may have to be eliminated and use an external fuse, when doing a conversion.

I Won't be converting Mine, tho! LOL

[Owen_Dyneto]

Here's the conflict. Despite an occasional error it's hard to argue with the Packard part manual, which says the 726-733 should have the CD 840 generator with 20100 current regulator. I have no familiarity with them and no internal diagrams to help.

Both Chilton's and the Standard Automotive Electrician's Manual says the 726-733 should have the CD 865 with the 20220 regulator which is of the so-called two stage type (cutout plus thermostatic field current control).

There appears to be nothing in the Seventh Series Service Letters which I've seen which clarifies this.

A few posts above, Speedster has what might be an after-market 2-stage current control such as would be used on the CD-865 up thus 1936 (except for the "120" model. That's about all the help I can be on this, sorry this isn't more.

[Guest imported_Speedster]

I'm starting to agree that was probably a mid-year change, or at least the change was After the '30 Packard-Parts-Manual went into Print, which was probably late '29.

[Owen_Dyneto]

Yeah, probably so though I'm suprised that it wasn't covered in the service letters. Another mid-year generator change, in 1934, was covered in service letters. That was a higher output generator and was differentiated by a red (rather than black) label, and if the car was equipped with Startix, it likewise required a new red label startix.

[Guest imported_Speedster]

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Owen_Dyneto</div><div class="ubbcode-body">I'm suprised that it wasn't covered in the service letters. </div></div>

We need to remember, that was about the time of the big 'Stockmarket Crash', so people probably weren't spending much time correcting things like that.

[Guest imported_Speedster]

I found a website with pictures of some of the Owen-Dyneto Starters, Generators and Regulators, used in '20s and '30s.

http://www.acewichita.com/12_OwenDyneto.htm

[Guest imported_PackardV8]

I've converted 2 or 3 generators to field ground or armature ground over the years successfuly. I only did it to make it match an AVAILABLE regulator at the time(6v, nos or nors).

Speedster. The regulator u pictured above is nearly identicle in every way to 48 thru 53 Indian Chief regulator. they were Autolite. The fuse is different in appearence and the Chief regulator has a terminal for idiot lite.

Go to Kiwiindian.com or Starklite.com for repops.

[Guest imported_Speedster]

Thanks for the Info.

It's interesting that they were Identical to Autolite Regulator, because while searching for Info on the Regulator, I found something about a Lawsuit against P&D, from Autolite, in 1935. So I guess Autolite thought they were too similar Also.

[Owen_Dyneto]

This has been an interesting thread. Let me add the generator max charging rates for a few years as given in Packard's "Standard Sizes and Adjustments":

6-7-8-9th series 9-11 amps

10-11th series 18 - 20 amps

12th series 24 - 27 amps

The rapid popularity of accessories, especially radios, no doubt was a major factor in the increased capacities. The 12th series generator capacity isn't that far removed from the capacity of generators in the 50s.

When I see 6-9th series cars with dual Pilot Rays, I just know they're just for show and never drive at night.