nsbrassnut
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Posts posted by nsbrassnut
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Hi Nate
Well that comparison shows it well. There a LOT more difference than I thought based on just the pictures. I didn't appreciate the size of the Dort gears vs T gears from the previous notes.
Back to the drawing board unfortunately.
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Hi All
First of all, yes, I have seen similar damage to brass cars when transported. It can and does happen easily if the dynamics of the car chassis are not understood and the tie downs are inappropriately applied.
I will add some comments at the risk of upsetting some. But having experienced damaged brass cars during transport I would like to pass along some notes in the hope that it may save someone else grief in the future.
These early brass cars are lightly built and mounted on very “springy” chassis and in nearly all cases have no shock absorbers.
I helped a friend trailer back a 1911 Buick roadster several years ago. It was a solid original with the engine out, but everything else bolted together as it left the factory. It was a two day 1000 mile trip. The first day was uneventful. The second day was over a rough highway and a lot of bumps. At the next rest stop and car check we found one of the rear spring mounts broken right off of the frame of the car. The car was strapped down by the axles as recommended by most trailering sites.
From what I can see of the some of the ties down straps, I am concerned about how it was tied down. Looping a strap through the front full elliptic springs and down to anchors is not the way to tie it down. The full elliptic springs move when flexing, the ends coming closer together when the body rides up, and farther apart when the body comes down. If there is tension on the strap here when starting out, the strap will alternately tighten and loosen as the frame moves up and down over the bumps. And a single strap pulls the two fronts of the springs together twisting the springs in their mountings. And the front axle should have radius rods mounted from the frame to the axle to keep the axle from moving too much. However, this also results in the axle moving in an arc when the spring flexes, moving forcing the frame to move front to back with bumps.
The rear axles is chain drive with radius rods to locate the axle as well. So, when the spring flex, the axle moves in an arc which also moves the frame fore and aft when moving up and down.
And it should be noted, that the way the radius rods are mounted, the axles move in opposite directions as the frame moves up and down. When the frame moves up, the front axle moves back and the rear axle moves forward. This can cause changing tension on the axles which can end up trying to pull them apart and off of the frame.
There is also a suggestion of a strap on the back which appears to go under the axle, then over the rear of the body then to the other side and under the under side of the axle then back. This is a poor way to strap a chassis that flexes a lot. Again, like the front axle, when moving up and down the axle moves front and back changing the tension on the straps and placing additional load on the spring mounts on the frame.
I see signs of blocking between the front axle and frame and if this is solid and strapped tightly so that there can be no movement between the axle and frame then this doesn’t matter as much. But only if the connection is solid and if the back axle is similarly solidly anchored between the frame and axle.
The best way, in my own opinion, to move this type of car is with wheel nets to hold the wheels in one place while allowing the springs and frame to closer to the way that they were designed to move when flexing. Second best is strapping the axles, with four straps, one per the end of each axle and cross pattern.
Also, a key issue with these early cars. They have NO SHOCKS and when they bounce, they will keep bouncing. Shocks help control the magnitude of the bounce and quickly slow the rebound to stop the bouncing. Without shocks the chassis and body will keep bouncing. And if you hit a harmonic vibration, the bouncing will continue to get worse until something breaks.
I have seen some people make up leather bounce limiting straps and put them on the axles. Mostly to help reduce the bounce when driving the car, but it also helps limit the bounce when in the trailer to prevent the chassis from bouncing up too high on a bump. Several wraps of bungy cord around each end of the axle to the frame to act as temporary shock absorbers is an option. I haven’t yet tried that one out.
If you have ridden in a T or other early brass car and think that they bounce hard at 30 mph when you hit a bump, just think of how hard they bounce in the trailer at 60 mph.
I have seen this happened with Ford Ts in the trailer. The floorboards and seat cushions have bounced out of place and around inside the car while it’s in the trailer. I now take them out when transporting my T to prevent damage.
And a friend nearly lost his T when a rear seat spring bounced out and came down on the accessory turn signal terminal board under the seat. The battery was connected and the seat spring shorted the terminal strip, the fuse didn’t work and set the upholstery on fire. Fortunately, that time it was on an open trailer and the fire was spotted in time to save the car, although it needed to be re-upholstered.
Its interesting to see that the masking tape appears to be unbroken. And if it is unbroken, then don’t blame the use of the tape on any of the issues.
This one is not the fault of the seller. Its up to the purchaser and transporter to decide if the car is in the condition for transportation and to pack it so that it can handle the road conditions during transport.
Trailer safe.
Drive safe.
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Hi All
Just a short update this time.
After waiting about 3 months I went back and gave the leather another application of Leathertique. It didn't take much to make a "wet coat". The first time it soaked in really fast. This time less soaked in, but the appearance has improved. For the most part the leather appearance has gone from flat black to a mostly satin black. The front and rear cushions and front seat back have softened up noticeably. The back of the back seat does look and feel better, but is still somewhat stiff compared to the rest of the interior.
But overall, some improvement in both appearance and texture. A before and after comparison below.
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What a mess.
But what an adventure to dig out and figure out.
Even if you just pass along the parts to help out another, it will have a good story to tell for a long time.
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Hi Marty
Start by saving everything, even the rotten broken bits. It will help if eventually you find someone with a similar Buick that can provide some reference pictures and information.
In the meantime, it helps to think like a paleontologist. Carefully strip out the wood bits that left, taking pictures and notes along the way. Then see if you can assemble the skeleton and fill in some of the missing pits with temporary parts made out of softwood to see how the bits go together. That can help to figure out how it goes together and provide some ideas on how to approach it. You may be able to glue or epoxy some of the rotten or broken bits together to help with figuring out the skeleton and to help with making patterns.
Most people will start with the body sill rails and build a foundation and then start to work back up. And it really helps to build right on the frame (or a spare) to provide a jig for building the body on. Or carefully measure the body mount locations on the frame and build a jig. I know a few who tried to build the wooden frame work without patterns or a jig, and the results were not good when it came time to place it on the frame.
Sometimes it can help to not clean or blast the metal body panels before building the wood frame. There can be witness marks in the old paint or even the old rust that can help show where missing wood sections belong and how some of them may fit together.
And start collecting clamps. Lots and lots of clamps. You will need them to hold bits in place while sorting out the fit and before you start to drill the screw and bolt holes. And be prepared to built a bit, fit a piece or two, then take it apart to finish a piece, reassemble, disassemble, reassemble, etc. etc. until it starts to work out.
Here are a few pictures of a messed up '13 Canadian Ford T body that I am working on. Someone else started to work on and replaced one sill and a few bits. And not on a jig either. And several parts are rotten and some are missing. What a mess. And this one is pre-assembly line and basically individually hand built. And in this case, not well designed or built either. Buicks are more complicated and more solid.
And part way through the puzzle and after filling in some of the missing bits.
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Here is another picture of a T spider gear. I know its not the one that you are interested in. But for more information.
Note, with the spider gears the teeth are cut on a cone so the width of the gear increases from the small end to the large end. This is a picture of what I measure for the root of the tooth on the small end of the gear. With the centre hole the same size, there is a chance that the gears are made on the same angle and tooth pitch. But it would take more measurements and a re-read of a gear design section to work out details of the gear tooth profile and pitch for yours.
Oh, and don't forget, the Canadian Gray Dort likely used the same axles and gears. But they are note overly common either unfortunately.
Hopefully you can find a set of originals that are usable for the Dort.
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Finally remembered to check the parts bins to see what T gears look like.
Almost, but not quite. Right number of teeth and bore size (0.750), but not as large a diameter. And only 0.750 thick.
Hmm, forgot to measure the gear tooth.
If you have access to a T gear it may be worth a second look. Less than ideal, but if nothing else pans out, perhaps an option with a modified mounting system. But a smaller gear might move the axles inward which wouldn't help.
Hmm, no easy answers yet.
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Here is what I have been using for a few years. I think I originally got the idea from here on the forum.
One is for cleaning, the other a sealer which leaves a shiny surface.
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Hi Nate
You are probably correct about T bits not working. But, the T axle gear actually has a shoulder on it that the differential case rides on. The shoulder is a sort of bearing surface for the differential casing and is on the "back side" of the gear. Maybe, a long stretch maybe, T gears might be adaptable, but only with new axle shafts and perhaps some regrinding of the shoulder on the T gear.
I'll try to get some pictures next time I'm near my T bits pile.
I hate square splines, especially the straight ones. Once they wear just a little, the part will never be tight again but will wobble a bit on the square spline, no matter how tight the retaining nut.
But in this case it sure would be easier to find some differential gears that would fit with only minor adaptation.
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I used to have a '12 Metz 4 cylinder. Different engine, but I suspect that the oiling design was similar.
Comments based on the 4 cylinder engine. But may apply to yours as well.
Metz uses a "pump - splash" lubrication system. The oil pump is intended to pump the oil up into the dipper troughs for the rods and main bearings and I think also the camshaft bearings. There is no check valve in the oil line (that I remember) and it isn't really necessary. Once the oil troughs for the bearings and rods are filled, the engine can run several seconds or a few minutes in pure "splash" mode while the pump picks up oil and starts to refill the reservoirs.
If the copper tube breaks or sucks air, then the oil will not get to the reservoirs and what oil is there will get splashed out and not enough just "falls in" to keep them full when its running. And a few miles later the engine will start to get damaged from a lack of lubrication.
The oil pump gears, tubing and other related parts are all listed in the Metz parts book.
The really weak part of the Metz design is a lack of any indication of whether the pump is pumping or not. Early pump splash usually ran the line to a sight glass on the dash to see the oil pumping then it drained back into the troughs. Later pump splash designs had an oil gauge on the dash, but the pressure range was only 2 to 4 psig. Just enough to show that the oil was being pumped.
Metz instead relied on the "I hope its pumping and splashing" theory of operation.
And in the 4 cylinder cars the pump drive gears are a weak point. Small and prone to wearing out. I found only one good set of gears in the three engines that came with my '12.
By the way, your pistons look to be original. Its just that someone changed the bottom ring with a modern style oil control ring. I can't post any of the pages as I only have .pdf copies of the books. The originals went with the car. Copies may be available from the AACA library.
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Hopefully this link works.
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Hi Nate
Try a search on the forum for a thread on another similar rear end repair issue. I think it was a late '20's Kissel. Perhaps someone here can elaborate.
That restorer had similarly bad spider gears and after some searching found a modern spider gear that could be adapted into his rear axle to solve the problem.
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Some more comments on the issue.
I got my '36 120 back in 1978. Over the years its had a partial restoration, mainly the mechanicals and a now old repaint (1984). The engine engine was rebuilt after running it a bit too fast on the highway one day which resulted in two spun rod bearings at an indicated 82 miles an hour. Longer story there.🤐
The car now has over 25,000 miles on the rebuild and 30,000 plus since I acquired it. Overall its been a good old car that when sorted drives I think very well for the age. The second gear acceleration can make you smile.☺️
Interesting experience on the transmission. I had something similar happen, but got away without any damage. When doing some other work I had the floor out and the top of the transmission off. After it was put back together and driven down the road something in the transmission didn't feel quite "normal" so I turned around and came home.
When I got the transmission cover off the oil was full of shiny metal flakes. A 5/16 lock washer had fallen in and got chewed up by the gears into metal powder. It took a while and a flush to get all the flakes out of the transmission as some had started to pack into the gear teeth. Fortunately no lasting damage and a few thousand miles since.
The brakes when set up are also very good. Bendix hydraulic brakes. My '120 stops better than my '75 Buick LeSabre did.
'36 is the best year for the 120. Slightly beefed up engine in '36, last years for the older style dashboard. And the build quality is good for the value. I think that it got a bit "cheaper" in the later years. But its no CCCA grade car by any stretch of the imagination.
An offside comment, each of the '35, '36 and '37 have different bumpers and bumper guards. What is the story for having '37 bumper guards on the '36 car?🫢
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It sounds like you have experienced "rotor slip" in the distributor.
Most Delco starter/generaters from this era are a combined unit mounted at the back of the engine and driven by a jack shaft from the front of the engine with a coupling in the middle somewhere.
Its likely similar to the one on my '14 Hudson 6-40. I have had similar issues happen on occasion when the came the distributor rotor is mounted on started to slip. This may sound odd, but it can be a problem with these units that you won't find on more modern separate direct drive distributors.
The rotor cam is mounted loose on the rotor shaft and is held in the right place by an internal lock that is similar to that used on bicycle handlebars to hold them in their mounting tube. If you take the rotor off the came you should see a screw head inside. This screw turns a clamp fixture in the rotor shaft to hold the rotor cam in the correct position. It can work loose and then the rotor cam will shift position and lose the correct timing relation to the cylinders. The coil and spark can still work, but the timing of the spark can be way off.
I would recommend checking the spark timing and adjust if needed. The owner's book should describe how to go about it. If not, here are some pages from Dykes manuals c '18-'20 to try to help better describe the process. The pages may come up out of order, but hopefully you can follow through them.
Good luck.
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Hi Alan
Thanks for the notes. I have heard of some owners re-gearing their steering. One version was to cut and weld the pitman arm. But I'm not comfortable with that approach for mine. But I would consider changing to a different shorter pitman arm if I were to run across one.
Mine does have the 26" boiler. It also has the later style "kidney" boiler water level gauge. I'm not sure if that was being used by '17 or not. Together they leave very little space around the steering box.
I keep looking at the car and I think that the steering could be removed. Its just how many other bits have to be removed from it to gain enough access. It looks like the box has to move sideways about 2.5 inches to clear the frame (once the arm is off). But there is only an inch between the box and the water level gauge.
I am planning to remove the burner assembly anyway to inspect the burner surface. I have some concerns about possible surface rust that may block some of the burner holes since the car has sat for several years. There is a layer of light flaky surface rust on the top boiler tubesheet and I expect to find more on the bottom. The burner holes are small and it wouldn't take much to plug some of them off. Fortunately it appears that the rust will brush off with only a little effort.
With the burner out and if the level gauge is removed and a hood shelf removed (to be able to flex the splash shield slightly to get the arm off) and of course removing the steering wheel and bracket it should be possible to jiggle and maneuver the box down out from under the car.
Presently the car is in what I consider my "clean garage" and I'm waiting until it gets moved into the workshop later this year before getting deeper into the dirty work like that.
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Hi Nate
Always watching for updates on your Dort project.I ran across this Dort wiring diagram and electrical description in a Dykes manual from c1920 recently and thought you might find it of interest.
It may not cover yours, but perhaps it may still have some useful information.
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Here are some pictures to show that I did have the tie rod and drag link off the Stanley for servicing and inspection. The parts cleaned up well and show only minimal wear. I did find though that there should be some leather "booties" on each end of the drag link to help keep the grease in and dirt out. I have some left over leather from another project that may help make some that will work.
Its nice to work on an un-restored car where the bolts are all rusted and stuck. So far, nearly everything has come apart with hand tools and gentle force.
Now for a bit of a comparison between a Stanley and Ford Model T from the same era. The Ford weighs about 1400 lbs dry, the Stanley about 3,800 dry. You may see in the pictures where some of that comes from.😉
Here is the Stanley tie rod beside a Ford T one.
And the Stanley drag link beside a Ford T one.
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Hi All
For Ed. I appreciate your comments and suggestions. Please keep them coming, I have found them to be helpful on other projects too.
This one will stay on to do list. It just may have to be deferred for a bit until I start to work on the parts that are in the way and can eventually find the room to get the steering box out.
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Some additional information. I spent some time going through my reference library looking for information on Ross steering boxes.
I found some notes that described a bit of the Ross history and design. From the notes, its appears that Ross started supplying steering boxes in the early 1920's or so. And that the early designs used shims between the main case and a side plate to adjust the mesh with the worm. After a few years, they redesigned the case to include an external screw and lock nut which allowed for the adjustment of the mesh of the pin and the worm with the steering still mounted in place.
Unfortunately, it appears that I have one of the earlier designs. Here are some pictures from the Gasoline Automobiles reference book, c1940 that provided the additional information.
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Hi All
I;m copying this over from the Technical section so that there will be a more complete copy of the story here.
Thank you for the comments and suggestions. I do agree that it would be better to remove it for a more detailed inspection and service. I did that with the tie rod and drag link. Off, apart, cleaned up, inspected then lubricated and re-installed. However, there is a problem with the steering box. Looking at the car it looks a lot like they installed the box on the bare frame, then built the rest around it. There is no path to take the steering box and column out without some potentially serious dismantling under the hood or perhaps even more. It has to go down through the firewall to come off. There is no removable panels in the body firewall or floor to allow it out that way.
Here are some pictures to try to show the problem.
Looking down on the steering box, it can't come up and out. The steam throttle is attached to the top of the box and above it is a water level gauge blowdown valve. Beside it with the fins is the boiler water level gauge.
From underneath. The steering box cannot come forward and down without removing the boiler burner assembly and fuel supply lines. And then removing steering column mounting brackets at the dash, it may be possible to tilt it and take it down under the boiler support cross member (which is bolted for removal if the boiler is out).
And then on top of all that. There may not be enough room to remove the pitman arm from the steering box before it hits the splash apron. Hopefully, if the frame mounting bolts are loosened first it would come off and allow the box to move in enough to get it off.
So yes, the box needs to come off to be serviced. But it may have to wait until later when I have the burner off when it comes time to inspect it and pressure test the boiler. In the meantime it may just have to stay "as is" for now.
Some more info on Ross steering next.
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True. But most of it appears to have seeped out over time leaving just a film of film of lub inside. I have to dig some proper lube out and add it until such time as I can take the steering right off for a proper service.
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For Ed.
This box is at least oily inside. It wasn't dry when I pulled the fill plug. But it wasn't as full as it should have been either. No signs of rust inside, just gummy old oil.
And based on the Stanley's history, I don't think that the car has cover more than 10,000 miles. And the caretakers of the day did try to keep it up when it was still in use.
So far, most parts don't show much wear. But, wear is present.
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Some additional information. I spent some time going through my reference library looking for information on Ross steering boxes.
I found some notes that described a bit of the Ross history and design. From the notes, its appears that Ross started supplying steering boxes in the early 1920's or so. And that the early designs used shims between the main case and a side plate to adjust the mesh with the worm. After a few years, they redesigned the case to include an external screw and lock nut which allowed for the adjustment of the mesh of the pin and the worm with the steering still mounted in place.
Unfortunately, it appears that I have one of the earlier designs. Here are some pictures from the Gasoline Automobiles reference book, c1940 that provided the additional information.
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Hi All
Thank you for the comments and suggestions. I do agree that it would be better to remove it for a more detailed inspection and service. I did that with the tie rod and drag link. Off, apart, cleaned up, inspected then lubricated and re-installed. However, there is a problem with the steering box. Looking at the car it looks a lot like they installed the box on the bare frame, then built the rest around it. There is no path to take the steering box and column out without some potentially serious dismantling under the hood or perhaps even more. It has to go down through the firewall to come off. There is no removable panels in the body firewall or floor to allow it out that way.
Here are some pictures to try to show the problem.
Looking down on the steering box, it can't come up and out. The steam throttle is attached to the top of the box and above it is a water level gauge blowdown valve. Beside it with the fins is the boiler water level gauge.
From underneath. The steering box cannot come forward and down without removing the boiler burner assembly and fuel supply lines. And then removing steering column mounting brackets at the dash, it may be possible to tilt it and take it down under the boiler support cross member (which is bolted for removal if the boiler is out).
And then on top of all that. There may not be enough room to remove the pitman arm from the steering box before it hits the splash apron. Hopefully, if the frame mounting bolts are loosened first it would come off and allow the box to move in enough to get it off.
So yes, the box needs to come off to be serviced. But it may have to wait until later when I have the burner off when it comes time to inspect it and pressure test the boiler. In the meantime it may just have to stay "as is" for now.
Some more info on Ross steering next.
Now What Have I Done..... '22 Stanley Steam Car
in Our Cars & Restoration Projects
Posted · Edited by nsbrassnut (see edit history)
Well, it bit the bullet and got new tires for the Stanley. As several others have comment in recent month the cost of tires for early cars has increased. And if you live up here in Canada with our beaver bucks, it can be really painful to bring in tires.
I did a fair bit of humming and hawing on just what tire to order and it took me a while to settle on one (as well as for the savings account to get read for them). Some have mentioned on the MTFCA website about the English Blockley tires that they have been bringing in for Fords. Blockley’s main specialty is vintage sports car tires. But someone talked them into making clinchers for Ts (both sizes now). And someone else talked them into making 34” X 4 1/2” straight side tires that fit a few vintage cars, one of which is my Stanley.
I did some comparison between their tire and the usual “brand x” competitor.
Blockley 8 ply rating, load rating 1,700 lbs. @ 65 psig
Brand X (2 options) 4 ply nylon, 6 ply rating load rating 1,250 lbs. @ 60 psig
Since the Stanley, fully loaded and with passengers can be pushing 5,000 lbs. the load rating starts to swing the choice. And the bonus, the landed cost here in Canada came out slightly less than for the US based brand x options.
For anyone interested here is the Blockley website. For some reason I have problems with emails with them, but once I called by phone everything went just fine. And the tires arrive 7 days after the order, and with more air miles in their account then I have!
https://www.blockleytyre.com/
While on the topic of tires.
Big cars need big tires. Not just now, but back then too. So, for some comparisons, tires for this car have never exactly been “low cost”.
From my library, 34 X 4 1/3, $36 to $56 each in 1922. A set of four with tubes could be over $200 CDN. When Ford Ts were going for under $500, and a new Stanley was running about $5,000 CDN landed here.
And from the Stanley’s library, 1948, $52.35CDN each plus tax. Keith only paid $600 for the Stanley and he had to get a new set of tires for it which cost mover than 30% of what he paid for it.
Here I am in 2024, and the cost of a set of tires and tubes today relative to my cost for the Stanley is almost as high.
While some things change, some things just sort of stay the same.😉