Packard enthus.
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Posts posted by Packard enthus.
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6 hours ago, R W Burgess said:
Looked much better in white walls...just my opinion!
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19 hours ago, alsancle said:
Boat and antique car guys both know what the two best days are of ownership are.
What a sad (and accurate in so many cases) comment about the human condition. So many folks look for satisfaction in material things, but are unable to find it. My own personal prejudice...? Too many people buying stuff without knowing enough about it to see if it meets what they are looking for.
I really shouldn't comment about this very human problem - I elected to learn about stuff...so when I actually aquired it, I found what I was looking for....something satsifactory for my needs.
Example....wife and I have owned our Bayliner Contessa (28 ft. cabin cruiser) for some 40+ years now....and (assuming I did it correctly) a photo of our Packard Twelve on a recent CCCA tour in the Colorado Rockies (bought that in '57....still find it gives me satisfaction when I drive it.
Could the problem be - people don't study a prospective purchase enough to get what meets their needs ?
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I dont understand. Why care if today's car buffs call it a "classic"....?
The phrase "classic car" has long since evolved, to match where our culture is going. True, there was a time when the phrase meant something, at least to those of us who were active in the earlier years of the CLASSIC CAR CLUB OF AMERICA. But that was then.
These days....EVERYTHING someone is trying to sell is "classic". I just got back from the grocery store, where I was able to buy "classic shoelaces"....getting harder and harder to find anything someone is trying to unload, that they don't screech the word "classic" at it.
Point is...the car depicted looks like it is really a neat old car. Performs and drives at least as well as any other well-maintained used car of that era's price range. Will it drive as well as a properly maintained Cadillac V-16, Packard or Pierce Twelve, KB Lincoln, Dusie... etc? Of course not. But who cares? If you like it...and it is something you can afford and know how to maintain, why not?
And just look at where the used car hobby is headed......won't be more than a few months before my Toyota Camry will be an "antique classic"! So forget what other people will call it - to me...looks like a really neat old car!
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TIME NOTE 29 May 2024 Nothing new in the fact that as each generation gets bored with its era's products, they abandon them to the elements, as something without value...to be discarded, so they can move on to the next era's technology.
Well....not everyone does that. Some of us are fortunate that we were able to find people & buy cars from those who treated their used cars as something of value, to be properly maintained. Here's an example - a photo I took of the interior of my '38 Packard Twelve - took it just the other day. Yes, I did have to do a "ring and valve" job in the 1960's (had it since 1956), but is otherwise (some obvious wear) as it was when it rolled out the door at 1580 East Grand Ave....!
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TIRE ISSUES:
I am lucky - am familiar with late 1930's "Senior Division" Packards - their wheels are standard design "drop center" by MOTOR RIM & WHEEL (Packard's wheel supplier down thru the years). Ordinary 7:50 x 16 radials - no need for tubes. Being radials without the internal friction of tubes, they run fine at extreme speeds without the internal heating of the tire's carcass that would occur if it had tubes.
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I am fascinated by one of the photos - looks like there is a major crack partially around the flange on that wheel. Given how brutally tough and heavy Packard Twelves are, i wonder what kind of "loads" it took (assuming that is not just an error in photo transfer...?) to do that. Would love to know the story behind that.
And please, folks...dont start in about radial tires and their use on pre-war wheels. Yes, there may be an argument not to use radials on many cheaper pre-war cars. But on a "Senior Division" Packard? Get serious - Packard "over-spec'd" those wheels from the once famous MOTOR RIM AND WHEEL company.
What do I know about it? I bought my Packard Twelve when i was in high school in '57. Been beating the #$((**@ out of it ever since. (who says it isn't a heck of a lot of fun to "drift" a Packard Twelve....!) Been using radials on it since radials became avail. (a "off-the-shelf" 7:50 x 16" truck radial is so close in size and diameter to the orig. 8:25 x 16"....it works well. If the wheels dont fall off between now and Fall '24, you will see it at the SAN MARINO MOTOR CLASSIC (along with LOTS of other Packard Twelves with radial tires...!)
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On 4/18/2024 at 2:11 PM, 60FlatTop said:
A '53 Packard. I have a real weak spot between the ears for '51-'54 Packards....
Sad to see, you are a rarity. Those '53-'54 Packards, and the two years of Packard's production that followed, are EXACTLY why Packard closed down in the midst of 1956 production. Because the motoring public had figured it out. If you have the opportunity to drive a properly maintained Olds, Buick, or Cad. of that era by comparison, it will be obvious.
Ever increasing issues with declining build-quality, engineering, miserable performance and reliability explain why sales kept falling off to the point they couldn't give em away. I recall sitting on a curb by Beverly Hills Packard, having lunch with guys from the service dept. The service manager saw a transporter roll up with some new '54's. I cannot use the kind of language he burst out with in disgust...cleaned up it was something to the effect "here comes another batch of "do-it-yourself" kits. (this reflected the fact dealers were getting screwed by Packard over the descrpancies in what they were reimbursed for what it took to make what Packard shoved out the factory door, to make deliverable. As a Packard fanatic, it broke my heart to see the news article confirming "it was over" - believe that was mid-June '56.
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An old Chevrolet in the CLASSIC CAR section? Yes - understandable - to the modern generations the word "CLASSIC CAR" simply means any old used car or pick-up truck you like (or are trying to sell).
May I respectfully suggest this may not be the best "thread" within this forum to find people familiar with Chevrolets.
Mostly older people in here, many who have a quite different interpretation of the word "CLASSIC CAR". To help you relate to how many in that generation think about what a CLASSIC car is, let me give you a picture.... of.... well ... say... pre-war an opening night at the Metropolitan Opera, or perhaps a diplomatic reception. The huge, elegant aristocratic "super-cars" delivering guests to an event would be "CLASSICS"..... where as the perfectly nice, ordinary, serviceable cars delivering trades-people and hired help to the rear entrance, would be the "nice old cars".
I personally can't be of much help - as I am not familiar with the ordinary cars of earlier eras. I suggest within this forum there may well be "threads" populated by people more familiar with your kind of car. That is where you may find old car enthusiasts better able to help you with accurate, relevant info.
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I am puzzled. If I read that chart correctly, it suggests the 356 engine was avail. for 1950 production. I do not recall that. My recollection is the 356 was discontinued for 1950 production, meaning the largest displacement motor was the 327 for that and up to end of 1953 production.
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On 10/23/2023 at 4:58 PM, JV Puleo said:
.......... you'd probably be safer with an unrestored car that has never been mucked with than with a large percentage of the restorations out there.
Well said ! Outstanding illustration of the change....when what WAS a hobby for people who, with their own hands, enjoyed the technical aspects of the machines they thought enough of to collect....to today.....it's just a business to so many current participants.
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How sad - well-meaning people who destroy engines (or give advice on how to bring one back to life) with perfectly good intentions. BEFORE attempting to turn the motor over even one revolution, it is ESSENTIAL that the oil pan be removed, to clean out the sludge that WILL be ingested by the oil pump, ruining the connecting rod and main bearings.
How do I know this? Attached photo suggests I have some familiarity with working on motors damaged by well-meaning others.
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3 hours ago, 30DodgePanel said:
I guess I can see now where some of the confusion comes in.
Ask yourself, where does the most recent Antique Automobile Club of America logo show any customizations?
After a quick peak at the logo surely most of us have noticed none of the cars portrayed are even antiques in a technical sense ....
Exactly my point. The AACA logo,as you point out, does not show "antique" cars (or at least as some of us once thought the word meant). The AACA is changing. It simply reflects that our country's culture, language, all are changing, evolving to reflect where we are going as a society. The simple fact of economic life is that many people now involved in clubs that once had more precise definitions, are directly involved in the sales and service of old cars. Some of us are from a time when the general public saw nothing worthwhile in old cars; treated us with, if we were lucky, dis-interest (more likely contempt). When the values climbed, people who saw a chance to make a buck, jumped in. Been to an auto action recently? Seen what people are paying for used cars of the post-war years? Not logical to expect clubs will ignore the trend.
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On 2/17/2024 at 8:48 AM, 31A said:
I don't want to look like a jirk. Everyone has their own taste and opinions. I like pure stock. (Sorry). I don't consider vehicles with built frames, fuel injectors, solid state ignition and so on as ANTIQUE. The fully modified cars with the latest in technology are impressive but do not belong in a Antique club. Please correct my thinking.
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Your thinking (like mine...!) is woefully obsolete. In a previous and different USA, the words "antique" and "classic" had precise meanings when applied to autos. For example, the word "antique" was applied to cars with antique features, such as brakes on only the rear wheels (which were typically "external contracting", lighting from carbide generators, high pressure tires, etc. The word "classic" when applied to cars meant only the largest, most powerful, most elegant "super cars" of the 1920's up to when streamlining and mass-production of less expensive cars took over, just before the onset of the Pearl Harbor attack. My understanding (someone correct me if I am wrong) at one time the AACA decided the Model A Ford was too "modern" to be considered "antique"...given all the introduction of modern technology (FOUR wheel brakes) that were "internal expanding"...on board electric generation for lights and other accessories, etc.
But that was then. that was before used car dealers, body shops, after-market manufacturers, etc. discovered the terms could be used to sell stuff. To confirm how obsolete the thinking of the originator of this "thread" is, one can look at more recent thinking. The terms "old used" car...is gone. ALL used cars are now "classic". Turn to page 76 of the ANTIQUE AUTOMOBILE (the official magazine of the AACA) found in the MAY-JUNE 2023 edition. You will find an excellent argument for appreciating "Emerging Antiques". A major "trade magazine called HEMMINGS has page after page of advertisements for various goods and services of interest to old car fans (ooops...shame on me...should have said "antique classic" fans...!). Try and find a page in that magazine where some part or service was NOT called "antique" or "classic". Bottom line....enjoy this new era....it is here to stay...our thinking is not!
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Thank you for posting a photo of the front of your late model GMC truck in front of the same place I had earlier photographed my Packard Twelve, and telling us I was there last month".
That is nice that you were able to park your late model GMC truck in that same place. May I inquire...how you believe your post contributes to the discussions in this "thread" ? Discuss, please.
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3 hours ago, 8E45E said:
Have you been to the autowreckers lately? Nearly every 25-30 year old car, SUV, or pickup in there still has unfaded shiny paint on it!! Craig
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May I inquire? How does your above post tell us what your position is, on the changes in the use of words such as "classic" and "antique"...?
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11 hours ago, dodge28 said:
I might be considered a jerk. My cutoff date of antique is 1964, The car up to then has some character
I respectfully suggest you are WAY "behind-the-times". Subscribe to the magazine "ANTIQUE AUTOMOBILE" put out by the ANTIQUE AUTO CLUB OF AMERICA. Great info. in the articles as to where the used car hobby is going. (at least that is where many folks WANT it to go......)
For example, go to the MAY JUNE 2023 issue (Volume 87 Number 3). See the article entitled EMERGING ANTIQUES that begins on Pp. 76, There you will find the author stating "antiques from this modern era" are where we should give more consideration (pick up trucks, Ford Granada...things like that.
Just think, in another year my 2000 Toyota RAV 4 will be considered an "antique" by some folks. They would be VERY unhappy with me if I dared violate what these folks want to hear, should I call it "a used car"
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5 hours ago, 8E45E said:
Maybe you'll be fortunate enough to get 'stuck' behind me in your Packard on a single lane road with my Studebaker Diesel which is governed to a top speed of 50mph! Craig
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Let's get this out in front...LIFE IS UNFAIR! IT ISN'T MY FAULT SO DONT BLAME ME! Yeah...you may well feel a touch of envy if I am "fortunate enough" to get stuck behind you in your "ordinary man's" car.....as I blast by you at nearly twice your speed ( I don't feel comfortable, given my tires are now about 5 years old....taking my Packard Twelve much above 90).
No question about it - it is decidedly unfair that so few folks have a clue what the big "super cars" of the pre-war era could do; how superior they are to the "ordinary man's" cars of that time. By the mid 1930's Pierce Arrows had over-drive...a Marmon V-16 or Dusie...? C'mon, man - be a courteous driver & stay the hell out of our way!
Most, if not all, of the big "super-cars" of that era had power brakes - drums half again larger in diameter than the "ordinary man" cars. Cooling systems? Water bags were a "hot" item at gas stations in that era, but you sure as heck dont need one on a "super car".
How fast are the 'super cars".? Well...bone stock, the ones that did not have some kind of over-drive were crippled with absurdly low (numerically high) final drive ratios. So yes, I cheated in this respect - my otherwise "bone stock" Packard Twelve has a 3.23 final drive ratio. How fast COULD it go? How fast COULD a Pierce Arrow V-12 go...? What we do know is how fast they can stop. (again, proper maintainence is the key....with the correct brake lining)..those things can do a "feathered" wheels-locked stop at ANY speed.
So just how fast is fast? We know that for the introduction of the so-called "Twin Six" in late 1931, Packard took a otherwise bone-stock new one out on their test track, and proved "PACKARD BEATS A GOLF BALL". The time clocked the golf ball at 122...the Twelve (o.k...for that year only, was called the "Twin Six")....at 124. (yeah...Packard cheated...that thing was "high geared" with a left-over differential from their earlier "Speedster" series...!
So we can agree that life isn't fair - take today...for example...on a hot day in modern traffic, is that guy in the $100,000. car of today, any more comfortable with his air conditioner on, than my wife and I in our Toyota RAV4?
Packard introduced "factory air" in late '39 for 1940 production. Who, who actually knows what they are talking about...would doubt that a '40 Packard equipped with their then-new "356" & overdrive would have any problem keeping up with modern traffic?
The key is proper maintainence. As others have pointed out, the cost and skill to bring back into service one of those pre-war era "super cars" is a whole different problem than just overhauling an "ordinary man" car like a "junior" series Packard...or Ford...or Buick...or whatever. How many modern shops would have a CLUE...for example..of how to remove and service the "lifters" out of a Packard Twelve....!
Bottom line....life- isn't fair...there is always someone who has something vastly superior to what you are familiar with. Accept it....and dont make a point out of showing either your envy...or your ignorance...or both!
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On 2/7/2024 at 5:42 AM, 8E45E said:
That's a huge reason we see 'restomods'; to fix most of the shortcomings of the original product. Not that I always agree with it, but it can make an outdated, substandard vehicle perform adequately in today's traffic.
Craig
So you think a Packard Twelve is a "substandard vehicle"....suggesting it cant perform adequately in today's traffic...eh? My recommendation for people who are thinking of letting their envy get the best of their sense of manners......when you are clueless, dont advertise it!
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This fellow from Washogal, Wash.....just posted "I use to be long for year". Apparently in response to a three year old post about a guy who claims he heard Turnquist speak, and "Packard Twelves were a dime a dozen".
Hmmm.....let's see.. oh well..it's the Internet....
In my own case, I am as long as I have ever been since puberty, but that's just me.
As for Turnquist saying he was driving Packard Twelves around in a junk-yard.....well....I knew Bob and Sonny personally - of all the stories I heard him tell, either to me directly, or when I was with him and others...never heard him tell that one.
For those who do not know, the Turnquists lived in Morristown, New Jersy. The town got is name for the first colonial governor of that state - William Morris. The Turnquists lived in the centuries-old home orig. built for the governor. My recollection (been many years since I've stayed with them) the home was in a pretty nice section - can't recall any jankyards in the area.
Packard Twelves were a "dime a dozen'? Oh well.. again....its the Internet. Values of big old luxury cars were way down...? Well....depends on your perspective.
In 1957, I paid twenty five bucks for my Packard Twelve...which was about right since it needed a battery, & the tires were well worn. Twenty five bucks was no dime.....in fact...if you convert it to today's purchasing power I paid around $500. for that car. That's a lot of money for a high school kid...took some doing, mowing lawns over several summers...to get that twenty five bucks together.
What happened to my own Packard Twelve? That story is told elsewhere. Sufficient to note it continues to do what its original designers intended....that's it with my wife and i inside, storming thru a high mountain pass in the Colorado Rockies during a CCCA CARavan a year or so ago.....
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18 hours ago, 32buick67 said:
Expensive, yes, but we often get what we pay for...
I installed these and haven't been disappointed, we drive at night, and are amazed at the low and high beam performance!
I will promote these all day long for those driving dawn to dusk and beyond...
Wow...sounds great - only problem for post 1939 cars is the socket adapter...is there such a thing...? I would need something to connect the old'style socket base to the 1940 & later "sealed beam" type three prong connector.
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HEADLIGHT BULBS
I got all excited about the discussion in here about LED headlight bulbs. I presently have 50W quartz halogens using modeern reflectors I installed behind my "stock" lenses, so my headlights look "period correct".
The order confirms they understood my old car (see below) is 6 volts. They came today from a 'USKY3 WHAREHOUSE in Hebron, Kentucky. Nice fancy box labeled "LED auto lamps". No indication who the mfg. is, no indication what voltage.
On installing them in my car...... NOTHING! Turns out they only work on modern NEGATIVE ground systems. When I reversed the polarity, they lit up - but I m frankly not impressed with them. They are nowhere near as bright as my existing quartz hologens. when I reversed the polarity. I did NOT try to put 12 volts on them for fear of burning them up.
For those of you who also have 6 volt cars - yes, I would recommend quartz halogens, avail. from a number of sources. Just bear in mind you will have to re-wire your headlight "buckets" to modern "bayonet" style connectors. Also, today's quartz-halogens pull a LOT more amps than the old incandescents/sealed beams. I am lucky, Packard Twelves have the biggest 6 volt generators of any pre-war car I am aware of, plus a "Group 4" sized battery. Your problem? Quartz halogens may well have a greater electrical demand that pre-war "factory" electrical systems in most cars can handle.
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TWELVE PARTS?
As a long-confirmed Packard Twelve fanatic, it pains me to see ads like this - means that somewhere, some time ago, a magnificent automobile "bit the dust". Bet there is a interesting story as to how this fellow came by these parts. Go for it!
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We are both correct. We both win. I pointed out what was standard production. You pointed out the obvious...for those who wanted to pretend they bought the more expensive, much more powerful "top-of-the-line" Packards, of course they would be accommodated to make the sale.
Either at the factory, or by the distributor, or even the delivering dealer! While the color book for that year showed what Packard choices Packard offered in "production", of course they would paint the thing (for a price)....either at the factory or later on in the delivery chain, to make a sale.
For some reason, Packards delivered to India often came new with chromed hood sheet metal, as well as BOTH the grill shells and shuttersl! (I suspect the distributor handled that, not the factory...but I don't know for sure..!)
As a side-note, and as an example of my being wrong, I lost a bet about chromed headlight shells on '38-39 Twelves. I never saw or even heard of one till relatively recently. Turns out there were a couple - most definitely "original" unmolested versions.
And then...the more obvious cases of disregarding historical accuracy...."owner license",,,? My own '38 Twelve's paint job. 1935 -39 production cars were solid colors. If there ever was one of that era coming at the door at 1580 E. Grand Ave. "two toned", I am not aware of it. But I like two-toning...and, after all...it is my %$#@((# car!
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HUNDRED BUCKS OR LESS?
This presents a "generation gap" issue. Why? A little explanation to give you younger folks a better understanding of what has been avail. over the years for a hundred bucks
Because...well....a hundred bucks is a hundred bucks...? Nope....think REAL VALUE/PURCHASING POWER. What the "powers-that-be" LIKE to say to disguise what they've done to us....they call "inflation". Not true. What they've done to our purchasing power... our American dollar has been DEFLATED in its value....
To give you a example SOME of you can relate to, when I bought my '34 Packard Super Eight (a good running car I went to my first year of high school in) I did pay a hundred bucks for it. How much did I REALLY pay...in REAL MONEY? Well...in that year...a U.S. Post stamp was three cents. At three cents for ordinary mail, there was sufficient purchasing power in that three cents the U.S. Post Office was doing fine. Now, in our bright new year of 2024, they are LOSING money at over fifty cents a stamp.
My best guess is the twenty five bucks I paid the following year, for my '38 Packard Twelve, was the equiv. in today's money/purchasing power, of around five hundred bucks. Pretty steep (did I over-pay..?)
for a then 18 year old car with a bad battery, bad tires, and needing an engine overhaul.
In 1950 I went with my dad to take delivery of his new Buick Super. If memory serves, that was about a grand. How much in that DEFLATED currency is a mid-price range Buick today?
So - let's keep some perspective....and be prepared...at the current rate, it won't be long with what happened in Germany as the 1920's drew to a close....(you needed a wheelbarrow full of Reichsmarks to buy a loaf of bread....!)
Not to worry....I kept that Twelve...pulled the engine out - (the rod bearings were fine)....did the valves, new rings....honed the bores.....so far, so good (the picture below is it last summer with my wife and I, storming thru a high mountain pass in the Colorado Rockies....during a CCCA tour....!
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Driving classics
in CCCA - General
Posted · Edited by Packard enthus. (see edit history)
I see soemone in here believes a '37 Packard "Super" Eight and a '35 Packard Twelve are....well...."fairly" identical". May I inquire...in what ways are they "fairly identical", and, if they are not "fairly identical"....in what ways are they not?