Buicks Rule
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Bob,
I know that Buick Historian Terry Dunham has spent a great deal of time trying to find a definitive answer to similar questions for Buicks of this same era. Did Pontiac have more than one assembly plant for 1936? You might try contacting him for the full story. I'm working on memory here but this is roughly what he discovered for 1937 Buick VIN issues.
I believe that 1937 was the 'first' year that Buick was involved in a GMAD style plant where multiple GM makes were assembled in two locations other than Buick controlled Flint. The two locations were-I think-Southgate CA and Linden NJ. With 37 Buick Flint last VIN minutes Flint First VIN gives total annual production at all plants. The numbering system was also changed in later years so Terry had to try to understand what was done by a reverse analysis of survivors.
However what Terry discovered was that it appears that Linden/Southgate were assigned blocks of VIN numbers that were re-plenished as they built out their assigned numbers. Since the majority of the production still came from the home plant, and 'early' VIN assigned to CA/NJ would likely have been built later in the calendar year than would have occurred if it were built at the 'home' plant, it becomes much harder to track a build date for an assembly plant car than it is for a 'home'plant car.
Let me also propose the following. I don't know cars of that era well but based on your experience does the following make any sense?
Another issue that might be part of this. The Fisher body number is a production sequence number for Fisher body. At what point did fisher body care that the car was going to become a Pontiac, or within Pontiac which series of Pontiac the car was to become? During the production process at Fisher body? or was this identical body used for more than one GM convertible?
Let me try to explain this idea because I'm not sure I've made my thoughts clear. In 1964, Fisher body had to care whether the A body convertible they were building was destined to be a Chevelle, LeMans, F-85 or Skylark while it was on the Fisher line because the steel body panels welded into the car were physically different panels, even though the cowl and interior structure was the same. So, Fisher style numbers followed by body number became very marque/series specific.
Is it possible that in 1936, this exact same convertible body was used on other GM cars with no structural or 'hard'panel differences in the body itself? Are there press line/character line/or size differences that would make this "A-body" convertible different from the basic body shell on a Chev, Olds or Buick convertible? In other words, from a Fisher body standpoint, was this bare body a 'generic' A body convertible to be sold to whichever division needed it or was it a 'specific' Pontiac master body from the time the body structure started to come together. If the same body could be built out as more than one series of Pontiac or more than 1 GM car line, that would also explain a relatively 'high' body number on a relatively 'early' VIN.
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As long as you give the nod to the BUICK built turbo charged 3.8 V-6 that allowed it to do that, I'm fine with the 89 BUICK powered Trans-Am.
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John,
I told you I was a little slow.
I went with the more expensive power cord combined with FM transmitter as my kids indicated the sound quality was better with that system than with the little one that plugs into the output port on the ipod. This one may also be easier to change on the fly so to speak as the blank frequency that I use for my area won't be blank everywhere.
Like John, I have a convertible, so installing an expensive sound system was not only going to be a pain but also has security issues since anything left in an open car, including CD's tends to walk easily. Sound quality is probably 80% of CD quality mainly due to old radios but it is an almost hassle free system.
They also make speakers and other things specifically for these units but the more stuff you have laying around the car, the more stuff you have to move to the trunk or clear out for judging.
Remember back in the 60's when everybody under 20 had a transister radio glued to their bodies. Take a look at your average teenager today--the ipod or mp3 player goes everywhere with them.
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Gee Dave,
You go right for the hard questions. Personally, I don't think we've seen the "last" muscle car yet. It might end up being a hybrid powered or hydrogen fueled car way in the future.
I had a chance to play with a Saturn EV-1 when they were new. A very quick car off the line. Just didn't go far or needed a loooonnngggg cord.
What about the current Mitsubishi car with the huge rear wing, the unrefined, noisy engine and pretty vicious acceleration?
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Hint
Dynaflow works via Torque Multiplication. Learn to recognize your engine's peak torque rpm by sound. You will have fastest acceleration near this torque peak. That rpm will be listed in your shop manual. Revving the engine past that point will not increase your acceleration as torque will fall off.
Easy visual aid for a Dynaflow. Put two window fans face to face. Turn one on. The air represents the tranny fluid. The air flow will transmit the torque from the powered fan to the fan that's off. Eventually the off fan will apprach the powered fan in speed.
Playing around with the window fans could also give you some ideas of how to make get best performance out of your car. First Gen Dynaflows did not have as many turbines/stators as 53 and later so their acceleration will be somewhat leisurely.
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Suggestion. What we did at the Buffalo meet was to park on the American side and walk across. It was much faster than dealing with the car passage issues, especially for just an afternoon or evening dinner. We actually went over on 3 or 4 separate days.
The 'space needle' style restaurant with the restaurant in the rotating dome is a fantastic meal--not cheap--but not outrageous either. It will however take a fairly long amount of time.
If you are concerned about parking security issues, it might be worth grabbing a rental car and leaving your show car at the host hotel. There are quite a few parking garages on the American side that are only a few blocks from the bridge. I did not see any parking structures on the Canadian side and there was a LOT of vehicle and foot traffic on that side.
You can spend a good part of a day there, between made of the mist; power plant tour; guided hike down near the base of the falls; etc.....
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After years of cross country trips suffering through AM talk radio and FM stations that play 5 minutes of "music" to every 20 minutes of commercials, I finally found a better way thanks to my kids. I'm a little slow.
Due to glove box design in some of my Buicks, mounting a modern tape or cd player in there is just not an option. But, if the car has an AM/FM radio or you can mount an FM converter on your AM radio, there's an easy way to take everything with you.
Step 1--Purchase Apple I-pod. The cheaper 20 gig model will probably work, or even the mini.
Step 2--Load music from CD's onto Ipod in MP-3 or other format to reduce file size.
Step 3--Purchase Power Cord/FM converter combo by Monster or other vender for about $100.
Step 4--Plug cord into Ipod and cigarette lighter. Monster system has external station selector on converter. Select FM station on converter to match an unused MGH setting on car's FM radio.
Step 5--Enjoy your own CD's playing through the car's speaker(s) without having to haul them around.
Sound quality is OK. rear mounted antenna car seems a little lower quality than front mount but rear antenna car also has the highest quality sound system so it may be picking up things the other system misses. If the car is new enough to have a cassette player, the direct link from Ipod to cassette provides better sound quality but the FM converter does a decent job.
Let's put it this way. I would rather listen to music of MY choice, even if at less than ideal quality, than listen to endless ads and mindless chatter.
Upon arrival at the show, unplug cord from cigarette lighter and put Ipod in pocket. Even in a protective hard case, a full size ipod is only about the size of a deck of cards. The judges will never know.....
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West, Albert,
I think West's comment about mass produced is a good one. To me part of being a muscle car is that it was priced so that it was affordable to the 'regular' working person. The comments that motivated me to start the thread were an off topic chat in another thread that seemed to center on which 1960's car was the first 'muscle' car.
While we might disagree on whether it was the 36 Century, the straight 8 Auburns, the 30 Packard or the 191? Hudson Super Six, we can probably all agree that 'first' puts us significantly before the 1960's.
It may be more realistic to consider that within any given narrow window in time there were HOT cars of that year/era that would qualify as muscle cars of their time period when compared with others of that same period but whose performance was eclipsed by later cars thanks to advances in technology and manufacturing.
It really is amazing how manufacturers tend to re-discover the idea of the muscle car about every 10 years or so. 36 Centurys, 49 Olds 88, 64 GTO, 84 Grand National, possibly 2005 Chrysler Hemi 300, etc....
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You might try the I-Van network of appraisers. Their website is
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Red Curtice had a soft spot for Buick. I think a records search would show he almost always had the best GM could offer while GM President--that would be a Buick.
There's also a story about the Flint Mayor who was a very short term Cadillac owner. Just until Buick General Manager Mr. Curtice heard about it and suggested that he come to the Flint plant that evening to choose his new car--one that was BUILT by the voters in Flint.
Wonder if there was a connection between the high quality of the product and the pride of the workers in their product and the excitement generated by the product for the general public.
Glad Curtice's limo survived.
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Will LaCrosse be the answer to the whole question--probably not. But like Keith said, some of you guys need to get into the more recent Buicks on some long trips.
My sister took delivery of a new LaCrosse right after Christmas, trading in her Century. At my strong suggestion, she bought a more base model with the 3.8 rather than the new multi-valve engine that produces more hp ( but way less torque ); 3.8 gets better gas mileage and has a much more relaxed axle ratio ( 2.?? ) rather than the 3.69 in the multi valve wonder engine ( wonder how it's more efficient when it makes less power and gets less gas mileage ).
A mechanic friend who makes his living servicing modern cars also seconded the purchase of the "wheezy" old pushrod 3.8 due to better gas mileage than a 4 cylinder Toyota Camry, or any Taurus, better engine repair and longevity than a Camry and the fact that the 3.8 can cruise up hills without all passengers rowing--unlike the Camry.
Matt-next time try turning off the traction control. Usually when my BUICK SC 3.8 feels a little doggy, I look down and sure enough the traction control is on. Makes it hard to go when the computer is applying the brake.
The Buick 3.8 is just as state of the art as the "hot" small block Chebby engine that we keep hearing about. But, the buff magazines are so busy being technologically fascinated by multi-valve horsepower engines that quality, torque and decent fuel economy in the city traffic rev range that is the 'real'world get ignored.
GM does need to improve product content and pricing structure. The BUICK 3.8 is doing a great job of providing BUICK level performance, economy and longivity in various Pontiacs and Chevies which sell at cheaper price points. As long as GM continues to sell the same basic car, including engines, at multiple price points, the higher $ car will always sell fewer.
BTW--I would love to hear the reason why the SC 3.8 fits into the Bonneville but was NEVER available in the LeSabre. Even though the LeSabre is a little pudgy in styling, with an SC under the hood and a fully optioned high line interior, it might have given the more 'refined' makes a little competion.
Maybe the next BUICK engine will be a world class hybrid or hydrogen fueled car. Until then the 3.8 can soldier on showing the Chebbies it's taillights when turbocharged, and providing very nice performance and 30++ MPG for a 6 passenger car. It will probably take a hybrid to get better performance and equal fuel economy than the 3.8.
As much as I like my older Buicks and enjoy driving them, 24 mpg in constant stop and stop driving with climate control on and 30 mpg highway for 4- 6 passengers makes the SC 3.8 pretty easy to drive at gas pump time. Only time I notice it's front wheel drive is when the smoke comes from the front tires-not the back.
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Tom
Please read your first post carefully. In the first line you appear to be complaining because some members only list an email address. You've referenced that point twice in this discussion.
LATER in the SAME post you appear to be complaining about having to deal with snail mail and those advisors that will only work that way.
If you eliminate email, then you eliminate snail mail, about the only thing left is phone calls. After you've answered your first, or your 21 st, three am phone call from someone who wants to know why their local Autozone doesn't have a part ( or doesn't have it cheap enough ) you'll understand why some advisors won't post a phone number.
Also, one possible reason why the tech advisor list in the Bugle doesn't change too often is probably related to the fact that there aren't a huge number of people stepping forward to do the job.
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From what Mr. Buick 714 says you might be in for an expensive surgery.
Call Northwest Transmission in Ohio. They advertise in the Bugle. Don't know if they rebuild dynaflows or just sell parts. But the do know what they are doing. Maybe time for a nice springtime ride in the modern car to NW Ohio with dyna in the trunk.
Cost of a Turbo 400 rebuild can vary. One I did ran almost $1000 with me doing the work due to a couple of bad hard parts.
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Because they didn't build a huge number of 65 Skylark Gran Sports, the ST 300 GS tranny that bolts up to a nailhead can be a little hard to find and is usually more expensive than the regular ST 300.
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The regular 65 Skylark ST-300 tranny will not bolt up to a nailhead. The heavy duty ST 300 tranny from a 65 Skylark GS WILL bolt up to a nailhead. However it probably won't work real well hauling the heavier riv. If you are going to do a tranny change it is probably better to go with the ST 400 tranny. Your best bet would be to find a 65 Riv and get tranny, drive shaft, cross member, flex plate and anything else that "could" be different between a dynaflow 63 and a ST-400 65.
Since the 66 Riv is a completely different frame/body, as are all the big cars, only a doner 65 Riv would be sure to have all the surprise special parts to make the conversion on your 63.
Maybe you ought to try a different tranny rebuilder. The 63 Dynaflow with a 401 or 425 should be pretty bullet proof. In the long run, having the dyna fixed well would probably be more cost effective than changing out the tranny, which will lower the sales value of the car if you ever go to sell it.
Good luck.
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Tom,
I think you need to Re-read your original post.
Early on you seem to be complaining because some advisors only work by email "because not everyone has computers."
Then at the end you're complaining because other advisors only want to work through snail mail and "that takes too long."
Sooooo, you're unhappy with snail mail, you're unhappy with email. Could it be that you're just unhappy? Or that you believe that everyone should be accessable by phone? Folks in some professions have legitimate reasons for NOT permitting their phone numbers to be published.
Seriously, tech advisors provide a very important service to their fellow club members. They are VOLUNTEERS. I would bet that most of their interactions with members have been positive, enjoyable and worthwhile. Unfortunately, one negative interaction can easily persuade a volunteer that their time can be better used elsewhere. And the "just one more question" person on your phone bill can cause a huge dent in one's day and one's phone bill.
But Tom, you need to keep in mind that there is absolutely NOTHING obligating these folks to continue to provide this service or to do it at YOUR convenience. If an advisor is finding an individual is taking up an inordinate amount of their time they are well within their rights to decline to respond further. However, I would hope that case they would let the tech advisor coordinator know about the issue.
By the same token, if an advisor is finding themselves unable to respond in a timely manner to requests that they would put a message on their voicemail/develop a boiler plate email that indicates an estimated timeline for response.
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Tom,
Glad you recognize that the BCA tech advisors are volunteers who do NOT get any phone calls, copying or other expenses reimbursed by the club. Depending on the popularity of the car, this can be a significant time and $$ commitment on the part of the advisor.
And, unfortunately, not all club members are as respectful of the contact times that some advisors have listed. Some tech advisors have gotten calls in the middle of the night because the person seeking advice didn't bother to THINK about the time differences. It's one thing when this happens Australia or Europe to the US--CA to NY is another thing.
Another issue is that people don't always refer to the most recent Bugle when they try to contact a tech advisor. In at least one case a tech advisor passed away. His info was deleted from the newly published Bugles very quickly at the family's request. Unfortunately his survivors spent months ( like 2 years ) having to tell callers using old Bugles that he had passed away which caused them a great deal of additional stress.
One of the most common reasons people give for NOT volunteering to be a tech advisor is actually in your post above. They don't feel that their contribution is appreciated by the person they are trying to help.
Why don't you talk to Barney Eaton, the tech advisor coordinator directly? If you have an issue with someone not responding to you, he can help you get it resolved.
Other than possibly Joe, one of the by mail only folks knows more about his area of expertise than ANYONE else in the world. You do NOT want this gentleman to decide that his contributions are NOT appreciated. THAT would be a huge loss to the membership. The man I'm thinking of has very specific reasons for wanting to work via mail only. It's his call--he's the volunteer.
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Glenn,
The problem is that word "first." 15 years after the Olds 88 the GTO folks will claim that Pontiac was first with that concept with the 64 GTO. GM does seem to discover this concept about every 10 years.
In 49, the Olds 88 was one of the hottest factory built cars available.
In 41, the Buick Century gets to claim that title.
As Earl said, in 36 Auburn and Buick might go for it.
And, what about the 33 Auburn V-12?
The 49 88 would be 13 years newer than the 36 Century and 8 years newer than the 41. The 49 88 should win in a race between them--it's a newer car--it should win. But that Buick straight 8 might surprise you. 165 hp and compound carburetion when set up correctly is pretty close to the 49 Rocket in power. The straight 8 might also have the edge in torque.
The 49 Olds would outrun a 49 Buick.
But run that 41 Century against a 41 Olds--most likely a different picture. Same for 36.
In any model year, there were 'hot' cars from various manufacturers. Who was the actual first to stuff a big engine into a moderate sized car-Buick did it in 36, as did Auburn. Someone probably did it earlier than that.
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In another thread, a game of who's on first may be starting concerning the first muscle car.
Here's my bid for first case of a manufacturer putting their largest, most powerful engine in their lightest chassis, then selling it at a price the average employed person could afford (my definition of a muscle car).
In 1936 Red Curtice had Buick stuff the largest Roadmaster/Limited engine into the lighter Buick Special bodies and created the Buick Century. So named as the first moderately priced car that could hit and hold 100 mph.
Maybe Earl, Fran or Nick will tell us more about this bid for the 'first muscle car.'
Merry Christmas and Happy 2005
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Could be 65 LeSabre standard hubcap. My 65 documentation shows something very similar.
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Bruce,
AACA Term--HPOF--Historical Preservation of Original Features
BCA Term-- Archival Class
Guy wants to know what size was correct, who repops it, if not available, what is close.
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Re-58
Outside rear view mirrors were standard on all Convertibles--optional all others. There were a couple of flavors:
The "standard mirrors" same as 57 and currently available in repop form. These were also optional other models. I bet these were shipped 'in the trunk' because they mount with two easily accessible screws on the front part of the door. They also stick out surprisingly far so would have been a pain for rail and transport truck drivers. Right side mirror optional.
Fancy floating mirror with big chrome eyebrow for fender mounting optional all series as "dealer installed accessory."
Trailmaster spotlight--big rectangular thing--also 'dealer installed.' Can't remember if this thing had a mirror as part of it.
The documentation for this is from the sales literature specifications listing. It does not appear in the color trim book but is in at least one other place.
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Walter,
Something else to consider is the compression ratio and ambient temperature where you live. The high compression 4bbl heads don't make a happy 300 engine on modern gas in a high temperature environment. My 300 2 bbl has been finicky about gas since new and another 65 with the 300 4bbl was even more finicky about octane/brand of gas.
In my experience the cast iron 300 intake manifolds aren't too hard to find. But maybe I've been lucky. I know I've got 2 around here-possibly 3--but I'm not sure where number 3 might be right now.
I would put a wanted to buy on the BCA Buy Sell or the V8Buick.com site and see if someone has one they'd be willing to let go at a decent price. That way you wouldn't have to experiment with the 64/65 mix.
Good luck,
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I played this same game with another vendor a few years ago. Ordered everything from their sample sheet. Came in as a multitoned interior--light dark of same color--none of the parts were from the same vendor/same material. And of course all these guys won't sell yard goods to match so you can't say buy the material and have everything custom done.
The only way around it, especially if trying to match an existing interior is try to get them to send you a sample swatch then match to that. Still doesn't help the dye lot issue but it can get close.
In my case, once the vendor to the vendor managed to read the order form correctly everything came out pretty good.
'63 Riviera dash plaque
in Buick - Post War
Posted
Brian,
I think there was a form included with the Rivs that the new owner mailed back. Their plaque then arrived in the mail a couple weeks later. It also wouldn't surprise me if bigger dealers didn't keep a supply of these plaques and have them engraved/mounted on cars during dealer prep, especially for their 'special' customers.