tom1356
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Posts posted by tom1356
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16 hours ago, Rick Kenway said:
Hello Al,
I have only recently noticed your response to my original post, hence the delay.
Charles David Paige Gibson who purchased the first Whitney steam carriage in 1896 for $2500 was born in 1844.
Gibson had served in the civil war (I’ve had no luck so far finding his war records) and for about 25 years was connected with the United States Secret Service. (This is also a matter for further research). Gibson married Alice Schoppe 8th October 1871. He had an extreme view point regarding religion. He was an officer in the American Protective Association “organised to hunt down Catholics". Elaborating on this further is likely to cause offence to the more sensitive politically correct among us. Gibson very extreme views have justifiably been compared to those of Adolf Hitler.
As is well documented, Gibson patented Whitney’s car claiming it as his own invention. By 1899 Gibson removed Whitney’s engine and boiler and powered the car with an engine of his own design (presently still fitted in the car). The engine was powered by cylinders containing carbonic acid. Carbonic acid is known today as carbon dioxide or dry ice.
In 1900, Gibson revealed his new compressed air car built by the American Vehicle Co. of New York. The picture used is the same one used to promote his acid car, however, the background has been altered. It is likely the acid cylinders were simply filled with compressed air, like his compressed air car. Fake news is nothing new.
The Whitney steam car became the Gibson steam car which became the Gibson carbonic acid carriage which became the American Vehicle Co. Compressed air car. Later,in James Meltons collection, it was thought to be an Offelt.
Gibson died 26th October 1922. In 1930, his widow Alice aged 82 was still alive, living with their daughter Mabel M Gibson aged 54 in New Jersey. In the 1930’s, James Melton purchased the car. Melton, like Gibson, has been an excellent candidate for research.
I’ve owned the car for almost 20 years, competed in several London to Brighton Runs starting as number two. ( oldest go first). The excellent performance ensures this car leads for a short time before later more powerful cars overtake.
The car is looking good, patinated with a copy of the original hood recently fitted. Ive been thinking I’ve done all I wanted to with the car, it might be time to repatriate it where it can be appreciated as a significant part of American pioneering history.
Regards,
Rick
Hi Rick,
Would you email me about your car?
tom1356@hotmail.com
Tom
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29 minutes ago, Harrison Searles said:
My grandfather work for Stanly steamer in 1898 and open the London England office for Locomobile. Also he served as a Chief Machinist on the UUS Vulcan during the Spanish American, base out of Boston. His name HNSearles, Herbert Searles,
Bert. Tom if you come across him in your research please text back or email harrison@searlesvideo.com
Thank you
Harrison Searles
Hi Harrison,
What was his role at Stanley in 1898?
Tom
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51 minutes ago, alsfarms said:
Interesting. Do you have any other bits of steam related information?
Al
I am researching George Whitney for a documentary. I only have information about him and the people he worked with.
Tom
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From George's personal collection.
That is George's handwriting.
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On 4/14/2019 at 8:24 PM, Locomobile said:
Al,
Not that I know of. There are a few originals around mostly for static display, and I've never personally seen one. Lots of pics around the internet. Then there are replicas running.
I'm guessing they didn't sell all that many of them to begin with, the Style 2 spindle seat runabout was their big seller.
They offered a motorcycle too, but some historians have written it is doubtful one was ever produced. They also sold the Locoracer, now those they did build and sell. It was essentially a Style 2 narrowed down to a single seat. It was reported that they would do around 70 mph, and there was some push to get a racing class going. I don't think it ever did - big time dangerous. I've studied the attached picture and it looks like it may have had a 1:1 ratio.
The uncanny thing is how many of the engines are still around, everybody in the steamisphere either has one or more, knows where one or more is, or had one or more of them at one time. They produced around 5000, and apparently people over time thought they were unique enough to not let them be scrapped etc.
-Ron
Pic of a Locoracer:
Hi Ron,
Do you know what publication this is from? Is it possible to get a better scan of this page?
Best,
Tom
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21 minutes ago, alsfarms said:
It appears that at Big Island Pond, it is cold enough that your trees are not quite out in leaf yet. It looks like a very pretty area. Is the Whitney shore line home still standing or has it been replaced? What river is this lake tied to?
Al
The only thing left from Whitney is a shed that has collapsed. No one has been in there since the 1970's at least. I have spoken to the owner about a tour this month. I don't think there is anything in there. Georges first camp burned down and he rebuilt it. I have the receipt for when the machine shop equipment was sold off. I also have the Engine to Olive that was used at Island pond to run the machine shop. Formerly of the Henry Ford Museum.
The lake is still low. Boating season starts in June. The output is the start of the Spiggot or Spicket river.
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I live five houses down from where George Whitney lived on Big Island Pond.
This is what his stone jetty looks like today. He built it in the early 1900's for the Ida F.
George built 95 boats but only two boats for himself. The Olive, 1882 named for his mother and The Ida F. 1900 named for his daughter.
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3 minutes ago, alsfarms said:
Do you know the location of this photograph?
Al
George's camp "Wild Wood" at Big Island pond Derry NH.
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On 4/1/2021 at 10:24 AM, Locomobile said:
Not to be argumentative, but that doesn't look like him, he had a wide head shape. That's probably him in the right front. This pic was taken around 1902-3. The car looks to be a Stanley, Locomobile, grout or Conrad.
The woman in the foreground resembles him, probably a family member.
Here he is in 1915
(looks like he's wearing the same suit 😁)
Ron
You are correct George is in front right. The woman next to the canoe is Anna Whitney.
This photo has members of the Chase and Whitney families and Mrs Thursby who is sitting closest to the Ida F.
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This is George Eli Whitney (back left) in his car next to his 31' steam yacht Ida F. Island pond Derry NH.
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On 4/7/2019 at 11:06 AM, Locomobile said:
Overview.
Background on Geo Eli Whitney, Boston Tech graduate (MIT), with extensive steam experience designing and building steamboats and steam power plants, incidentally testing one of his boats, he met Sylvester Roper and was hired by same and worked for him for a period of time. George grew up working in his Uncles Amos Whitney's machine shop, uncle Amos went on to form Pratt and Whitney. George as a young teenager built a scale locomotive under his uncles tutelage. He is also the Great grandson of famed inventor Eli Whitney. George had a machine shop in Boston.
Probably by inspiration from Roper who built steam cars and steam bikes earlier, George set out to build his own steam vehicles of which he built several, the "Motorette" was his breakthrough design that ran the best and changed everything. While working in his shop he had many folks that would come by and watch his progress, many would hang around all day - every day, including the Stanley twins, one or both. One guy showed up named Charles DP Gibson and had some ideas about building his own car but had no place to build it. "Whit" as people called him, allowed him to build his car there. Gibson was a afraid people were going to steal his ideas, so he curtained off one corner of the shop and wouldn't allow anyone in there. After a few weeks of clanging and banging, he stepped out from behind the curtain wiping his hands and admitted his car would never run and immediately offered to buy Whitney's motorette which was almost completed. Whitney shot him a ridiculous price of $25.000. To Whitney's surprise, Gibson bought it. Whitney helped him to get the car home. Gibson immediately disassembled the car, made drawings and filed for patent on the design of the car, Whitney filed for patent right after and then turned around and sued Gibson for stealing his design. Whitney won the lawsuit as he had many witnesses to corroborate the events. He won the lawsuit and 40,000 , but lost his wife to Gibson's attorney. Then he had to pay her half of the suit he had just been awarded.
Whitney took another motorette design that he built for GB Upham , a Boston Attorney to "Mechanics Building, Boston" for an expose'. The Stanley's showed up and while the car was stored in a building, they went in and photographed every aspect of the car (they owned Eastman Kodak and were very familiar with cameras and photography). They went back and immediately began building a steamer from the information they had gleaned. They made some changes like wire winding the boiler for higher pressure, and they patented everything they could, essentially refinements to Whitney's steam system. They showed up to the next show at Charles River park, Boston and with 100 pounds higher steam pressure outran everyone in every aspect, they immediately received 200 orders for their car. They only built two or three reportedly "crude" vehicles that looked almost identical to the Motorette, and had parts for another few hundred when John B Walker showed up and offered to buy their automobile business. They allegedly shot him a price of 250,000 dollars, but Walker didn't have that sort of money, so he put out a plea for investor's which attracted the attention of Anzi Barber, the "Asphalt King", he was paving the streets in cities in the northeast and was a millionaire. They acquired the Stanley's automobile business consisting of a few hundred orders and the parts for around 200 cars and the few patents they had, and Whitney went to work for Locomobile as design consultant and that is when the Locomobile design, refined and polished as we know it today was produced. The Whitney patent was granted in 1901 and they turned around and sued the Stanley's because the Stanleys sold them rights to something they didn't own the dominant patent on the vehicle applied for by and now held by Whitney and themselves. Around 1903 the Stanley's began building steamers again with a car that would get around the Whitney patent, but they used the chain drive with adjustable chain stretcher strut and got sued again and that is how the engine wound up on the rear axle and using gears instead of a chain. Eventually, around 1904 Locomobile transitioned away from steam. Whitney left Locomobile in 1905 and went on to design and patent asphalt paving equipment for Barber. The Stanleys continued on building steamers that avoided the Whitney patents. It's a subject of lore that the Stanleys bought the patents back from Locomobile, but I've never found anything to corroborate that, and logically, why would they? Even Whitney admitted in later years, the Stanley had evolved in to a far superior design.
Locomobile at this time had license from Whitney to build the car on his patent, and they proceeded to issue quitclaims to others building on their design or else. Mobile, Milwaukee etc. And why I believe the almost 70 steam car companies closed up shop then or very soon after.
Whitney went to England and licensed Brown's to build his steamer over there.
This is based on handwritten letters from Whitney that appear in the book "Early steam car pioneers" by John Bacon. And magazine articles in the 1900 - 1903 "Horseless age" and "Motor review". Whitney's obituary states that he sold his steam car business to Locomobile for 250 thousand.
If one looks at all the evidence, it's clear to see that the Locomobile was really the Whitney Motorette.
I'll post some of the clippings.
-Ron
This is an amazing history. Thank you so much for posting it. Your car is a gem. Do you have other Whitney related items?
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Locomobile Steam Gathering Place
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It looks like a 1901 style 2 standard.
Congratulations!
try the Locomobile Steam group on facebook.