1955-1956 Packard V8 Question

[furrycritter]

How reliable are the V8's in the 55 and 56 Packards?

[WCraigH]

In late 1954 at the Packard Proving Ground 2-1/2-mile oval in Detroit, a pre-production 1955 Patrician 352CID V-8 went 25,000 miles at an average speed of 104.7mph; see:

Never So Far So Fast

[Guest]

GB: This is coming from an owner of a 1953 Packard. While the Packard is most certainly a very reliable engine to certain degree, the Packard V8 did suffer from some design problems. First and formost is a bing potential problem with the oil pump, causing low oil preasure,, thus causing oil starvation prolbems to the lifters, which tended to make the lifters clatter.

Other possible problems that you may have to deal with if you purchase as 55 or 56 Packard. In 1955 the Packard ultramatic transmision wasn't up to the task of handling the horse power of the V8, by 1956 the made changes made by Packard cured most the transmission problems. Another possible problem can be with the push button gear selector.

Craig: I think your reply to GB's question was no answer at all, and that Brian made the correct reply to the question asked.

Another possible problem area can with the self leveling system of 55 & 56 Packards equiped with torsion bar suspension.

If you are considering purchasing a 55 or 56 Packard and have some patiences and mechinical ability to deal with these potential problems, them go for it.

From what i know of most of the people in this forum most a very helpfull in helping a person deal with these kinds of problems. However from my point of view Brian Harpster seems to know the most about the 55 and 56 Packards.

[WCraigH]

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Quote:</div><div class="ubbcode-body">(snip) Craig: I think your reply to GB's question was no answer at all, and that Brian made the correct reply to the question asked.(snip)</div></div>

Packard53: I posted that terse reply because I have no idea who "GrizzlyBear" actually is. Given that it was his second post, it could be another stealth-PFH "gotcha" type of post. Maybe his post is in good faith, maybe not...

[furrycritter]

It is entirely in good faith. I have loved the 1955 and 1956 Packards since I first knew what they were when I was younger and would like to own one one day.

[furrycritter]

Any 2-door hardtop. However, I am merely asking about the cars. I have no intention at the present to purchase one. Don't have the money or time right now. I am probably the only 21 year old out there who knows what a Packard is. I am not intersted in those 4-cylinder turbocharged pocketrockets that my generation thrives on.I have always liked the bodystyle on all vintage cars. I was asking about the engines because I heard on a History Channel show about Cadillac(can I say that word here?) years ago that the engine got a reputation for breakdowns. I just wanted to know if that was true. One day, I plan to own a collector car.

[WCraigH]

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Quote:</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Any 2-door hardtop. However, I am merely asking about the cars. I have no intention at the present to purchase one. Don't have the money or time right now. I am probably the only 21 year old out there who knows what a Packard is. (snip)</div></div>

Great to hear from you and welcome to the forum. It's good to hear from a younger member considering owning (well, caretaking) a Packard. Please excuse my original terse reply and skepticism. <img src="http://www.aaca.org/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/grin.gif" alt="" />

Please see my website for some additional info. WRT V-8 engine reliability, the only problem I've had with my 55 Pat is "valve recession" (see other threads), but that's apparently due to high speed (85+mph) long duration driving on unleaded gas. Otherwise, my 352CID V-8 has been extremely reliable and seems to have the same power it had originally.

Despite some threads here about lifter noise, my 55 Pat has never experienced that problem. I don't recall a thread or a post about a 55-56 V-8 expiring due to broken "whatever". Lifter noise seems to be the most common complaint, but like I said, not everybody has experienced that. And as BH has posted, there are probable solutions to same.

WRT to other 55-56 issues raised by <span style="font-style: italic">Packard53</span>, yeah, these Packards had new (for the time) technology, e.g., Twin-Ultramatic, Torsion-Level, etc., but on the other hand that's what makes them interesting. Compared to, say, a 55 Chebby or Ford, [color:"red"]ANY Packard (particularly a 1955-56, IMO) will [color:"red"]WOW them at the local car show. And you'll spend lots of time talking to some very nice people. Hey, I've even had some pretty 20-something girls enthraled with my Packard, but of course I am too much of an anachronism to be in their dating regime. <img src="http://www.aaca.org/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/shocked.gif" alt="" />

Griz: enjoy your search for your car; may it be a Packard! <img src="http://www.aaca.org/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/grin.gif" alt="" />

[ChicagoPack]

too bad, I've got a real nice exec hardtop for sale. lol

[Guest imported_PackardV8]

I drove my nearly stone stock 56 Executive 250 miles round trip last saturday mostly at interstate speeds of 75-80 mph. Dave327 who posts here from time to time followed me 1/2 of that distance in his late model Cadillac. I feel like the entire car is very reliable. I'm not afraid of it and i do alot of nite driving too.

The oiling on the V8's is a problem area but can be corrected. I feel like i have my oiling problems corrected. The 55/56 Packards are cars that noone (except for a few of us) ever took seriously enuf to R&D the problems and GOOD corrections for the problems. After nearly 50 years its high time someone made an effort and thats why we are here in this dicussion forum.

[Guest AlK]

B.H.

I have to dis-agree with you slightly. As I am one of the resident old-foggies here, I will agree that for me and most of the other chatters here, it is preferrable to buy one already done, however for this youngster, I think he should find something salvagable and then go thru it stem to stern, think of the knowledg he will gain and the experience that he will have to share wth others of his generation that he can impart that knowledge to. If he and all the rest of his generation bought only those cars that were done eventually there would be no one left who had any knowledge of how to repair them or where what part goes where. Expensive, you bet your bibby it is, more so that buying one already done, absolutly, BUT who of us is in this for the money. I have close to 20K tied up in the "DUKE", could I get that for it, not unless i found the dummy d'jour, but then I never got the car to make money. If that was my aim I would be into (ugh) corvettes, or (double ugh) 55-57 chebbies. At my age now if there is a next car it will be done, but at age 21 good God, think of the wealth of experience he has the time to indulge into by taking one apart and putting it back together.

[Guest AlK]

G.B.

As a P.S. to my response to BH, The only problem you have at the moment is time to work on it. As for money there are many V-8 Packards out there that can be had for 1K or under, that are restorable. For that your main problem is a place to keep it. If you have a solution to that problem then go find a good restorable example of what you like and salt it away until you can work on it.

[55PackardGuy]

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Quote:</div><div class="ubbcode-body">WRT to other 55-56 issues raised by Packard53, yeah, these Packards had new (for the time) technology, e.g., . . .Torsion-Level, etc.</div></div>

G.B.

Just wanted to chime in here and mention that not ALL '55-'56 Packards had Torsion-Level suspension.

In '55 the "Seniors" (which in the 2-door category means the Caribbean and 400) had Torsion-Level (T-L) standard or as a "mandatory option," but it was optional on the "Juniors" (the Clippers such as the aforementioned 2-door Panama and Constellation) which could have conventional suspensions. About 1/3 of all production was non-TL in '55.

In '56 Torsion-Level was standard on all Seniors and a mandatory option on Clipper Custom/Constellation. All Packards and Clippers produced after May 1, 1956 had it standard.

Bottom line: look underneath. If you see springs, it's not a T-L car. There are no badges indicating it.

The T-L suspension cars are much more desirable, as it was a defining feature of these Packards, and is still unique in the automotive world to this day. Never duplicated--never really even imitated--much to the discredit of the automotive industry, which I think should have adopted it in some form.

[Guest 51Patty400]

My 51 400 has 97000 miles on it in the V8. In theroy, the engines were better in the later models.

- Mark

[55PackardGuy]

Brian,

My post was getting long--and was somewhat off-topic--but I STILL should have named my source, which was Kime's "Packard, a History of the Motor Car and the Company." I can't verify the information on the T-L production beyond that point. Your information based on the Trade Letters may be better than theirs.

I included all the details given 'cause I had 'em. Most of it is on page 593, with an additional reference found on page 605 regarding the 1956 models, and the May 1st directive to put T-L on all of the cars.

In general, it seems that Packard did not anticipate the overwhelmingly positive reaction to this new suspension, and could have introduced it in more of an across-the-board manner rather than incrementally, possibly to their advantage.

The main reason I included the caveat about actually LOOKING for the suspension under the car is that Grizzly Bear seems interested in acquiring a '55 or '56, and I wanted to give him a heads-up. Or is it a heads-down in this case? I can imagine that somewhere along the line, someone has purchased what they thought was a T-L car only to be disappointed later.

[WCraigH]

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Quote:</div><div class="ubbcode-body"> Just wanted to chime in here and mention that not ALL '55-'56 Packards had Torsion-Level suspension.

In '55 the "Seniors" (which in the 2-door category means the Caribbean and 400) had Torsion-Level (T-L) standard or as a "mandatory option," but it was optional on the "Juniors" (the Clippers such as the aforementioned 2-door Panama and Constellation) which could have conventional suspensions. About 1/3 of all production was non-TL in '55. </div></div>

And comparing this to Brian's info, there ought to be a few 1955 Patricians and 400s extant with standard suspension. Anybody actually seen one?

Also, as a data point, my Dad once owned a 1955 Clipper Super 4dr with T-L, which according to the above would be a relatively rare combo.

[Guest AlK]

51patty400

you have me confused, are you saying you have a v-8 in your 51 or am i reading it wrong??????

[Guest]

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Quote:</div><div class="ubbcode-body">51patty400

you have me confused, are you saying you have a v-8 in your 51 or am i reading it wrong?????? </div></div>

I sure hope he doesn't say it has a Chebbie 350! <img src="http://www.aaca.org/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" />

[55PackardGuy]

Yes, Craig, according to Kimes, the T-L was "made available" on Clipper Supers last in '55, after it had been offered on the Custom--for a very reasonable reported cost of $150! Your Dad got a good deal on this option, if he bought it new.

I, too, am interested in any reports of actual sightings of '55 or '56 Seniors without T-L.

And finally on the topic of this thread regarding "how good is the Packard V8" I will ask:

Has anyone heard any stories or had experiences of real catastrophic breakdowns with these engines, as in broken rods, pistons or cranks?

It's my feeling that the basic structure of the internals of the Packard V8 is about as close to the proverbial "bullet-proof" as you can get. That's not to say they don't have problems, but when they do it rarely seems to result in a "trashed" engine.

I really think you can see a lot of Packard engineering's experience with high performance/high durability marine and aircraft engines in this effort.

[Guest AlK]

a friend of mine bought a 55 panama that was running. he did the brakes and while test driving it around the block it spun a bearing. he tore the engine down to rebuild it and found that some one in the past had welded the block. he bought another 320 but the cylinders on that one were egg shaped indicating a lot of miles and wear. he has since sold the car and all of the engine parts to another friend of mine up in atlanta.

[Guest 51Patty400]

Yup. V8. I have the original Tranny and Thunderbolt inline 8 on a skid. They are on their way out to be rebuilt.

The guy that owned it before me changed the motor and reset the odomitor. He doesn't remember but thinks it came from a Clipper.

- Mark

[Guest AlK]

Mark

Well at least it's a Packard engine. That is a better scenario than the guy that bought then butchered my wifes 51 Pat. Are you going to put the original 8 back in when it is rebuilt.

Alk

[Guest imported_PackardV8]

BH wrote:

"I've often wondered if that failure could have been the result of hydro-lock, which might be more likely if I were to discover that the crank is bent, but someone else once posted a similar failure here (even citing an indentical crack in the block) - as the result of an oil pump problem."

Its not clear to me what u mean. If a hydro lock occurred do u mean fron engine coolant or oil??? If its coolant then i do not see how the oil pump could cause that. U mentioned a crack in the block. Where is the crACK???

Check the piston on the bent rod to see if the ring lands have collapsed and pinched at least the top ring real tite. If the rod actualy broke or cracked then that was probably due to over winding the engine especialy if there are BLUE areas around the crack or break. A sudden bend of the rod (hydro lock) would probably only bend the rod and NOT crack nor break it. Cracks and breakage is nearly always due to over stressing the rod over a period of time. Constant flexing of the rod due to over revving will cause it to eventualy break. Of course if it suddenly over revved for just one run and held there then that can break it with out much bluing.

I just dont understand what the oil pump would have to do with bending the rod unless the pump suddenly failed to supply oil in which case there would be evidence of bearing failure thru out the engine ESpECIALy the front most main and rod.

Even upon over revving (up to a point) the break usualy does not occur until a sudden backing off of the accelerator pedal. Thats why it is important not to back off real fast when u hear an engine letting loose. Back off of the accelerator slowly and usualy parts will not leave their position enuf to tear up alot of other parts.

[Guest Randy Berger]

Keith, you're right, I remember a fellow here who had a 1954 convertible (not Carib) and he had it wound up around 105 mph and backed off the gas quickly. That crank quivered for an instant and then let go - he had done that a lot - obviously one time too many.

YFAM, Randy Berger

[55PackardGuy]

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Quote:</div><div class="ubbcode-body">my gut feeling is that T-L was frequently ordered by dealers and/or pushed very hard by the factory on the Senior cars.</div></div>

Brian, the Kimes book agrees with your "gut" about how T-L got on so many cars, ("pushed very hard by the factor on the Seniors"= "required option"). It was really more of a marketing "pull" that apparently accounted for its spread to the other models, as customers really liked it. Build a better mousetrap...

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Quote:</div><div class="ubbcode-body">only a complete audit of production records would tell the whole story</div></div>

Apparently this is not possible, as even accurate production TOTALS are hazy for model years '54-58, much less figures on options--according to Kimes, of course.

Yes, I must admit I find the Kimes book a pretty good resource, although it covers way more than the 55th and 56th series, so there are limits to the depth and breadth of information for those years. However, I don't think they left a WHOLE lot out for "space" considerations. The thing is 828 large-format pages with pretty small print... but it's generous on the photos as well.

The only reason I own it is I bought it for my Dad as a present, and "inherited" it after he passed away. He got a lot of enjoyment out of it, too.

[55PackardGuy]

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Quote:</div><div class="ubbcode-body">I just think it would be impossible to cover every detail in Packard's grand history in a little over 800 pages. </div></div>

Brian,

Agreed. Although I think Kimes made the best attempt so far. <img src="http://www.aaca.org/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" />

It would be great to get ahold of those production figures. You'd think one of the clubs or publications could get to them if they chose to try.

[55PackardGuy]

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Quote:</div><div class="ubbcode-body">In late 1954 at the Packard Proving Ground 2-1/2-mile oval in Detroit, a pre-production 1955 Patrician 352CID V-8 went 25,000 miles at an average speed of 104.7mph; see:

Never So Far So Fast </div></div>

Craig,

I don't find this answer to be too "terse" at all. In fact, it doesn't give the whole story: 104.7 mph average speed INCLUDING ALL STOPS. <img src="http://www.aaca.org/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/grin.gif" alt="" />

[WCraigH]

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Quote:</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Craig,

I don't find this answer to be too "terse" at all. In fact, it doesn't give the whole story: 104.7 mph average speed INCLUDING ALL STOPS. <img src="http://www.aaca.org/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/grin.gif" alt="" /> </div></div>

Which leads one to wonder what was the actual [color:"red"] RUNNING speed if approx 105mph was the [color:"red"] AVERAGE speed?

Doing some math: 25,000 miles at 105mph takes 238 hours. The 1955 Patrician has a gas tank capacity of 20 gallons. Conservatively figuring 10 mile per gallon at wide open throttle means a stop every 200 miles which means 125 stops. If each stop took 2 minutes (this is pre-NASCAR pitstop days <img src="http://www.aaca.org/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/grin.gif" alt="" />), that's 250 minutes (4.167 hours) at zero speed. So, of the 238 hours, let's say 4 hours were at zero speed. That means that 25,000 miles were covered in 234 hours of actual driving. So: 25000/234 = [color:"red"] 106.84 mph

If the average pit stop took more than 2 minutes or the average mileage was less than 10 mpg, then the results of this first order calculation would increase the running speed even more. For instance, if the mpg were 8 mpg and the avg pit stop took 3 minutes, then the running speed would be [color:"red"] 108.7 mph.

If course, I haven't figured in how long it took to get to the running speed (0-100 plus mph) or slow down at the pit stop. These would increase the running speed even more. But considering that, I expect that the pre-production Patrician was running about 110 mph most of the time. Very impressive! <img src="http://www.aaca.org/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/grin.gif" alt="" /> <img src="http://www.aaca.org/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/grin.gif" alt="" />

[Guest 51Patty400]

Yes. The guy where I have the car would like to trade me the v8 for a thunderbolt straight 8 (gave me a year warranty on it). He offered no charge to me at all for changing the motors etc. He must need the v8 something bad. I think its a good deal, so I told him to change it.

The orignal engine could take a while before I can find a place to have it looked at to get fixed and winter is fast aproaching so it is unlikely i'll have the original one back before next summer.

Anyone want a winter project an apprentice? Al?

- Mark

[Guest Randy Berger]

Mark, Are you getting a 9-main bearing engine?? If not, you may want to think about the trade for a while. The 51 Patrician runs a nine-main not five-main bearing engine. I believe they are both 327. Anyone else more familiar with 51-54 straight-eights want to jump in here??

YFAM, Randy Berger

[WCraigH]

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Quote:</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Here's a view from the opposite side... (snip) Catastrophic enough? </div></div>

Ouch!!! <img src="http://www.aaca.org/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/shocked.gif" alt="" /> <img src="http://www.aaca.org/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/shocked.gif" alt="" />

And then you have the subtle, yet catastrophic failure. The 352 in my 1956 Exec 4dr parts car has a serious crack next to one of the "freeze plugs" in the block. In this case, the term "freeze plug" is appropos since it spend most of its dormant life in the high desert of So Cal, which (for you Easterners) actually can get below freezing at night in the winter, albeit without much precip. My supposition is that before it was parked, it had nothing but H2O in the cooling system.

[Guest Albert]

54patty400 I have a running 54 327 straight 8 in the backyard if you are having problems with yours and a 3speed behind it. As well as many other bits and pieces as I bought another 54 Clipper Deluxe as a parts car for my 54 Clipper Special.

[Guest 51Patty400]

Good question... I just left him a msg on his cell. I'll let you know what he says.

- Mark

[Guest Albert]

I have a 3cyl chev sprint in the driveway that the rod looks just like that, even the piston is the same, looks like the rod end let go on the downward part of the stroke, broke, crankshaft hit the piston, and then the rod. needles to say i have to now source another motor for my friend, may try one of the local scrap yards but i can easly lift this motor the block and crank with on hand, unlike the Packard.

[Guest 51Patty400]

Thanks Albert.

I have no idea what the condition of the original motor is. I'll know so much more when I sit down with the mechanic on Monday afternoon. I'll keep you posted.

- Mark

[Guest imported_Packards1]

My 1956 400 is 48 years old and the engine has never been worked on. I drove my car to Toronto (600 miles round trip) for the National Packard Convention this summer and it ran great with no problems. Joel

[Guest Randy Berger]

Joel, how many miles are on your 400?

YFAM, Randy Berger

[Mr.Pushbutton]

Hi guys, I'm new here. I have owned a '56 400 for 23 years, and have since worked on many comperable cars of that vintage. IMHO, the later 55's and almost all '56 engines were strong, reliable engines. I have friends who have experienced lifter noise, and they found the trouble to be excessive wear on the oil pump input shaft, which allowed some air to be pumped into the oil. A rebuilt pump fixed that problem. I'm sure much has been said in the past on this forum concerning Packard's relative strengths and weaknesses in '55-'56, and how good the V-8 engine is in spite of any percieved deficiencies thay had relative to their (deeper pocketed) competition. A number of us have models that have given great service, many trouble free miles. One thing that haunts these models is the fact that, like it or not, we live in a "big three" world here in the USA (mentally), and the '55-'56 models with a twin ultramatic, pushbutton drive and (especially) torsion level suspension do not look (or ride!) like anything the big three produced. Unfortunately, rather than appreciating the differences the "big three only" type label it as weird, "not invented here-must be wrong" etc. As to torsion level, it is a superb suspension system that finds all surviving examples still standing tall, up in the air (can't say that for the Cadillac "air suspension" cars) and still riding fine. It has the tightest, least "nautical" feel (body roll) of any 50's car I have ever driven (that's a lot). Once again, there is some prejudice--special tools are required to safely service the loaded suspension bars, and not just any corner grease monkey can dive right in and diagnose and fix one. The electrical gagets on these cars are complicated for that era, and in my years of experience, the worse monkey work of all is committed on vintage car electrical systems. Some was done by the corner gas station back when, some has been done recently. There is nothing that comlicated about the torsion level electrics, you just need a mechanic/technician with a strong understanding of electronics.

Which brings me to: pushbutton control of the ultramatic trans--you may notice that my screen name is "Mr. Pushbutton". I have been fixing '56 Packard pushbutton units for over 16 years. This system is reliable, providing everything is in proper order. The Achillies heel of the system is the contact fingers, located on the motor actuator down on the trans. I manufacture new contact fingers,and test rebuilt units on a special test board I have made for these units. I'm proud to say that I have never had a "comeback" due to electrical or mechanical problems (I had a local job on a Caribbean where I fixed the system, we tested the car, and could not get certain gear positions to "locate". I figured out that the shifter was doing everything it was designed to do, and that the control valve shaft was excessively wallowed out, causing gross error inside the control valve). Fear not the V-8 Packard. There are still plenty of them out on the road, a miracle considering their low production numbers. There is a caring community of fellow owners out there giving support (aided greatly by the internet). You will stand out at your local car show. One last word of advice re: my comments about the "big three" mentality as it relates to your potential purchase--be wary of the local engine shop/auto electric/tras shop the has rebuilt/fixed "thousands of Chevys" or other big three car. They most often will compare the Packard to what they already know, and try to make it closer to what they already understand. This may or may not work, and will affect the originality of your car. Appreciate Packards for what they are (solid, reliable, class cars) and approach their repair, care and upkeep that way.

"the man who owns one", John

[Guest imported_Packards1]

Randy, I have a little over 32,000 on the car. I bought the car with 30,200 four years ago from the original owner. There are not too many of them (original owners)left, he was 86 at the time. I won't drive it to the Boston meet next year but it will of course be at the 2006 national meet here in Detroit. Joel

[Guest AlK]

NOW THAT IS THE KIND OF INFO TO START A MONDAY MORNING WITH!!!!! Welcome to the forum mr pushbutton. I do not own one, mine being 2 lever action 55 Patricians, but several of the members here do and I am sure they will be contacting you shortly.

[Guest imported_PackardV8]

Mr PB wrote:

"The Achillies heel of the system is the contact fingers, located on the motor actuator down on the trans. I manufacture new contact fingers,..."

Do u make the contact fingers for the back of the push button unit up on the steering column???