Guest imported_Speedster Posted April 2, 2008 Share Posted April 2, 2008 <div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: 34PackardRoadsta</div><div class="ubbcode-body"> There are definitely two leads that leave the gen, and one of those leads I know comes from a brush. </div></div> But didn't the other of those 2 wires connect to case ground at the cutout-relay mounting screw?That's the way my '29 800s are. (That ground wire doesn't even need insulation on it, since it can only short to the case, which is ground.) If so, I think the 840 is wired the same as the 800? The main difference in the 2 versions is the way the ground side of the field-winding gets to ground. In the older version the field-winding is connected to an internal fuse and then to ground internally and in the newer version a wire is brought out to and thru the regulator and fuse to ground. So, it's where the other end of field-winding, (not the end to brush,) is connected, that determines which type it is. I think another way to tell is that If it has an Internal Fuse it requires a simple cutout, and if it doesn't it requires a regulator with built-in Fuse. Does the 840 have a built-in Fuse-holder? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
34PackardRoadsta Posted April 2, 2008 Author Share Posted April 2, 2008 There was no cut-out present when the gen was shipped to me. Based on the photos, there are two wires exiting the gen, one from the ground post on the brush holder, at about 1330 on the photo above, if 1200 is up. The other originates at the main brush at 1200. The second field winding wire either exits the gen or goes someplace else. It was broken off inside the gen, so I have no way of knowing where it went. If the gen is like the 865, then it too exits the gen and goes to a fused regulator. I have one of these regulators. If not, where does it go?Owen, any chance you have found a diagram for a CD 840? I have looked through the service letter collection that I have, and can find nothing about the switch from the 840 to the 865 and any differences between them. All I find are discussions about the red tag gen for 1934.Tom Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
34PackardRoadsta Posted April 2, 2008 Author Share Posted April 2, 2008 There was no cut-out present when the gen was shipped to me. Based on the photos, there are two wires exiting the gen, one from the ground post on the brush holder, at about 1330 on the photo above, if 1200 is up. The other originates at the main brush at 1200. The second field winding wire either exits the gen or goes someplace else. It was broken off inside the gen, so I have no way of knowing where it went. If the gen is like the 865, then it too exits the gen and goes to a fused regulator. I have one of these regulators. If not, where does it go?Owen, any chance you have found a diagram for a CD 840? I have looked through the service letter collection that I have, and can find nothing about the switch from the 840 to the 865 and any differences between them. All I find are discussions about the red tag gen for 1934.Tom Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest imported_Speedster Posted April 2, 2008 Share Posted April 2, 2008 Please read my last post, I think we uploaded at the same time. I added a question about fuse. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest imported_Speedster Posted April 2, 2008 Share Posted April 2, 2008 Please read my last post, I think we uploaded at the same time. I added a question about fuse. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
34PackardRoadsta Posted April 2, 2008 Author Share Posted April 2, 2008 In looking at photos and then, this is where I stand. Still trying to figure out the field coil lead marked with the blue question mark. Either it just goes to ground or it goes to a fused regulator.Owen?Ken, thanks for the pointers on the painting. I will give it a try!Thank you to everyone for your help.Cheers,Tom Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
34PackardRoadsta Posted April 2, 2008 Author Share Posted April 2, 2008 In looking at photos and then, this is where I stand. Still trying to figure out the field coil lead marked with the blue question mark. Either it just goes to ground or it goes to a fused regulator.Owen?Ken, thanks for the pointers on the painting. I will give it a try!Thank you to everyone for your help.Cheers,Tom Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
34PackardRoadsta Posted April 2, 2008 Author Share Posted April 2, 2008 Rick,Ah, geez, we keep posting at the same time. Yes, this does have an internal fuse, that goes against the ground post (the yellow post in the figure above). So both the ground post wire and field wire then go to ground on the outside of the casing? Hmmm, interesting. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
34PackardRoadsta Posted April 2, 2008 Author Share Posted April 2, 2008 Rick,Ah, geez, we keep posting at the same time. Yes, this does have an internal fuse, that goes against the ground post (the yellow post in the figure above). So both the ground post wire and field wire then go to ground on the outside of the casing? Hmmm, interesting. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest imported_Speedster Posted April 2, 2008 Share Posted April 2, 2008 Okay, so that tells me that the 840 is wired the same as the 800, which requires a simple cutout-relay.And your wire with question-mark (field wire) should go to the internal fuse-holder, not to the outside.Only the brush wire and a ground wire go to the outside.Brush wire is connected to cutout terminal and the ground wire is connected to cutout mounting screw. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest imported_Speedster Posted April 2, 2008 Share Posted April 2, 2008 Okay, so that tells me that the 840 is wired the same as the 800, which requires a simple cutout-relay.And your wire with question-mark (field wire) should go to the internal fuse-holder, not to the outside.Only the brush wire and a ground wire go to the outside.Brush wire is connected to cutout terminal and the ground wire is connected to cutout mounting screw. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
34PackardRoadsta Posted April 2, 2008 Author Share Posted April 2, 2008 Great! Thanks tons for the help.Tom Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
34PackardRoadsta Posted April 2, 2008 Author Share Posted April 2, 2008 Great! Thanks tons for the help.Tom Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest imported_Speedster Posted April 2, 2008 Share Posted April 2, 2008 So, we have determined that both versions were used in '30.The early 840 required a cutout and the later 865 required a regulator. It must have been fairly early in the production year that they started using the 865, tho ? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest imported_Speedster Posted April 2, 2008 Share Posted April 2, 2008 So, we have determined that both versions were used in '30.The early 840 required a cutout and the later 865 required a regulator. It must have been fairly early in the production year that they started using the 865, tho ? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
34PackardRoadsta Posted April 2, 2008 Author Share Posted April 2, 2008 Just to confirm, this is the final wiring diagram, right?Cheers,Tom Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
34PackardRoadsta Posted April 2, 2008 Author Share Posted April 2, 2008 Just to confirm, this is the final wiring diagram, right?Cheers,Tom Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest imported_Speedster Posted April 2, 2008 Share Posted April 2, 2008 No, you don't want that field wire going directly to ground, you want it to go thru the fuse to ground. That end of field gets a connection ONLY Thru the Fuse. The outside of fuse-holder is grounded already, since it mounts to case, so only the one field wire gets connected to the holder's center terminal. The fuse is there to prevent excessive current if the field windings get shorted somehow. I'm not sure where the ground wire, that goes out to cutout base, connects inside the case. It shouldn't really matter where it connects as long as it's a solid connection to case. The external wire doesn't even need to be there as long as there is a good electrical connection between gen's case and the cutout's base (nothing like paint insulating them from each other). A good ground connection is needed at cutout's base, since there are 2 relay coil-windings inside the cutout and one side of one of the coils connects to the mounting base. (one coil winding opens the contacts and the other winding closes the contacts) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest imported_Speedster Posted April 2, 2008 Share Posted April 2, 2008 No, you don't want that field wire going directly to ground, you want it to go thru the fuse to ground. That end of field gets a connection ONLY Thru the Fuse. The outside of fuse-holder is grounded already, since it mounts to case, so only the one field wire gets connected to the holder's center terminal. The fuse is there to prevent excessive current if the field windings get shorted somehow. I'm not sure where the ground wire, that goes out to cutout base, connects inside the case. It shouldn't really matter where it connects as long as it's a solid connection to case. The external wire doesn't even need to be there as long as there is a good electrical connection between gen's case and the cutout's base (nothing like paint insulating them from each other). A good ground connection is needed at cutout's base, since there are 2 relay coil-windings inside the cutout and one side of one of the coils connects to the mounting base. (one coil winding opens the contacts and the other winding closes the contacts) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
34PackardRoadsta Posted April 3, 2008 Author Share Posted April 3, 2008 OK, I have changed the wiring diagram in the above post to match what I think you have described. Yes?Cheers,Tom Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
34PackardRoadsta Posted April 3, 2008 Author Share Posted April 3, 2008 OK, I have changed the wiring diagram in the above post to match what I think you have described. Yes?Cheers,Tom Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest imported_Speedster Posted April 3, 2008 Share Posted April 3, 2008 Yes, Better. (That is, if the yellow thing is the terminal on the fuse-holder?) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest imported_Speedster Posted April 3, 2008 Share Posted April 3, 2008 Yes, Better. (That is, if the yellow thing is the terminal on the fuse-holder?) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
34PackardRoadsta Posted April 3, 2008 Author Share Posted April 3, 2008 Yes, the yellow tab is the fuse connection. The little 's' symbol is for the fuse. In going back over posts in other topics related to this freaking generator, I came across Owen_Dyneto's list of generators and cut-outs. For the CD 840 and 865, he listed the 'regulator' as part 20100, what he calls a 'partial control' regulator as it contains a thermostatic relay along with a cut-out. This also corresponds to what I see in the parts book.So, could I wire the gen with a 'partial control' regulator by skipping the internal fuse and wiring it like the 865 pictured in the diagram attached? From the 'official' wiring diagrams, the only difference between them is the field ground going through the relay/fuse instead of the fuse mounted on the brush holder holder. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
34PackardRoadsta Posted April 3, 2008 Author Share Posted April 3, 2008 Yes, the yellow tab is the fuse connection. The little 's' symbol is for the fuse. In going back over posts in other topics related to this freaking generator, I came across Owen_Dyneto's list of generators and cut-outs. For the CD 840 and 865, he listed the 'regulator' as part 20100, what he calls a 'partial control' regulator as it contains a thermostatic relay along with a cut-out. This also corresponds to what I see in the parts book.So, could I wire the gen with a 'partial control' regulator by skipping the internal fuse and wiring it like the 865 pictured in the diagram attached? From the 'official' wiring diagrams, the only difference between them is the field ground going through the relay/fuse instead of the fuse mounted on the brush holder holder. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest imported_Speedster Posted April 3, 2008 Share Posted April 3, 2008 I think it should work, I don't see any other differences. If you have a good one of those regulators, it's definitly worth a try. It can always be changed back, if need be. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest imported_Speedster Posted April 3, 2008 Share Posted April 3, 2008 I think it should work, I don't see any other differences. If you have a good one of those regulators, it's definitly worth a try. It can always be changed back, if need be. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
34PackardRoadsta Posted April 3, 2008 Author Share Posted April 3, 2008 Well, then that is what I will do. I can also see no harm, but I wanted to make sure. Thanks tons for all your help. I will let you know if it works. This may be awhile, however, as I need to change out the mounting bracket that meshes with the timing chain. The current bracket is some sort of amalgam of parts to make the 34 generator fit. So, I need to pull the radiator, etc. AGAIN. Aiigh, need to get more organized in my approach!Tom Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
34PackardRoadsta Posted April 3, 2008 Author Share Posted April 3, 2008 Well, then that is what I will do. I can also see no harm, but I wanted to make sure. Thanks tons for all your help. I will let you know if it works. This may be awhile, however, as I need to change out the mounting bracket that meshes with the timing chain. The current bracket is some sort of amalgam of parts to make the 34 generator fit. So, I need to pull the radiator, etc. AGAIN. Aiigh, need to get more organized in my approach!Tom Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest imported_Speedster Posted April 3, 2008 Share Posted April 3, 2008 I've also learned from this that the CD-840 is usable on earlier year models, (without modification), like my '29s.I had passed on buying one on eBay, for my spare engine, since I didn't know if it would work or not as a replacement for the CD-800. Now, I Won't do That again. Of course everyone that reads this will know about it also and will be Bidding against me, next time. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest imported_Speedster Posted April 3, 2008 Share Posted April 3, 2008 I've also learned from this that the CD-840 is usable on earlier year models, (without modification), like my '29s.I had passed on buying one on eBay, for my spare engine, since I didn't know if it would work or not as a replacement for the CD-800. Now, I Won't do That again. Of course everyone that reads this will know about it also and will be Bidding against me, next time. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest BigKev Posted April 3, 2008 Share Posted April 3, 2008 Tom,Just curious what software you are using to draw those diagrams with? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest BigKev Posted April 3, 2008 Share Posted April 3, 2008 Tom,Just curious what software you are using to draw those diagrams with? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest imported_Speedster Posted April 3, 2008 Share Posted April 3, 2008 I was wondering about that also??? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest imported_Speedster Posted April 3, 2008 Share Posted April 3, 2008 I was wondering about that also??? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
34PackardRoadsta Posted April 3, 2008 Author Share Posted April 3, 2008 <div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: BigKev54Clipper</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Tom,Just curious what software you are using to draw those diagrams with? </div></div>I use a Macintosh, and the software is called OmniGraffle. It is one of the finest technical drawing apps for ammatures out there. http://www.omnigroup.com Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
34PackardRoadsta Posted April 3, 2008 Author Share Posted April 3, 2008 <div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: BigKev54Clipper</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Tom,Just curious what software you are using to draw those diagrams with? </div></div>I use a Macintosh, and the software is called OmniGraffle. It is one of the finest technical drawing apps for ammatures out there. http://www.omnigroup.com Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest BigKev Posted April 3, 2008 Share Posted April 3, 2008 It's a MAC only software. It's basically MACs better looking cousin to Visio. Can't win them all I guess. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest BigKev Posted April 3, 2008 Share Posted April 3, 2008 It's a MAC only software. It's basically MACs better looking cousin to Visio. Can't win them all I guess. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest imported_Speedster Posted April 3, 2008 Share Posted April 3, 2008 Yep, I had High Hopes as well. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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