3800 II Supercharged Engine Swap

[Guest cdoersom]

Anybody contemplating a SeriesII Supercharged engine swap, this might be a candidate.<BR> <A HREF="http://cgi.ebay.aol.com/aw-cgi/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&item=600386932" TARGET=_blank>http://cgi.ebay.aol.com/aw-cgi/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&item=600386932</A> <P>Chuck

[Rawja]

Has anyone ever sucessfully gotten one of these in and working on an '88 or '89? I would love to do it, but I'm not willing to lose diagnostic functionality of my screen.

[Don B.]

Looks interesting but I think it is a bad <BR>move without the H.D. trans to go with it.<BR>I don't know of any way to intergrate the<BR>PCM to replace the ECM,BCM,and GCC to '88<BR>platform.

[Guest]

Would the electronics be easier on a '90-'91? What if the donor was a Riviera?

[padgett]

Think we have been through this before but may have been via e-mail.<P>Agree that the best swap would include the s/c engine's 4T65E transmission, the 4T60(E) used in the Reatta was designed for considerably less torque and I understand that even the 65 may be marginal for the application (best would be a 4T80 but is not used with 3800s).<P>Now all of this is theoretical because my hard data ends with the 1992 model year (my latest car) but the basic problem is that cars from 1995 and later have an industry-standard OBD-II (on board diagnostics) data<BR>steam that is different from the P4 data stream used by the Reatta.<P>Is something like the difference between a 53K v.90 modem and a DSL modem - the both plug into a telephone line but they cannot talk to each other.<P>The problem is that the Body Control Module BCM) receives data such as the coolant temperature, RPM, and MPH from the ECM via the data stream. The BCM then converts this to information that is displayed on the instrument panel. The BCM omly understands a P4 data stream and more specifically is matched to the data stream output by that particular PROM (why BigRog had the problems with his MPH display until installing matched BCM/ECM Proms).<P>So you need a P4 compatable data stream and the information needs to be in the right order for the ECM-BCM system to work properly.<P>To make a long story slightly shorter, I <span style="font-weight: bold"><span style="font-style: italic">think</span></span> what will work is a 93-94 Supercharged 3800 ECM (P4) which understands E transmissions & modify with an engine control program/maps from the s/c Series II ECM and a data stream order appropriate for the Reatta's BCM (each year appears to be slightly different but I have only studied the 88 ANCX/ANBM combination as yet).<P>It *might* be possible to convert the SII ecm from OBD II to P4 but this is not as likely. A third possibility would be to create an OBD-II -> P4 translator but this would be expensive/difficult. Modifying the BCM to understand OBD-II would be equally difficult.<P>I have the expertise and software necessary but little time. What I need to find is a young programmer willing to learn the 68HC11 code who does not have a life.

[Rawja]

C'mon Padgett you seem to be the sort who enjoys challenges.... I do as well, but this is way outside of my limited abilities. Just think of the glory and adulation you?d be due.... You'd be the Alan Turing of the Reatta Message Board...in addition to being it's chief science officer of course.

[Guest]

I've spent the last month getting my 89 in good running condition, and it now runs perfectly, but with 160,000 miles on it, I know in a few years, I'll be looking at an engine swap. I would like to use the SC3800 series II engine with HD trans. <BR>My car has 0 rust anywhere and I love the car, so I intend to keep it operational for a long time. <BR>Has the group ever pitched in to fund a project. If there were enough of us willing to pay a small fee for someone to develop the prom change, it could be in everyones best interest?

[padgett]

My problem is no free time (of course if I am retired next week that might go away) - I spent over 250 days last year away from home (am scared to actually total it up).<P>This is not a trivial task since there are so few people around with the necessary expertise.<P>The best answer would be if someone could develop a pipeline into Buick and obtain architecture, ICD, and commented source code on the ECM and BCM used in the Reatta (just the BCM would be a big help, already have a lot on the ECM) plust the same for the s/c Series II and while at it the s/c 1993-94 ECM (understand there was a s/c 3800 in that period but evidently is not in "E" bodies).<P>The next best would be to hire someone already deep into it with the time, motivation, and expertise: someone like the crew at <a href="http://www.tunercat.com">Tuner Cat</a>. I could supply a Reatta ECM, BCM, and PROM dumps to an effort like that.<P>Keep in mind that as soon as you talk "supercharged" you are exceeding the torque capacity of the 4T60(E) transmission used in the Reatta and need at least a 4T65(E) (see <a href="http://www.thrasher-ep.com/tech_htm/differential.shtm">Thrasher</a> for more info). Note particularly the difference in the 4T60 and 4T65 gears. Someone would really need to want to do the conversion.

[Richard S]

Padgett, in view of the fact that the Allante was developed about the same time as the Reatta, is it likely the 89-92 Allante setup [4.5L v8/tranny] speak P4? My 87 is vastly more responsive than the Reatta, and it's only a 4.1L. Since the 4.9 v8 Reatta has been done already, and should be pretty darn quick, I'm still not sure if the s/c 3.8 is worth the investment in time.

[Rawja]

OK then, are we putting Caddy 4.9L V8s in? While it may lack the historical and poetic Buickness of the 3.8, it certainly has more oomph with 200hp, but more importantly 275 Lb-ft of torque. Would this engine with the 4T60-E transmission be adaptable to be compatible with the Reatta's computers? <P>-OR-<P><BR>I would be willing to contribute towards a group "project and development" Mule... Something like this.. we get a Reatta in poor condition (super high miles or blown engine/transmission would be perfect) and hire one of those conversion companies to work out the kinks of getting a Series II SC in and working on that one. We sell the project car on Ebay (to partially recoup losses) and end up with either a kit and manual for conversion or a shop with the expertise to perform the swap with minimal complications. If we could assure the shop in question a minimum number of orders, I would think that we could negotiate a relatively low (or no) cost development of a prototype. <P><BR>Whaddya Think?

[Guest]

What kind of gain in horsepower do these 4.9l engines provide? My only thoughts are if we're going to be swapping engines why not get one that is more popular or atleast more powerful. It costs enough to first of all find these engines, and then make them able to work in the Reatta. I think people only want to have to change the engine once. The 3.8SC looked pretty darn fast in that GrandPrix on the thrasher sight, but if we're going to go to all aluminum V-8s the 300HP 4.6L Northstar of today certainly is worth the effort if it can be done, considering all the difficulties that come with trying just to get an extra 50Hp, why not go for the extra 135HP? If you are concerned about the extra power don't hit the gas so hard. My only peeve is that we're actually talking about replacing an engine that already has no speed parts and replacing it with an even more obscure engine that may not be enough and then we're in the same boat again. Anyways my thoughts. . . 3.8 II SC because there are parts out there or 4.6 Northstar because its also lighter and is already at 300hp. Thanks for your input on the sub frame connectors and L.S.Diff.

[Guest EDBS0]

The stock 3.8SC in my Riviera has 240hp stock. I have done upgrades, a CAI adds 8 to 10hp and a 3.4 supercharger pully adds 25 to 30hp. The result is a bullet proof engine with some 280hp <BR>Robert

[Guest]

As always, where you come out depends on what you are willing to put in and what you want. My 4.1L Allante will not blow off a supercharged Riviera, nor will it keep up with my small block Jag. It is, however, nimble and quick. If you want a street racer, that ain't the way to go. If you want something that HAS ALREADY BEEN DONE and will get you some respect on the road, the 4.9 in a Reatta will definately do that. Having said that, I must repeat that I have not seen the 4.9 V8 conversion, so I don't know how tractable it really is. Owner claimed on this forum that everything works. If we are all relying on the possiblity that poor Padgett, who is an infrequent visitor to his own home, is going to work out the 3.8 swap, we are asking far more than we have a right. I am thankful we have his, and several others, unique expertise in programming matters. Like he says, the rest will have await his retirement. In the meanwhile, for those whose engines are creeping toward and beyond 200K, copying a done deal is likely to be far less expensive and more problem free than tackling the ECM/BCM problems that come with the 3.8.

[Don B.]

First of all any Buick GS person knows to<BR>make a Buick go fast you will pay 3 times <BR>as much as a chevy man. <BR>For anyone interested my 3800 S/C killed<BR>the factory Reatta trans. It still runs<BR>and shifts fine but sounds like I'm<BR>dragging a 55 gallon drum.<BR>I found a trans guy to rebuild the Reatta trans with 93 S/C Park Ave trans parts<BR>and gears. <p>[ 01-22-2002: Message edited by: Don B. ]

[Guest]

The series I may be what you guys are looking for. It's computer system is similar to the Reattas, especially the 91s. You definately want to go with at least a 4T60E tranny, suposedly a minivan is the best donor. The series II into a 90-91 could be done with a 4T65E-HD tranny, just not sure what all the BCM is responsible for in them. Otherwise there is a guy I met, usually on the board, with a 4.9 powered Caddy.<P>Here's the actual power figures, keep in mind you could get more power from the series II and maybe the series I:<P>3800 SC 91-93 205hp 260lb-ft<BR>3800 SC 94-95 225hp 260lb-ft<BR>3800 SC 96-02 240hp 280lb-ft<BR>4.9 V8 205hp 260?lb-ft

[Guest]

Keith, have you actually seen the Reatta with the Caddy? I was hoping a regular contributor could give us an objective description of how that conversion looks/works.

[Guest]

I haven't seen the Jim's Reatta. However I have seen his Lesabre T-type with the same engine. And I have seen some pics of the Reatta. The Lesabre Looked very factory. He used a Caddys computer and tranny, and aparently it was fairly easy. His was a 91 however.

[Guest]

It seems to me that it would be easier to swap the body of a '90-'91 Reatta around the engine, tranny, and electical system of a '95+ Riviera with SC 3800 Series II.

[Coop]

What about a turbo 3.8 out of a Grand National?

[Don B.]

I think that a GN motor would twist the frame<BR>so much you doors couldn't line up.<BR>The trans would fly apart and thru the hood.<BR>But hey it takes a brave man to sit back and<BR>party when everything around him is going to <BR>hell. <BR>Think about this in 1987 the GN was the fast<BR>Armerica production car. Yes faster than the<BR>'87 Vette. A mid size family car beating the<BR>Corvette in the 1/4 mile. <BR>My trans could not take an 50 hp increase.<BR>Try adding over 135 hp you'll be picking up<BR>parts 2 miles behind you. That is if you're<BR>not wrapped around a tree from the torque steer. <BR>The above comments are not to discourage ideas or creativity. Just a warning to study<BR>what you plan to do, and do it right it will save you money, time, and frustation.<BR>GOOD LUCK.

[Guest]

Just how many thm 440s have been broken due to more HP??? I dont believe all the hype. all most if not all 440s are 10 to 15 years old and in need of a rebuild. I cant believe a car company would put a trans in that doesnt have some margin of reliability. What I am saying is that if an engine makes 210 ft-lbs of torque, why would a trans that can bearly handle 210 lbs be put into it. I dont know about you guys but I am going to take my chances, besides I have a friend who can build me a trans with a 3.33:1 at my request IF I destroy it. I am going to add 75 to 100 extra hp to it and see.

[Guest EDBS0]

Trofeo73 I can think of 3 immediately Chrysler, Ford and GM.<BR>Love your rose color glasses!! Robert

[Guest]

Hi Guys, Well I have been reading all your comments and was also wondering about the Grand National 3.8 Turbo. I have a 84 GN and also a complete motor from turbo to pan. I had written someone on the board if they knew if this engine and trans would work with the electronics on the Reatta. I have a black 89 thats looks like new. Have been kicking around the idea of swapping the 3.8 for the 3.8 turbo i have. But am scared all the electronics won't work. What do all of you think regarding the electronics. The Grand National also has a site that is really extensive and has about anything on it relating to a GN.<BR>Will watch the posting for comments from all the wizards out their. Sounds like from the post I have been reading there are quite a few of you guys with alot of expertise with the reatta's.<BR>P.S. Took the GN to the strip just to see what it would do and turned a 13.17 @ 107 MPH. Was a real how quick you can have a 3.8.<p>[ 03-16-2002: Message edited by: stargazer01 ]

[Guest]

You All may laugh at this, but...<BR>Would anyone at Buick, maybe an engineer,<BR>be able to tell us what would be the "best" <BR>engine-tranny combo. to put in? and, what obsticles to overcome? are you rolling on the floor laughing yet?

[padgett]

Am home again until Wed though what happens then is anyone's guess. Just spent two weeks in Clarksburg WVa and never did find much to do (however the chicken fried steak at the Texas Roadhouse will feed a family of four and the dog).<P>That said all of the engines mentioned are a relatively easy swap with one exception: the GN turbo was designed for RWD (with a turbo 200 tranny ?) and would require some mods to convert to a sidewinder.<P>For real power you want at least a 4T65-E and preferably a 4T80-E though I would love to put together a Getrag-Muncie 5 speed version. These live behind SBCs in Fieros. Biggest factor is that the Fiero is about 800 lbs lighter than a Reatta. (e.g. with the same engine, guess which will run away and hide ?)<P>That said, you pull the 3800 and pour enough money in the hole and rear anything will fit.<P>As has been mentioned, the hard pard is making the dashboard work (is digital in all years, just pseudo-analog in 90/91). Here you have three choices:<BR>1) Grab all of the electronics from the donor and spend $300 at Summit for a new set of guages.<P>2) Find a starving GM engineer to provide a complete description (programming, maps) of the BCM (have enough data on the ECM).<P><BR>3) Pay someone with time and expertise to reverse engineer the BCM. Will require a full mockup and logic analyzer to do it right (might have an HP in the back garage).<P>Basis of the BCM is a 27C256 32kx8 PROM so only have 32768 bytes to interpret (actually already have a disassembly - is easy part - but is uncommented and has no map of I/O).<P>Really wish I had the time but will be doing well just to blow a new fam map PROM for mine before summer gets here (and already have all of that information).<P>Keep in mind that it is <span style="font-weight: bold"><span style="font-style: italic">much</span></span> easier to build up a RWD car than a FWD. One of the major problems is that with a RWD can, once you load the rear and plant the tires, power is pretty smooth (easy on the tranny).<P>With a FWD, weight transfer is the wrong way and enough power will unload the front tires and can result in wheel hop, absolutely the worst thing you can do to a tranny short of getting a wheel spinning on dirt and draging it onto pavement.<P>It is not steady torque loads that breaks things, even 400 hp worth for what we are talking about, it is sudden shock loads such as axle tramp. This is how the GM and Fiero people get away with what look like massive overloads with THM 200s and 125s while GTPs scatter beefier trannys all of the time.<P>What a Reatta would need would be ATS not just ABS.<p>[ 03-17-2002: Message edited by: padgett ]

[Guest]

If you don't mind my 2 cents worth,<P>A turbo addition would allow you to keep all your electronics. If you go with a Gale Banks setup with a relatively small turbo, response would be good at low speed and mileage would not take a hit. Gales kits include extra injectors that are plumbed into the intake that are controlled by the turbo computer so the existing computer is unaffected. The increased torque of the turbo only comes in once the car is moving so unless your doing foolish things like clutch drops at a stoplight at 5000 rpm it is a moot point. The torque capacity of your transmission would undoubtably handle the increased power. A transmission cooler would be a necessity mind you.<P>Why not drop these guys a letter? Gale Banks is a good guy who knows his stuff, the company is well known and the products are truly bolt on and contain quality parts. If you have ever seen one of their motorhome installs you would know what I mean. If 3 or 4 or more of you guys dropped them a line I am sure that a kit could be engineered to fit your Reattas and the price would not reflect the development costs because he would then have another kit he could sell. <P>It would seem all you would need is different intake plumbing compared to a GN, what's involved with that--different pipes?. It is an easy way to add 50-75HP, might have to find a bulk discount tire supplier afterward though! Superchargers are nice but you can't beat a turbo for drivability and durability.<BR> <A HREF="http://www.bankspower.com/index.cfm" TARGET=_blank>http://www.bankspower.com/index.cfm</A>

[Guest]

Update.<P>Seems Gale Banks no longer is involved in autos and has concentrated on the diesel engine market. I was pointed to HKS performance products who can make a turbo kit specifically for the Reatta. Here's the link.<BR> <A HREF="http://www.hksusa.com/categories/?id=1090" TARGET=_blank>http://www.hksusa.com/categories/?id=1090</A>

[padgett]

First thought on looking at that web site is that seven grand is more than I paid for my Reatta.<P>Has anyone looked at just dropping on a later "snakes" intake, cleaning up the exhaust, and maybe a bit hotter cam ? Suspect that would generate a seat-of-the-pants difference while not bankrupting anyone.<P>Or maybe just a 75hp bottle.<P>Neither would require a new computer, transmission, or much work (can you change the cam without pulling the engine ?)

[Guest EDBS0]

<a href="http://www.grandprixstore.com/Merchant2/merchant.mv?Screen=PROD&Store_Code=GPS&Product_Code=GP3050&Category_Code=004"> Yes I think you can</a><P>Here is how they do it on a GTP.<p>[ 03-17-2002: Message edited by: Easily Distracted by Shiny Objects ]

[Guest]

Does anyone know if that cam will fit the older Series I engine. It looks like a keeper if it will work. I'll try e-mailing Comp Cams.

[Guest]

I checked with Comp Cams on the availability of the two cams they listed on the GTP site. They will custom grind one for $309, as it is not a production item at this time. They also did not tell me whether it will fit in the Vin "C" or "L" engines. Does anyone know for sure?

[Guest]

Don B.<BR>You have put a SC3800 in a Reatta, I've seen your pictures. How did you get all the electronics to "talk" to each other? It's obviously running because in a previous post you talk about trashing your tranny. Seems to me like you are the resident expert on this swap. Did your dash work with the SC3800?

[Guest]

Hi I'm new on this board. I am on Turbobuicks.com. I recently had an idea about a supercharged 3.8 in a Reatta. I come over here and there it is. I love the Reattas. They have such a clean and classy look. I'm 23 years old, so I want a black one. Plus I'm a Turbo Buick owner, we just love black This subject really interest me! I would love to try a swap. At this point in time money just won't let that happen. But I need to start planning and getting info for when the time comes. I was a little dissapointed in the curb weight of the car. My buick is no light weight by any means. The Reattas are small and look like they would weigh less than they do. My one main question is. What is with this "cowl shake" everybody refers to? What is it? What causes it? How can it be prevented? Who can make braces to prevent it? If I do a 3.8 swap it will be no joke. I don't like loosing races. Not to many people do. I intend to hook up this 3.8 to the point it will be well past a Corvetts 1/4 mile time. From what I have seen at the track from the supercharged cars 13.00's shouldn't be hard to come by in a reatta with this power plant. I will try and do a little researchg on my own. I probably won't be able to find out any more than what you guys alredy know. Some of you guys totaly confused me with some of the stuff you wrote. Also, do you think hood clearence would be an issue? thanks for any info!

[Don B.]

GSMike<BR> I replace all sensors to match the '88.<BR>I don't have a boost gauge on the CRT but plan to install a digital(Summit Cataloge)on the 'A' pillar. Had the trans rebuilt and <BR>changed the drive gear. It shifts a lot better.<BR>I plan to get some new ET's in the next week.<BR>I'll post 1/4 mile times.<p>[ 03-21-2002: Message edited by: Don B. ]

[padgett]

Sounds like you are using the stock ECM then. How are you handling boost retard and superenrichment ? Suppose you could let the knock sensor map handle the retard and just plug in bigger injectors but would suspect that route world drastically cut the peak power (say 200 hp instead of 240).<P>Alternative would be to map the ignition curve and PE table from the SC engine onto the Reatta PROM. That should give full HP. Which year s/c engine did you use ?<P>Even 190-200 hp is a big improvement over stock.

[Guest]

Questions for DonB ---- <P>How did you connect the bypass valve? <BR> <BR>What is the method of control you use? <P>The bypass valve should be open at idle and light throttle, then it should close to provide boost as the accelerator is increased. Then it should regulate at higher RPM's to limit boost.

[Don B.]

Bypass valve aka waste gate is vacum activated. I have just realized that<BR>I need to change the fuel pump. After <BR>checking the stock pump rated at 44gpm<BR>the s/c pump is 60gpm. The '88 detonation sensor and retard work ok put it has cut out<BR>twice due to lack of fuel. Pagett I was using the stock coil pack the change to the '93 pack. Engine is a '93 Park Ave Ultra, HP should be 215.

[Guest]

I know that the bypass valve is vacuum operated and that it is normally closed and that applying vacuum will open it. But where did you connect the vacuum line?

[sahein]

What is the advantage of changing to the newer coil pack?

[Don B.]

I thought that the new coil pack had a higher voltage rating.<BR>Valve (Wastegate) connections lines at bottom of s/c and on top at vacum distribution connector.