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2004 Lesabre out of Warranty by a phantom in-service date??!!


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Well, I took my 2004 Lesabre in for some warranty work at the Buick dealer and I was told my warranty was out. I purchased the car "new" at Scott Buick in Pinellas Park FL on 12/28/04. There is a 3yr bumper to bumper warranty on these cars, and my vehicle only has 25,000 miles on it also. The service rep punched up my VIN and told me the car was put in service on 12/10/03 and I was out of warranty (4:45pm) !!! I have been working with the Buick Customer Assistance people since this Tuesday (right after service rep told me the bad news I went inside the dealer) to get this resolved. I was on the phone for over 45 min. with the 1st guy who took all the info etc and did some research etc, then passed me on (he said escalated) to another person who asked me all of the same stuff. I was on hold for a while and he would come back on for a few min. then leave etc. This went on for another 35 minutes. All the time I'm in the Financial Officer's office with him listening very patiently. Let me explain at this point that Scott Buick had been taken over by GM after a death of one of the previous owners of Scott Buick. They have since closed that dealership and I received a letter in the mail notifying me to take my car to Norris Buick (where I was) or another Buick dealer that is farther away. Anyway, the guy on the phone asked me to get a person at the Buick dealership to look at my sales contract to see if I had bought a Demo or it said 'Retail Stock' on it. I didn't have a copy with me so I told him I would return and have them call him back (he gave me his direct line #). I returned with the contract and the same Finance Officer was still there and he said he would review it and call the guy. Sure enough it says "new" and nothing about demo or 'Retail Stock'. He calls the guy (6:45pm) and he isn't there (said he would be there for another 4-5 hours (he was on the west coast, we were eastern time). He leaves him a message stating my contract said 12/28/04 and was for a new car and no mention anywhere of 'Retail Stock' or any limitations on warranty. Now the car had 1100 miles when I bought it, as Scott Buick had told me they had received approx. 30 black Lesabres by mistake (04 models that hadn't sold around the country) and that it was a new car and covered by full new car warranty. Again nothing is mentioned on the contract except new and full warranty and he left the dealer number and his name if he needed to speak to him. I called the guy back later Tuesday night and told him about the message left for him (must have been out for dinner). He said he would listen to the message and contact his Mgr that night so we could get this resolved. The guy calls me back on Thurs. night and says the number the Norris Buick Finance guy left in the message was not a working number! I about explode on the phone because I listened to the number left and it was correct. I give him the dealer number and told him that the Service Mgr at Norris Buick told me that it can be difficult to get the inservice date changed and it might be easier for them to give me a 5yr Protection Plan and that would cover me and give me a little extra for my inconvenience. He said he would note that in the report. I'm supposed to hear back by 11pm eastern time Friday (today) for a status. I really don't want to get a legal squablle going hear but I'm getting really pissed off. I was sold a new car! I hope they want to keep a Buick owner as a future Buick purchaser. Now that I've ranted on I will close by saying I'm taking my 57 year old Roadmaster out to a cruise-in tonight to have some fun and a well derserved beer or three!! I will keep this thread updated when something happens. Later Buick brothers .....

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Steve, It sounds like the original dealer was not totaly up front with you, "new" cars do not have 1100 miles on them. It may have not had a previous owner but it sounds like an event car ( courtesy car at a golf tournament for example ) or maybe a zone rep vehicle. My experiance is with Chrysler so I can not say for sure this is what happened, but it sure feels that way. The Buick people seem to really want to help you out on this one. Good luck, Kevin

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Steve,

You have some research to do, or a lawyer can do it for you. Please understand where you are; their computer record says one thing, your contract says another, but your original dealer is closed. This means GM will treat you as if the burden of proof is on you, which is NOT a good place to be.

The in-service date can be verified by more than one source. Get a CARFAX, which will show where and when the car was registered off of the MSO (Manufacturer's Statement of Origin) for the first time. If the CARFAX data matches your contract, then Buick will have to justify the earlier In Service Date. Understand the CARFAX record isn't perfect, and probably wouldn't even be admissable in court, because they don't originate the record, just report what was given to them.

In some states, the dealer CAN put a car in service as a demo (which activates the warranty start date) yet drive the car on the dealer's tags. While the car was sold on a retail contract about a year later, and then registered, the ISD is listed as the earlier date. One thing in your favor: not disclosing this to you could be illegal in your state.

Do you have any other receipts from a Buick dealer for any work? If so, that invoice may have the ISD listed on it. If the date somehow changed, you can use that as justification for Buick to change the date, or extend your warranty. For example, if you went in for a routine oil change at 3,500 miles at the dealer, your invoice may have generated the ISD even though it was only routine maintenance.

You also may have some recourse through your state's lemon laws.

If Buick offers a warranty, make sure it is a zero deductible Major Guard, which is their best coverage and comes closest to matching a new warranty. Why should you get an additional warranty? Because you probably overpaid for your car, since most demos are discounted due to the fact that they are not true 'new' cars.

Here is the last part: IF GM (BUICK) TRIES TO ROLL OVER YOU, GET A LAWYER! You would be amazed at how cooperative these bean counters become when they are looking at liability stacked on top of not dealing with a customer in good faith. Most judges do NOT like to see companies not dealing with their customers in good faith.

GOOD LUCK!

Joe

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A few points . . . "new" would mean "never registered", not specifically with approx "zero" miles. As mentioned, "new" could be an "event vehicle" (i.e., courtesy vehicle for a golf tournament or similar, where the vehicle would be used and then "sold" by the carline division to a local/regional dealer at a reduced price; in this case "sold" would mean the dealer that ended up with it would not be listed as the dealer the vehicle was shipped to from the factory on the window sticker).

Considering how computerized things now are at GM (and others too), tracking the VIN should be a matter of somebody being at a computer (with appropriate authorizations!) and doing a search for the vehicle's history. This would be similar to what the service writer did that day, which not only shows when the "in service date" was but also any warranty work which GM paid for (repair order and labor operation codes and mileage) and any warranty coverages (factory and extended warranty coverage purchased from GM). This should all be from the GMDealerWorld factory-access website.

As far as I know, the "Demo Drive" option on GM vehicles was deleted in the 1980s, where the dealer ordered a vehicle as a "demo" on the window sticker (with apropriate use restrictions and requirements). Since that time, I doubt there is no specific "demo" situation with factory payments/allowances. Also, the vehicle can still remain in dealer stock and accumulate miles as it could be used for demo drives by customers or use for local events and such--many scenarios for this--and still be an "undelivered/un-sold stock unit". I'll admit that this is not generally the case, but some dealers do periodically have new vehicles that they might put a customer in overnight while their vehicle is in for repairs. Again, many possible scenarios in which a "new" unsold vehicle can accumulate miles before its first retail sale.

I am impressed that you received the high level of response to your inquiry, time zone differences considered. Things could have easily strung into the next business day, I suspect.

I've never pulled a CARFAX report, but I believe that it might work from a similar database as the GMDealerWorld database for owners and such, but also pull from other insurance industry databases with regard to insurance damage claims paid on the particular vehicle. I would think it would be better for researching a used vehicle rather than determining when a vehicle might have been first sold, with all due respect.

In a litigation scenario, the discussion might hinge upon the word "new" and its many definitions with respect to vehicles. "New" could mean "approx zero miles" or it could mean "first registered owner of record". In this case, the word "retail" would not be a factor. I believe that I'd have done some serious inquiry as to where the vehicle accumulated those 1100 miles on it, regardless of how good the sales price might have been. I suspect that "Used" would mean that one prior owner of record existed, who would be classified as "a prior owner", other than GM or an entity thereof.

Another aspect of litigation would be that the issue of when the vehicle was originally reported "in-service" would be between purchaser and the selling dealer, NOT the purchaser and the manufacturer. Therefore, in this situation, you are requesting a "third party" (i.e., the manufacturer) to make things right which the selling dealer might have messed up. If the original selling dealer has been out of business for a while, there would be no assets to file a claim against or a dealership operative to name in the litigation. You might file the litigation against the prior dealer's finance manager (or whose ever signature from the selling dealer is also on your sales contract), but what would that accomplish? Other than possibly furnishing information as to the original in-service date OR if that person was even aware that the vehicle had been in-serivce as far as GM was concerned, very little could be gained by suing that particular person.

To me, in essence, the selling dealer is the "manufacturer's representative" for products in a particular area/region. The selling dealer is the one that writes the sales contract at the time of purchase and collects the final sales monies from the purchases. The manufacturer can put specific performance criteria (i.e., "standards of operation") into the dealer's franchise agreement and monitor operations to ensure the minimum standards are met, but they can't watch every transaction which takes place in the dealership. Therefore, there has to be a certain level of trust between the manufacturer and the (sales agent) dealership. However that relationship might be interpreted, the sales contract is still between the dealer (whose name and address is on the sales contract) and the purchaser (in many states, manufacturers are prevented from owning vehicle dealership franchises and operating said franchises themselves).

Now, when the vehicle was first sold to you, as the first owner of record, the sale would have been reported to GM with several items that were on your sales contract. Particularly "mileage" at the time of the sale--accurate mileage, which should have also been accurately listed on your sales contract. To me, whether the box for "New/Retail" was or was not checked is not that important (as that would discern whether it was a retail sale or a fleet sale, typically). As you were under the impression that you were the first owner of record, it is understandable that you'd expect the full 36 months of factory warranty coverage from your date of purchase, but if a prior dealership had sent a notification to GM that the vehicle was "in stock, in service" (for whatever reason), that would have generated the in-service date that's in the GM computer database. Although you might have a "New/Retail" sales contract, without the paper trail of your vehicle's history at the prior dealership available to search through, many things can be open to speculation (although a similar paper trail should exist somewhere in GM's computer databases, I suspect).

I really suspect that GM will try to make this deal "right" with you. It appears to me that somebodies somewhere are trying to do just that. It is possible that they might either offer you an extended warranty coverage or possibly a document stating that you will have warranty coverage from your sales contract date of execution--several possibilities of their determination. It'll be your judgment call on what you might accept, but for the amount of potential "damages" you might have endured in this situation, it might be somewhat difficult to find a lawyer that might take such a case--just my gut suspicion as such values could be classified as "small claims court" rather than something higher-up. Not to forget that you'd be filing a claim against a third party rather than the business entity that was the original maker and executor of the contract with you.

As I recall, the database which the service writer used to determine warranty coverages available to you (at the time of the inquiry), per the original sales contract, would be the same database the factory reps would be using. It should show the "in service date" and first retail owner, among other things. If some of the information does not jibe (especially with the information on your sales contract), then the factory operatives can dig further to see what might have happened.

Whatever solution that you and the factory reps agree to, but sure to get copies of the applicable documents and agreements with their signatures, should you ever need them in the future. Also, a business card from everybody involved might be good to have. As you made a formal call to the customer service people, there should also be a "Case Number" (or similar tracking number) which was generated at the time of your call, with dialogue of what your inquiry was about, plus the "Agent Number/Name" of the persons you talked with.

As I mentioned, it sounds to me like a definite effort is being made to get the situation researched and a time-line determined from the time your Buick left the factory until you purchased it. I suspect they'll do what they can to take care of the situation.

Just some thoughts,

NTX5467

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Thanks Kevin, Joe and NTX5467 for your comments. I also believe that GM will do the right thing. I got a good deal on the car, but it was 1 year and 3 months old, but new! I'm pretty sure that it hasn't been titled before me, just some work was done on her (12/10/03) and the warranty date was started. I'm hoping for the 5 year Protection Plan, that would cover the big things, but not a bumper to bumper like I thought when I bought her new. I will let you know the developments as they happen. Oh yea, the beers were good and cold, and the car drove great. God ... I love driving my '50 Roadie!!

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For what it's worth (different jurisdiction and GM Canada), our Rainier was used for a couple of months by a dealer (which begs the question of why would the only one around be one that a dealer ordered and was driving himself) and had about 3500 km on it when we purchased it. The warranty date started from our purchase date, but we had to accept the 80,000 km (I think that's what it is) warranty mileage, which isn't a problem for us as we generally stay well under the mileage.

That's just how it works here. Good luck with getting your situation resolved satisfactorily.

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Well I have a small update. The Buick Customer Service rep called me back and said he was touching base with me and wanted me to know that he is waiting for the Field Mgr to get back with him. He didn't know when he would get back to him or "which way he was going to go" but continued to be upbeat. He said he'd call back Friday night, or sooner if he hears from the Field Mgr first. More good news to come hopefully.

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Well the Customer Assistance rep called back tonight. He stated that he had heard back from the man that was 'supposed' to make the decision, but instead he said that the man told him that he wasn't the one to decide this issue. He gave him a "code" so a phone message was left for the Field Service Mgr or something. I'm supposed to now get a call back on next Wednesday night hopefully with a decision. He told me if he hasn't heard back from him by then that he will leave him another voicemail! What a circus, they don't even know the correct person to involve in the process. This is really getting old fast! But what are my options, nothing for now. I will update when I hear back hopefully by next Wednesday night.

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Give them another week. And, if Moe, Curly and Larry still can't figure out which of the Keystone Cops should make this decision, I'd bet a certified letter from an attorney who specializes in consumer law would help jog their memory.

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In many states, vehicle manufacturers are prevented (by state law) from owning dealerships which sell their products (except for temporarily as they might take over a dealership to get it ready for resale to a new dealer principal, from an underperforming situation). IF the manufacturer had owned and operated the dealership in question at the time the 2004 LeSabre was sold, via Motors Holding (or whatever it might be called now), then a GM entity would have been an active participant in the sales process, which could conceiveably make the GM entity responsible for when the vehicle was put in service and warranty coverages initiated after they received the vehicle from the assembly plant.

But, as GM (most probably) did not own and/or operate the dealership at the time of the sale, GM has to rely on their franchised dealer to handle all transactions in the sale of their products. GM might have produced the vehicle and issued the manufacturer's new vehicle limited warranty for said vehicle (with stated obligations for warranty repairs stated in the warranty document), but that's where GM's liability stops. It was an operative at the franchised dealership that made the decision to put the vehicle in service prior to its first retail sale activity--not GM--period. Whether it was a clerical error, if it was placed in service as some dealership operative's demo, or was a sales or service "loan car" for a short time . . . these are all questions that can only be speculated on at this time as those responsible probably can't be found to answer the question on something they did 2+ years ago.

With all due respect, I believe that if I bought a vehicle from a dealership with "some miles" on it when I bought it, somebody should have owned up to how those miles were acuumulated and by whom. I also would have asked if it had the "full manufacturer's warranty" or the "balance of the manufacturer's warranty". This is where it can get a little sticky as the person answering that question at the dealership might not fully know the answer to that question . . . at a time when getting all of the vehicle's sale finalized is the task at hand for both the finance person and the owner (who possibly is excited about getting a "deal" on a "new car", with all due respect).

Still, although GM is the issuer of the warranty for the vehicle, they must rely on the dealership operatives to correctly and accurately advise GM of when the vehicle was put into its initial service whether it was the result of a retail sale or not. It is also this information that determines when the vehicle's warranty coverages begin and end.

A "court" would also look at who was or was not "damaged" in the transaction. As the purchaser received a significant discount in the selling price of the vehicle, it could hardly say they were "wronged" in the transaction. Only that as a possibly low-yearly-mileage driver, the time portion of the warranty would run out prior to the miles portion of the warranty ending coverages. My gut suspicion is that the amount of the discount given on the selling price of the vehicle was greater than the cost of a GM extended warranty at that time.

In another respect, the "Don't bite the hand that feeds you" dialogue could be operative as GM is "the hand" that's supposed to fix something that somebody else did (which GM had no control over when it happened). It would seem that patiently waiting for GM's action in this situation would be a better course to follow rather than threatening litigation at any level (with the amount of alleged damages defining at what court level it would be filed). Also, I'm aware that litigation and lawyers' time costs money . . . which could easily eat into and deeply erode the discount in price on the vehicle at the time of purchase.

Respectfully, just some thoughts,

NTX5467

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Well, one more time he calls and said the man he contacted said he was not the correct one to make the call on this, so he sent it to the man the man said to contact and that he would get back to me by this coming Monday, and by the way .. thanks for buying Buick !! This is getting old and turning into a circus. And I really have no recourse but to be polite to this guy.

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So GM shouldn't do a thing because they weren't involved with the sale, but for those 22 months I took my brand new GM in 24 times needing warranty work they kept saying it was a GM problem, and not a dealership problem since they didn't make the car?

It is just an interesting point of view seeing how either party, the manufacturer or the dealer, will point the finger wherever it will save the most them the most money.

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Roadmaster, when you first talked to the Customer Assistance operative and described your issue, did they issue a "Case Number" on your call and tell you what it was? Or has any of the other people you've been working with mentioned that such a number exists? Reason is that with that Case Number, you could make another call to Customer Assistance, advise them of the other issues regarding who's going to make "the decision", and respectfully inquire as to if there are any updates on that Case Number.

Out of curiousity, what was the warranty issue which started this whole situation?

Thanks,

NTX5467

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NTX5467 , yes there was and is a case #. The reason I brought the Lesabre to the dealer was for a few reasons. The A/C fan blower was getting quite loud (had been replaced previously), the passenger window motor was sporadically malfunctioning and a few other small things. Hopefully letting the Customer Assistance personnel do his job will bear fruit. I realize that it may be assumed that I received enough of a discount to offset the price of an extended warranty. Well, I can't buy the GM extended plan now. And I thought I'd have a until somewhere closer to when my warranty was supposed to expire to at least have the option to buy one. My point is that the contract says full warranty, and the Buick Finance person at the dealer I brought it to told the Customer Assistance guy that. It doesn't say remainder of warranty, or anything. it says "new" car and full warranty. What does that mean? I have faith that it will all work out.

On a side not I just got my new battery for my '50 Roadie charged and installed. What a pain that heavy battery is to hoist onto the battery tray! But it's done, and hopefully good for another 2-3 years. I will let you know what happens in the saga of the expired warranty.

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Well are you ready for this, the Buick Customer Assistance rep called back tonight and I'm totally floored. He told me there was nothing they can do for me because the 'in-service' date is correct. "They" did so more research and found out that my car was titled before I bought it!!! Can you believe this crap, it takes them 3 weeks to find out that the "new" car I bought wasn't new - it was used. And they can do nothing for me, and "is there anything else we can do for you Mr. Nelson"!! I have a contract for a new car that wasn't new. Was there fraud commited here or what? I don't know what to do right now. I will probably contact the TV stations consumer advocate or whatever they're called. I'm also going to go the dealership I took my "used" car for warranty work and talk to them and see what they recommend. So the dealership I bought the car from is out of business, who do I sue? Any suggestions from our savvy Buick crowd. I'm so pissed off I could .....

Any helpful ideas appreciated. <img src="http://forums.aaca.org/images/graemlins/frown.gif" alt="" /> <img src="http://forums.aaca.org/images/graemlins/shocked.gif" alt="" />

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Unfortunately, this is one of those "devil in the paperwork" things. Prior to considering litigation (against whom?), I think I'd inquire as to who the vehicle was titled to and other details surrounding that earlier transaction. It does appear something unusual was involved, somewhere. In reality, what good might come from getting the name of a defunkt dealership spread throughout the regional news media? Plus, if litigation is to be seriously considered, there must be a reasonable dollar value placed on your "loss" of the remaining warranty period.

The situation with the manufacturer's warranty starting with an in-service date is the same whether it's GM or whoever's vehicle. The traditional definition of "new car" is a (basically) zero-miles vehicle which is first titled in your name, but it might also mean a car of "current year model" rather than a "last year's model", with "some miles on it". Some of these finer points might be open for discussion, with appropriate side issues for certain scenarios.

What you might do is to contact your state's Attorney General's office for them to investigate if any state laws were broken in how things evolved with the vehicle. Perhaps they might use your situation as a basis for revising their policies and codes regarding defining "new vehicle" and related items in your state? It might not help your situation, but it might keep it from happening to somebody else later on.

As to the blower motor issue, perhaps a "shop warranty" at the dealership which originally replaced it is a possibility? A "parts warranty" rather than vehicle warranty? That would be their judgment call, though. Getting the window looked at might have to be on your dime, but if it takes a new regulator, you might contact Customer Assistance and see if there's something they can do for that specific situation (without mentioning anything about the earlier situation).

Take care,

NTX5467

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Steve,

Even though the dealership is out of business, if they committed fraud while they were open, AND you can find out who their insurance carrier was while they were open, you might be able to recover damages. These are two big 'ifs' but not impossible to track down. For example, your state's secretary of state office may have the agent of record for the dealership on file, even though they are closed. And, if they were bought out by a larger corporation, the new owners may assume all debts and liabilities of the operation they purchased.

The amount you could recover would depend on your state's applicable laws. As I have said before, this really sounds as if you need the advice of a good consumer law attorney who is familiar with how to recover damages.

Just be prepared for some shocking news. For example, an appraiser may determine that the difference in value of your car at the time you purchased it is only a few thousand dollars. If your state doesn't allow you to collect any damages other than your actual loss, this may be all you can sue to recover. However, if a good attorney finds the former dealer has a pattern of deceptive sales practices (they can track other complaints and lawsuits through a national database known as Lexis/Nexis) then there may be a case for a huge claim of punitive damages against the insurance carrier due to their client's sales practices.

I know it is hard to not paint GM and Buick with this brush of poor sales practices, but they and most other manufacturers have little control over how a dealer deals with or sells a car after they ship it and bill the dealer's account for it.

Good luck!

Joe

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Another reason to contact your state's operatives is that it's possible that they could pull the archived dealer's license and see if that person is operating somewhere else in a different dealership of some sort. It could mean some scrutiny of them in current times and businesses, possibly.

It would be interesting to see what happened to the archived "folders" of all of the car deals that dealer did . . . especially the folder for your car. In a dealership, "the folder" is the life story of that car from the time it hits the lot until it's first sold and then later on if it's traded-in on something else. At the dealership level, that folder should hold all of the information which could unlock this whole situation. Rather than paper folders, some dealerships do it on DVDs and such, but it's all the same situation.

As Reatta Man mentioned, if there's a pattern of something flaky going on, the state operatives might be interested in finding it.

Just some thoughts,

NTX5467

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While I was at work on Friday my wife called up to the Buick dealership (Dick Norris Buick) where I went for my supposed warranty work and asked the service manager who to call and complain. My wife can be a bulldog at times! He gave her the # to GM Customer Assistance, not the same as the Buick Customer Assistance I've been dealing with. She spoke with 2 people and gave them my case #, and both were very interested in keeping me from going to the local TV station's consumer advocate (whatever there called) and the newspaper. One woman is supposed to call back tomorrow, yes on Saturday and speak with me. I will follow the previous advice about the state's secretary's office and try to find out the dealership that went out of business insurance company. GM took the dealership over before it was closed. There is no doubt that fraud was committed and there should be some liability somewhere. I would really like it if they give me a 5 yr extended protection plan. In my dreams though they would take the Lesabre back and give me the full price I paid for it back and apply it to a new Lucerne!! <img src="http://forums.aaca.org/images/graemlins/grin.gif" alt="" /> Yea right, that'll happen. I will post info from my conversation with the lady tomorrow if I can find time in between cars at the Barrett Jackson auction. God I love watching them, you see such nice cars - never mind the out of this world prices! Later fellow Buick lovers.........

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  • 2 months later...

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Roadmaster</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Well are you ready for this, the Buick Customer Assistance rep called back tonight and I'm totally floored. He told me there was nothing they can do for me because the 'in-service' date is correct. "They" did so more research and found out that my car was titled before I bought it!!! Can you believe this crap, it takes them 3 weeks to find out that the "new" car I bought wasn't new - it was used. And they can do nothing for me, and "is there anything else we can do for you Mr. Nelson"!! I have a contract for a new car that wasn't new. Was there fraud commited here or what? I don't know what to do right now. I will probably contact the TV stations consumer advocate or whatever they're called. I'm also going to go the dealership I took my "used" car for warranty work and talk to them and see what they recommend. So the dealership I bought the car from is out of business, who do I sue? Any suggestions from our savvy Buick crowd. I'm so pissed off I could .....

Any helpful ideas appreciated. <img src="http://forums.aaca.org/images/graemlins/frown.gif" alt="" /> <img src="http://forums.aaca.org/images/graemlins/shocked.gif" alt="" /> </div></div>

Well I just started reading this thread this morning (Sunday) and I hate to say it but I knew this was going to be the answer they gave you long before I actually read it. Ive had 2 warranty issues in the last 3 years ..one with the former Daimler-Chrysler corporation and the other with G.M. Im sorry to say I got hosed on both of them. D.C. more or less told me to go to hell and if I wanted the truck fixed I could pay for it myself.Then they flat out refused to even connect me with their warranty arbitraitor G.M. put a band aid on a bullet wound and told me I should be happy I even got that.My reply was to literally fire sale every Chrysler product I owned, including the offending truck .... without being repaired (which at the time I believe was 4 vehicles ) so that they would get zero dollars from my account ever again, not even parts sales. Which is a shame cause I truly loved my Mopars. The older Buicks I just cant seem to part with, however the 2 newer everyday Chevys that we have will be replaced with either Fords or Toyotas when the time comes. No more money spent on G.M. ....if I cant buy it aftermarket for the cars , Ill buy it out of a junkyard, and there will NEVER be another Chrysler product.Which is truly a shame now that Daimler is no longer a part of Chrysler, but too late , damage done. Oh and not that there is much chance of this ever happening due to both budget constraints and personal tastes... but no Mercedes either.

As the people who know me can tell you,........ I only get burnt once.

Dan

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By observation, you can get "burnt" with most any manufactured product. It's when we might venture away from what we know that we find out, on the other side of the fence, things are no different than on OUR side of the fence. Years ago, I heard people bad-mouth the GM diesel pickup trucks, saying they would buy a Ford diesel next time. Then, when I got around some Ford diesel owners, they were having the same issues with their Ford diesels that the GM diesel owners were having--just that these two groups did not talk to each other, unless it was a fleet deal with both brands of trucks.

If Toyotas don't have issues with service, you have issues with required maintenance. For example, the new Tundra V-8 needs to have its spark plugs changed at 30K miles or it voids the emissions warranty. Looks like a "wiggle out" situation, possibly? But with the "do the maintenance, religiously" orientation of loyal Toyota owners, they'll probably not question having to buy spark plugs that GM owners don't have to worry about until 100K or so. Not to forget that the current Toyota factory-required dealership expansion is getting ready for more sales . . . more sales of "trouble-free" vehicles which will need more service department space?

Or the issues with Ford's factory warranty times. Allegedly, when Jacques Nasser put the Ford Premium Auto Group together, warranty times were decreased about 20%, back then. This didn't make the Ford techs very happy, to say the least. Many of the more experienced ones left, back then, when their paychecks from warranty repairs decreased. Not so say there are not many good ones left, but it also appears that many of the "good ones", or "go to" people, aren't in the corporate ranks anymore (which is what one media person noted to be a side issue to many of Ford's service problems).

So, with all due respect, it's regrettable that your experiences were not the best--or even perceived as "good". I understand the issues which generated your "liquidate" feelings. When it became apparent that the Germans were going to dominate DC (which I fully expected!!!), I got mad at that deal and let my own Chrysler products languish in the garage. When I got more in the mood to do something with them, available funding markedly decreased, so although it might not take much to "play cars" with them again, I still have not got around to it. There are some good FAQs of dealing with "the old" Chrysler Corp sevice issues at www.Allpar.com. Although they are Chrysler-specific, they can work with most any manufacturer as they give some insight into how things happen, typically.

Just some thoughts,

NTX5467

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