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Whitewall overkill


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Randall,

<span style="font-style: italic">Carefully</span> remove the ice picks from your eyes, fumble around for the phone, and dial 911. FYI, I'll be entering the Witness Protection Program, changing my identity, and will have a drug-sniffing dog to peruse my mail for powdery substances. I'll only need the mutt till the Post Office starts forwarding my mail to the cave in "an undisclosed location" to which I've been banished.

TG

435461-57BuickStonehenge2.jpg

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re: your comment about "guarding full classic status"

Most of us CCCA members are pretty low-key guys. This is a free country. If you want to call your used Chevrolet of ANY year an "antique" or "classic", go ahead.

There was a time when accuracy and "precision of speech" was vital - but that was when we were a "first world" manufacturing country. General Electric, RCA, Westinghouse - all the famous American names, and many that were not all that famous, had manufacting plants all over our great country. I remember as a kid in the early 1950's, and as a high school graduate, I had sufficient command of the English language, and enough mathmatics, that I could and did get jobs in small manufacturing shops in the San Fernando Valley section of Los Angeles. With my high school education of that era, I could easily be trained to use a micrometer, and with the ethics of that day, I would not only show up on time sober, I wouldnt steal anything !

One look at the labels in a big appliance store, where today's manufactured products are sold, will tell you where it is important to have accuracy and precision of speech. It sure isnt at Spring Break !

Today's young people know what they like, and they like what they know, and know what they dont want to know. How the automobile evolved, how its ever-improving technology increased our strength as an industrial nation, is totally irrelevant to the interests and "needs" of today's young people. What IS improtant to them, for their career choices, is to know how to ask " DO YOU WANT FRIES WITH THAT".

The "war" within the CCCA about strict application of the use of the word "classic" was over many years ago. If you take a look at our NATIONAL RULES, you will see an recent "over-print" over our once-strict policies " may conflict with current policies". That is the way it should be. Many "Regions" of the CCCA now violate the old Rules For Regions and Policy As To Joint Meets with impunity, permitting what us old fogies call "non-classics" at their events.

If one studies a ordinary clock long enough, even the slowest of us will eventually come to the brilliant conclusion that the hands have moved, and from that, it dosnt take too much intelligence to figure that TIME GOES ON. I dont think you will find too many car buffs, even us old CCCA types, really worried about what other people want to call their own cars !

Yes, some of the "Old Guard" like me will "smirk" a little bit when that "classic antique" '39 Ford (that is "chopped and channeled" and probably has NO parts actuall from a REAL 1939 Ford...or 1957 Chevrolet... parked next to my Packard V-12, or a Rolls, Pierce Arrow, Cad. V-16, etc. But I assure you, the sun will still come up the following morning, our REAL classics will run JUST as well, and, even more important...beer will still be served at the bar ! Besides, some of us, heck - probably most of us old CCCA types would, if pressed, admit we actual admire the effort and imagination that some of these young ones have produced.

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Back to the original topic, Although my Lincoln sports WWW tires, I doubt very seriously that anyone who originally bought a true classic (maybe a few flamboyant exceptions) would be caught dead in a car decked out in widey whiteys. The folks who spent 10X the price of common mass produced cars, and sometimes far more, generally were less likely to have them. Hand rubbed wood, high quality leather and wool upholstery, flawless craftsmanship, comfort and smooth abundant power were the more important critera. "Flash and bling" would be far too undignified.

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dont be so sure! all kinds of people in this planet then and now. all kinds of tastes! while it certainly wasn't the norm, there were some pretty wild paint jobs, and not only WHITE walls - as someone else in here noted, there were (again, very rare, but they did exist)...VARIOUS COLORS for the tire sides, not just white !

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  • 10 years later...

I agree whitewalls are often overdone (I mean, pickup trucks, really??), but as a counter-argument, they did indeed show up on some formal, high-end cars. Here's the build sheet for my Lincoln K roadster, and *no one* ever accused Lincoln of being flashy. The car came in a very traditional black with silver striping, *and* white wall tires.

 

As a side note, I have WWTs on my non-classic '37 Zephyr coupe, and I think they work *much* better than black sidewalls would with the large pontoon fenders and the fender skirts.

build sheet.jpg

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  • 2 weeks later...

One of the issues with the tires of the last 40 years is that they are dimensionally different than original equipment prewar.   The Lester balloon whitewall that you see on high end Classics restored in the 70s, 80s, and 90s are just not correct and look stupid.

 

There are some much better tires these days (although still too wide) where I will admit the white walls don't look bad.

 

With regard to your Lincoln,  since it is on the build card,  I might lean towards putting them back on, but VERY tough call for me. :)

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1 hour ago, alsancle said:

One of the issues with the tires of the last 40 years is that they are dimensionally different than original equipment prewar.   The Lester balloon whitewall that you see on high end Classics restored in the 70s, 80s, and 90s are just not correct and look stupid.

 

There are some much better tires these days (although still too wide) where I will admit the white walls don't look bad.

 

With regard to your Lincoln,  since it is on the build card,  I might lean towards putting them back on, but VERY tough call for me. :)

Try getting metal sidemount tire covers over X sized tires for an Auburn or .... - And, they wondered why I bought and returned 10 tires of different brands and sizes. 

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On 3/18/2018 at 11:49 AM, John_Mereness said:

Try getting metal sidemount tire covers over X sized tires for an Auburn or .... - And, they wondered why I bought and returned 10 tires of different brands and sizes. 

 

Do you know how many Duesenbergs have had their fenders modified to accept the wheels,  let alone the wheels and tire covers?

Edited by alsancle (see edit history)
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21 hours ago, alsancle said:

 

Do you know how many Duesenbergs have had their fenders modified to except the wheels,  let alone the wheels and tire covers?

 

This raises an interesting question:  For *currently* reproduced tires (such as the Firestone tires by Coker), are both the blackwall and whitewall tires too large? Or is it just the whitewalls? I would think the problem wouldn't be limited to one or the other. I have metal tire covers so am interested in what you all have found.

Edited by CBoz (see edit history)
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At one time the theory proposed was that ALL tires that were available in white wall were actually black wall, with the side shaved down to the white layer.  Thus, all black tires have a white layer hiding under the outer rubber.

 

That may have just been talk, but I remember seeing an article where someone was removing a thin layer of rubber to make a whitewall out of a blackwall.

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I think that 75% or more of the cars you see with metal tire covers have un-inflated tires in them.

 

I'm going to guess that the whitewall and blackwall are dimensionally identical,  but I don't know that for a fact.

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Yes, tire pressure in the sidemounts is nothing to write home about - I keep 20-22lbs in sidemounts in the 1935 Auburn 851 and that is enough to get me to a filling station to inflate to 32PSI.    

Yes, I have found whitewalls and blackwalls are dimension-ally same.

 

I think the problems happened in the 1960's and 1970's and my guess is people just put a size close to whatever they had a mold for (ie a 7:00 x 19 is not really dimensionally correct).  Also, I think for some reason reproduction tires are for lack of  better words "more rounded" (ie an early tire seems more straight up and down in their body - more a rectangle than a circle = ie more narrow in the middle of the tire sidewall).   Of course new tires do give you the benefit of proper size marking on sidewall for such as CCCA and a little extra tread is usedful for touring purposed/braking (you just bargain into the metal cover issue with the sidemounts).

 

Sidenote:  Duesenberg = You have never lived until you have to deal with yellowed double-whitewalls in the sidemounts under metal covers mated to 19" chrome wire wheels on a 100 point car (lets just say not an easy problem)

 

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On 3/21/2018 at 12:24 AM, John_Mereness said:

.

 

Sidenote:  Duesenberg = You have never lived until you have to deal with yellowed double-whitewalls in the sidemounts under metal covers mated to 19" chrome wire wheels on a 100 point car (lets just say not an easy problem)

 

 

Easy fix...........? Just take them off.........

 

 

Edited by edinmass (see edit history)
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  • 5 weeks later...
On ‎2‎/‎26‎/‎2007 at 11:30 AM, Packard enthus. said:

c'mon - lets be honest. People today LIKE the words "antique" and "classic". People like these words because our culture has changed - as we've moved away from a manufacturing culture, where "precision of speech" had value, and gone downward towards being a third world country where educational standards dont matter, because the manufacturing jobs arent around any more, why BOTHER with accuracy.

I prefer to use the term "vintage" over 'antique' or 'classic' as they lines are very fuzzy defining the latter two when it come to vehicles.

 

Craig

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On 2/24/2007 at 4:57 AM, Su8overdrive said:

If the CCCA's judging is really about historical accuracy, when are we going to see an automatic point deduction for whitewalls on 1946-47 cars?

Meanwhile, what's with all the whitewalls on everything else? Most people with the money and taste for what we term full Classics considered whitewalls tacky. In prewar, big-city showrooms, Packard Twelves, Lincoln Ks and other fine cars, even open models, were often as not displayed with blackwalls.

On the streets of any big city in the nation, perhaps one car in 40 or 50 had whitewalls, regardless of price class.

When you page through the Classic Car quarterly, all you see are whitewalls. It's comical, tacky and historically incorrect.

With elegant, clean designs, whitewalls are a distraction. And on 1946-47 cars, they're incorrect, period. Unless you're restoring your 1946-47 car to be a used car, in which case it should have, instead of 7.00/15 tires, the 8.20/15 replacements that came out in 1948. The '48 Cad limo aside, the only '48 CCCA car which could correctly wear 8.20/15s, black or whitewall, would be a Lincoln Continental.

Let's not kid ourselves. Until the respected CCCA, which sets the judging bar and tone for so many other vintage and old car clubs, addresses this issue, the focus is on vanity and personal taste, or lack thereof, in Club leaders, n o t historical accuracy.

Personally, I like whitewalls, and too, they were totally and authentically available from the factory as well as from the dealer.  My Dad bought a 1939 Buick with only 10,000 miles on it and it had double-whitewall tires from the gitgo.  He couldn't afford them and eventually put blackwalls on when he replaced the tires. I hate the look of blackwalls, so it is a personal statement....period.  I am not at all sure you are correct abut 1947 cars either, but you would be certainly correct about 1942 cars which you do not mention.  It makes no sense in picking at other people's tastes when in fact the item in question was absolutely authentic for all but 1942, probably 1946 and possibly 1947.  Buick Roadmasters switched from 7:00x15 tires to 8.20x15 tires in 1947, not 1948.  I have a Buick magazine here to prove it.  In addition, CCCA accepts radial tires which are totally non-authentic for all CCCA-recognized cars.  AACA does not accept them (for judging) but recently dropped the deduction in half.  I don't know if I agree with that decision or not, but based on membership desire, I think it had to be done....and, maybe going all the way will still be in the cards.  That's my opinion and I'm sticking to it. :)

 

Edited by Dynaflash8 (see edit history)
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On 3/19/2018 at 12:58 PM, trimacar said:

At one time the theory proposed was that ALL tires that were available in white wall were actually black wall, with the side shaved down to the white layer.  Thus, all black tires have a white layer hiding under the outer rubber.

 

That may have just been talk, but I remember seeing an article where someone was removing a thin layer of rubber to make a whitewall out of a blackwall.

 

That was a methodology for turning "modern" narrow whites into a wider whitewall.

I did that with Mrs. Lewis' 1958 Bel-air after I drove it home from Alexandria back in 1979, and drove it until I wore out the Allstates - then bought an "era-correct-width" set from Coker (;-)

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9 hours ago, Matt Harwood said:

Please note that this thread and most of the comments are 11 years old...

 

But the whitewall discussion is timeless!

 

Marty, maybe that's what was the case, that there's a wide layer of white under even the thin whitewalls....you drove the heck out of that '58, that was an interesting car....my best friend at the time in Alexandria called me one day, said his grandmother was moving into a nursing home, was I interested in the '58 in her garage...I had a hard time getting excited about it, since it was a four door, but when I went to look at it, had perfect original interior, and only 18K miles, and the engine was as quiet as could be...a pretty car too, two tone white and gold....so I bought it, then Marty talked me out of it...and toured it all over the country...

 

Marty do you have a picture of it?

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2 hours ago, trimacar said:

 

But the whitewall discussion is timeless!

 

Marty, maybe that's what was the case, that there's a wide layer of white under even the thin whitewalls....you drove the heck out of that '58, that was an interesting car....my best friend at the time in Alexandria called me one day, said his grandmother was moving into a nursing home, was I interested in the '58 in her garage...I had a hard time getting excited about it, since it was a four door, but when I went to look at it, had perfect original interior, and only 18K miles, and the engine was as quiet as could be...a pretty car too, two tone white and gold....so I bought it, then Marty talked me out of it...and toured it all over the country...

 

Marty do you have a picture of it?

 

Good Morning David,

 

That was a wonderful, solid, dependable, and pretty car,especially for a four door Bel-air, and the 283ci/ Power-glide made it an exceptional cross-country family cruiser.

 

I do have several pictures of the Chevy but they are are not digital, and are stashed away somewhere in the many boxes of pre-Hurricane Katrina materials. Hopefully, I'll get to more and more of those items as time passes.

 

Great memories !

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  • 5 weeks later...

While on the topic of tires, I have heard that CCCA now accepts radial tires without deduction.  The judging manual online at the CCCA site says that radials are an deduction.  What is the current status of this?

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Matt, thanks for your response and not doubting you.  I've been hearing this for over a year, but I'm looking for written documentation.  I go to the CCCA website and download their judging information and it's 2011.  I google it and can find a 2014 Judges manual.  Both state that radials are a deduction.  Does anyone have written documentation that radials are not a deduction of any type.  

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