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Packard Darrin Modified-Why??


michel88

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By 1955, the asking price for a restored Duesenberg phaeton would have been around $5,000. I think you're missing a zero. Plus, today's 95-point type restoration didn't exist in 1955... unless the car had zero miles on it.

About the lowest Duesenbergs ever got was in the mid-1940s, when a pair of sedans were being listed for around $600 at a Hollywood & Vine dealer's indoor showroom.

Al Ferrara bought a restored Murphy roadster around 1954 in Minneapolis. The asking price was $3,400. I don't know what Al ended up paying, but it was certainly in the thousands, not hundreds.

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I hope I am wrong, I'm just not seeing the numbers of people my age (48) or under buying original (restored or not) pre-war cars. There are a few of us out there that really like these cars (I would really like to have a '32-'34 Packard some day) and I'm seeing more and more baby boomers and gen-x types into streetrodding. I listen to comments at Meadowbrook, and don't hear a lot of love and understanding for pre-war big iron. I have heard comments that "G_D, all these OLD cars look alike, lets go look at the _________s (insert exotic 60's-80's European car brand here) or "lets go look at the muscle cars".

I really hope I'm wrong.

clarification: I did not mean (by extension) that we are going to see Duesenberg Murphy convertible sedans lowerd, sitting on 22's with big block Chevies anytime soon. I'm seeing (old restoration)multi-brand restored cars bought from estates with the intention of rodding, and the final product. There is also an understood trend in streetrodding of branching away from smaller inexpensive bodies (Ford,Chevy, Plymouth)into large cars including Packards.

Again, I hope I'm wrong--we better start recruiting the new stewards of originality soon. welcome curious newcomers that come to your club events and shows. Introduce them to your circle of friends in that club.

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for both WEST & Mr PUSH:

WEST - I agree with you to this extent - the idea of doing what we now call "restorations" didn't really exist until the late 1950's - my recollection is that I never heard of a real modern-style full frame-off restoration until Jack Nethercutt came into the So. Calif. Region of the CCCA in the late 1950's. Now, let me qualify that - HCCA was already going pretty strong by the late 40's and early '50's - I do recall seeing full "frame off" restorations on big brass as early as around '53.

I should have made it clear that the Duesenber "J" phaeton that Nate Duress (think that was his name) was trying to unload in '55, had NOT been restored. I used the term "95 points" to indicate the car was fairly sharp.

A friend of mine and I paid seventy five bucks for a just about MINT MINT '38 Cad. V-16 Formal Sedan ( the Mae West car that just appeared on the auction circuit - West is right to this extent - as the CCCA become more popular and more effective in suggestion there really IS a "real value" to the biggest, most elegant cars of that era we called "classics", prices started to climb very rapidly. Three years later (1959) we sold the Cad. for $500 ! Another year or so it went to $5,000, and just after the 1950's had become the 1960's, it was already up to $15,000.

West obviously knows more about the doings in the mid-west and east than I do - perhaps people were paying MUCH MUCH more for big engined classics then, than they were doing out here in the west.

Let me explain a little more why I have a '38 Packard V-12Formal Sedan (yeah..I know...twenty five bucks was too much money, since it needed a battery) than a beautiful '35 V-12 Town Car that was on a used car lot on Santa Monica Blvd. for $75. I DIDNT HAVE SENVENTY FIVE BUCKS AND NO WAY TO GET IT !

Getting back to the subject of those Darrins - remember, to be fair and honest, ole Dutch was pretty much making "customs" ! To save money, he was ordering "120" coupes (he wouldnt pay the extra price Packard wanted for the heavier-framed convertible) and used those to create his beautiful cars. The damn things were so flimisy the doors would spring open if the car flexed - when Packard finally got a hold of the "Darrin" project those cars had MUCH better chassis and body flex control.

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Most people can't spell Duesenberg so I wouldn't worry what the average spectator at a car show (even one as nice as Meadowbrook) says. In a past issue of the CCCA newsletter there was an article taking a guess that the total number of remaining classics in the world ( I can't recall the exact number but it was small - way less then the total number of HEMI cars made btw). If you eliminate the numerous post 40 vehicles, there are relatively very few cars to go around. There doesn't need to be thousands of collectors to maintain an adequate supply and demand ratio. For every thousand "kids" lusting after a modern Ferrari there only needs to be a few tha eventually appreciate and purchase a classic.

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What I found ironic about this entire thread is that

Duesenberg and Darrin owners were hotrodders!

They paid someone to make a car as they wanted it.

They wanted their own color choices... they got it!

They wanted superchargers... they got it!

They wanted their cars more streamlined... they got it!

They wanted their cars to stand out in a crowd... they got it!

They wanted the best... they got it!

Isn't Boyd Coddington just a modern rendition of what use to be called a "Custom Coach Builders"?

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I HOPE your reasoning proves accurate - for purely selfish reasons - at my age, I have to start thinking that eventually I wont be able to care for my Packard V-12 sedan, and will have to sell it. I am frankly worried that you might be wrong, and the values WILL decline substantially; again, look at all those "repeat" ads in HEMMINGS, OLD CARS WEEKLY, and other publications - the big "tankers" like mine just dont seem to sell.

WEST - just thought of something to show you how low the values were, of big-engined '20's and '30's closed cars were out here in the west in the early 1950's, and how much our definition of what is or should be a high value "classic" has changed....

Do you have access, or can you get your hands on a copy of the late Bob Gottlieb's CLASSIC CARS AND ANTIQUES ? (this was one of the first major books suggesting that the luxury cars of the 20's and 30's we now call "classics" were worth preserving). In that book, you will see a photograph of my '34 Super Eight sedan - with other pages full of open Packard V-12's. His sarcastic caption "the difference between this and a classic Packard are so great they need no further comment from me"...!

Bob's above papeer-back book was written around '53.. started showing up on newsstands a few months later. Elsewhere in his book, he explains why you should over-spend fixing up a classic car. He notes the illogic in spending two much... " why spend seventy five dollars for a classic that

needs work, when one in near new condition can be

had for $ 175.."

It now turns out that more than one Packard V-12 has been customized/hot rodded with complete modern drive lines (one has a V-10 Ford). A friend of mine has some pictures; if anyone's interested, I will see if Gariepy wants me to "post" them in here (assuming I can figure out how to do that).

Again, I have to agree with Gariepy - despite our varying opinions on details and methodology, we are all car buffs - I think there is something interesting, something to learn from any good "car fixing up" job, no matter what you call it or what it started out as.

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Pete. You're so right about Darrin. I had the chance to hear his son speak a couple of years ago. Even he admitted that his dad was a great designer of automobiles, but knew nothing about building them (see attached). The 1941-42 Darrins, as you say, are much better built because they are all-steel construction with rear-opening doors. A much better looking car, too, in my opinion (I don't care for the '42's as much, though. Sorry, Ken).

In regards to $500 Duesenberg phaetons in 1955: It's hard to imagine prices being that much different between the east/midwest and the southwest. Obviously I can't say it wasn't so, because I wasn't there. But by the mid-1950s, top-tier Classics were generally bringing $500 for Class 3 and below condition. I know of a certain 1930 Packard 734 boattail speedster that was in class 4 condition and did not run. It sold for about that amount in 1953. My father bought a 1934 Bugatti in 1956 that was in class 4 condition but it was running, also for about that much, and he was just a plain-Jane working stiff behind a desk at the time. I'm not saying that Classics weren't selling for $50-$75 in the midwest, because I know they were. My dad also bought a 1941 Packard LeBaron Sport Sedan for about $50 in 1956, and it was a nice, straight and solid car that ran well. But the top-tier cars were well into the thousands by 1955 if they were in top condition. Nethercutt claims that he spent $65,000 restoring that DuPont towncar in 1956!!! I'm positive that if he knew that Duesenberg was available for $500, he would have looked for any others around for the same amount then would have snatched them up like marbles.

Bottom rung classics were still VERY affordable even as late as 1972, when my dad bought William Wrigley's 1942 Lincoln Continental coupe for $900 (nine hundred) in beautiful rust-free condition that would probably score about 80 points.

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Patrick Darrin spoke at the Packard Museum here in Dayton in 2005. He was inspecting the 1940 Darrin "Parisienne" and made comments about how poorly built his dad's cars were.

In regards to doors flying open, I remember driving a 1940 Darrin from Orlando to Atlanta some 20 years ago, and there was a strong bungie cord leading from the steering column to the passenger door to make sure it stayed in place. Sure was fun driving it, though. I wouldn't have kicked it out of my garage for leaking oil, that's for sure!!!

One more photo of Patrick Darrin attached.

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Many of you either knew or had dealings with Art Brummer over the years. I bought my 900 Convertible (non-Classic at the time) from him in 1970 for $500, with a parts car. At the same time he was trying to sell a '32 Super 8 Conv in sad bu driveable condition for $3500. He bought his Duesenberg Sedan here locally. Tried to borrow the $10000 to buy it from my Dad. Dad didn't consider the title to the Dues to be adequate collateral. Haven't seen Art in several years, hope he's still above ground. <img src="http://forums.aaca.org/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" />

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That Duesy had a 1937 Packard tranny in it, which is why it was such a good tour car (evidently Duesenberg J transmissions are very touchy and break quite easily). I have a picture of my oldest son standing on the front seat holding the steering wheel of that car (Gene Cofer owned it at the time). My son was about two and a half. I always liked the looks of it, but the late-model (for Duesenberg) rims, which were smaller, made it look a little funny. I would like to see that car with the larger wheels.

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Pete, Love that photoshop job on J-111. I am active on another website,

Detroit yes.com, and we had a guy over there that could cool down many cyber-arguments with a hilarious photshop job like yours--a picture that cut the issue to the quick. We lost Jeff last week at the age of 42, and miss him already. You can photoshop anthing you want, I'd love to see it. How 'bout taking a '38 Packard 12 Rollston town car, modern prom-limo stretch it about 20', lower it, put 22's with Chip Foose alloy rims on it and paint it purple?

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A friend rebuild a Duesenberg a few years back, funny thing was at the packard nationals in 2005 i saw a licence plate on the back of a Packard that had "Duesie" as the plate, he has since donated the car to the reynolds museum.. here is the link , We also Made new coach work for one of his other cars, a 1928 Aurburn Boat tail back in the mid 70's http://www.ourheritage.net/index_page_st...Museum/ram.html

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Take a look at that Duesey in 1930, as reported in the pages of <span style="font-style: italic">Autobody</span> in March, 1930. Part 1. The book itself is, <span style="font-style: italic">The Golden Age of the Luxury Car</span>, An Anthology of Articles and Photographs from "Autobody", 1927-1931, Edited by George Hildebrand, published by Dover Books in 1980, ISBN 0-486-23984-5.

I stumbled upon a copy at our local library, fell in love with it & found my own on ebay for $9.95 + S/H. Don't know why, but they asked me to write a review, which can be found on ebay under that title. This book is a <span style="font-weight: bold">must</span> for your library!

TG

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Down here in Houston, Texas, classic cars sold at these prices during my time in the hobby, which is admittedly a little more recent than you guys are talking about:

'29 Packard club sedan, #5, $600 in 1960.

'32 Duesenberg Murphy conv. sedan, #5, $5,000 in 1961.

'25 Kissell Gold Bug, #3, $3,500 in 1970.

'21 Stutz Bulldog touring, #4, $2,000 in 1960.

'35 Pierce 8-cylinder production silver arrow, #5, $1,000 in 1965.

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yes - your price "post" confirms wha I remember from those later years of the 50's - as I noted above, the value of big classics (again, referring to the super-luxury cars of the late 20's thru the late 1930's) really took off at the end of that era.

We early members of the Classic Car Club Of America must "take the blame" for making the public aware that these big luxury cars were worth saving, and thus incresing their value.

Even as late as the early 1960's, there was still a lot of ridicule for anyone saving a big old "super luxury" car - there are at least THREE "I Love Lucy" episodes where "Lucy" demonstrates how dingy and irresponsible she was, by getting involved in some way with a big classic car.

Now that he is no longer with us, I feel free to tell a cute story about J.B. Nethercutt. In the early 1960's, a bank trust tried to get him declared mentally incompetent to manage the family business. The basis ? They were able to prove he had "wasted" FIVE THOUSAND DOLLARS restoring an "old car" (Duesenberg..naturally !).

I remember my own surprise, in my last year of high school - I couldn't borrow a "decent" car (meaning someone's late model Chevrolet or Ford) and HAD to take a date out in my '38 Pacard V-12 Formal Sedan. I pulled into a restaurant driveway, started to let the girl out, when the manager/owner came out, and asked me to park the car in FRONT where people could see it ( we classic car buffs were just accustomed to being asked to park out back somewhere where the place wouldnt be disgraced...!). I was in disbelief...you mean...the guy thought a big classic was an ASSET ?

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Hmm, I aspire to own a Classic Packard and now that this link has turned to Duesenberg stories I know what Packard guys daydream about. I thought some of you may enjoy this link. This is the best "find story" I have read lately, and a great overall site if you have a half hour or so. Note the price paid for this car in 1947, princely sum of $450 for what looks like a pretty nice convertible sedan back then, a style I think even more unusual than a phaeton.

http://www.classiccars.ws/articles/barnfresh/duesn2.htm

Also, I do have to say we are somewhat different from rodders, Consider this comment intended in good humor. Half of the rodders are buying modern glass bodies and repro frames, then they scour the countryside looking for NOS and authentic period parts to put on these new nostalgia rods. Half looking at rare original cars, cut them up for the bodies and add modern parts everywhere else. So, half the time both of these contingents are doing OK, we just need to help them a bit..

Seriously, even these higher end rods of today are in my mind in more danger of depreciating over the long haul; look at the state of the art hot rod of the 70s or 90s - not really in demand today, and many go cheaply to be rebuilt into today's standards. These cars are purpose built and when the tastes change, they are subject to the same loss of interest as any other type of car. Now look at Restorations. State of the art has improved dramatically over time, and older restorations make great drivers until the time comes to re-do to today's standards. Originals are always sought after. Way back in this thread Restorer32 comments about his clientele, which I find very encouraging. From recent articles in Antique Automobile I would say AACA is doing its part also, a good thing. But if those Classics do come down just a bit in the next 3 - 5 years....

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to keep that "four hundred fifty dollar Duesenberg" price in perspective, remember, to get the equiv. REAL value in today's purchasing power, you'd have to multiply that amount by roughly fifteen. So that would be roughly seven grand!

Weren't too many of us old car buffs who had nearly SEVEN THOUSAND DOLLARS to spend on a used car, and if we did...our families would probably have had us locked up !

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Good point, Pete. My current 1956 Cadillac sedan cost a little more than that for a #3 driver. And it certainly is not in the same universe, let alone category, as a Deusenberg. And that was what my car was worth in the 1960s... about $150. But heck, it got you a nice Cadillac of an older style to use. I see younger people, and some older, running around town in 1984 Cadillac DeVilles that look nice and seem to serve them well. Older luxury cars make good drivers. <img src="http://forums.aaca.org/images/graemlins/laugh.gif" alt="" />

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I must say the workmanship seems top shelf but how do you get that irreplacable old car feel with everything new but the reworked sheetmetal. I can't help but think this must feel like a new Caddy XLR convert or a Corvette to drive. One thing I like about the older stuff is it feels so differently from what we now drive every day.

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<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Quote:</div><div class="ubbcode-body">I must say the workmanship seems top shelf but how do you get that irreplacable old car feel with everything new but the reworked sheetmetal. I can't help but think this must feel like a new Caddy XLR convert or a Corvette to drive. One thing I like about the older stuff is it feels so differently from what we now drive every day. </div></div>

I have not ridden in it but my neighbor did. He said it rattled quite a bit.

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So did the '71 Corvette I once had .. <img src="http://forums.aaca.org/images/graemlins/crazy.gif" alt="" />

I wonder if he took into account the mediocre construction these cars seem to be known for new. If you add all that HP and weight from power ash trays and such, it probably does not help..

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<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Quote:</div><div class="ubbcode-body">So did the '71 Corvette I once had .. <img src="http://forums.aaca.org/images/graemlins/crazy.gif" alt="" />

I wonder if he took into account the mediocre construction these cars seem to be known for new. If you add all that HP and weight from power ash trays and such, it probably does not help.. </div></div>

Don't know. I have never ridden it so it's only someone's take. It does draw a lot of attention.

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It looks like a first class job of engineering and installing the new interior. What he has done however is make the car look like a kit car. The Darrin probably had a beautiful Banjo type steering wheel and engine turned dash (not sure). Those wheels also make it look like a kit car. He has modified the fire wall by moving it back and probably subframing it. He most likely put in an automatic and replaced the entire drive train. it would be too much of an effort to bring it back to stock. So another true Classic has been lost. <img src="http://forums.aaca.org/images/graemlins/confused.gif" alt="" />

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I just by accident spotted an article "GOODGUYS LONESTART NATIONALS" which includes a 3/4 view of a 1938 Packard V-12 two-door sedan. It appears to have been both "chopped" and "channeled" and, according to the text "is now motivated by an Allison five speed behind a '02 GM "big block" with Boyd Coddington wheels..."

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re:

picture of the butchered '38 Packard V-12 two door sedan

the way I found it, was to search for Lone Star Packard ( I was looking for info. about the upcoming meet in Texas at the end of March )

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<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Quote:</div><div class="ubbcode-body">re:

picture of the butchered '38 Packard V-12 two door sedan

the way I found it, was to search for Lone Star Packard ( I was looking for info. about the upcoming meet in Texas at the end of March ) </div></div>

Here it is!

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