BCA Rules on Buick OPEL???????

[NTX5467]

BA455, you're missing some key points. The ONLY minivan that Ford shared with Nissan was the Mercury Villager/Nissan Quest--that's the only one. Chrysler used Mitsu engines, but not rebadged Mitsu cars, yet the current Sebring/Avenger were jointly worked on with Mitsu, yet Chrysler was the lead entity.

There were S-10s rebadged as Isuzus, NOT the other way around. S-10s were all GM--period. All that made them Isuzus were grilles and other bolt-on trim items. The Chevy L.U.V. trucks were all Isuzu, but with Chevy ornamentation and possibly a Delco battery--similar with the later fwd Chevy Nova that was a rebadged "home-market" Toyota Corolla with a Delco battery, Delco radio, and Firestone tires.

As for the Opels sold as captive imports by Buick dealers, whether they were of German or Japanese origin, it might be advisable to consider doing an Opel division . . . BUT I highly suspect something similar might happen as when Mopar clubs invite AMC enthusiasts into their groups as "Mopars" . . . in the Mopar case, by observation, with national and local/regional AMC groups already in existence, they really don't need anything from the Mopar camp, although the Mopar groups would and did openly welcome them into their groups when Chrysler bought AMC. I highly suspect something similar might happen with Opel and the BCA . . . the BCA might openly welcome the Opel enthusiasts and owners, but the Opel enthusiasts might desire to be more a part of existing Opel enthusiast groups. NOT that the BCA shouldn't make some overtures to welcome Opel owners into the BCA, but such invitations might not be met with the level of interest that some might suspect. That's what I suspect might happen -- still, not that such invitations should be withheld, but the acceptance rate might be less than anticipated.

Perhaps some defining issues might be IF the German Opels actually had "Buick" on them somewhere, unlike the Isuzu Opels that had "Buick/Opel" on their quarter panels? We know what the service literature and sales brochures looked like, but what was actually on the cars? Perhaps the VIN-decode might be a determining issue, too?

Just some thoughts,

NTX5467

Edited February 11, 2010 by NTX5467 (see edit history)

[Guest wildcat465]

I worked at a Buick dealer in the late 80's and early 90's and the left side of my paycheck had a tri-shield and the Opel circle and lightning bolt logo side by side on it. Kinda cool, they sold Opels at this particular dealership back when. My paycheck also had the big H used by Honda as a logo on the right side because this particular Buick dealership was selling Hondas back then (Hell, now they sell Hondas and Hyundais, but no Buicks there).

I don't know that selling Opels at Buick dealers is a valid point that Opels are Buicks.

Buick/Opel service manuals exist, I would imagine, because the ones printed by Opel would be in German. I am sure that GM would assign the division selling them to print in english. To create another interesting tangent, do Vauxhall manuals say Pontiac on them, or because they would be in english to begin with, just roll with what they had?

The dual advertising with an Opel and a Buick on it would make me also believe that the division selling the product would be responsible for that as well.

I would like to know if the Opels have a 4 in the same place as a like year Buick in the VIN.

Certainly it has been established that Marquette's were built by Buick.

I think looking at Opels would be cool at BCA meets.

I also think that I still would like to buy a Jeep pickup with a 350 Buick engine in it. I think aluminum V8's in Rovers are cool (those that know me well, have seen the result of this mental defect).

I think that putting together a group and creating a viable division of the BCA with a large enough group to manage a separate class at a BCA national meet is a good idea if it can be done. But if anyone thinks it would be fun to own one, I recommend that they buy it soon before one goes through an auction in Scottsdale. And then have fun with it.

I think that I have seen a couple of active Opel clubs out there.

I think this enough thinking for this week for me.

The question I have is this. How many Opel enthusiasts are the BCA shunning by not having a class for them. So far I can only see 2, and I am not sure either one even owns one.

[gsjohnny]

isnt the new regal on an opel chassis?

[mp65riv]

Although my 74 Opel Manta was sold by Buick, I don't believe the Buick name is anywhere on the car. Having said that, it would be kinda neat to see some Opels at BCA meets, and either creating a separate division or reaching out to the Opel clubs to encourage them to participate in the BCA events would be nice. I would guess that most German Opel owners don't consider their cars to be Buicks, so would probably want to maintain independent Opel clubs. But I think many wouldn't mind showing their beloved Opels at BCA events.

To me, The Japanese Opels are a different story...even though the Opel/Isuzu was based on the Opel Kadette, they seemed more Japanese than German in their overall execution. They certainly seemed more susceptible to the tin worm than the German built Opels, as well. I doubt they have anywhere near the dedicated following that the German Opels enjoy.

I must say that I have enjoyed my Manta as much as I enjoy my Riviera, and am looking forward to getting it back on the road later this year!!

[NTX5467]

gsjohnny, GM seemed to allocate all non-North American vehicles to Opel to design and engineer for many markets. There were two Opel models . . . Diplomat and Senator, I believe, that were the basis for Catera and the Holdens that have caused quite a stir in enthusiasts' minds. One was the longer wheelbase version and one was the shorter wheelbase model (which became Catera after it was "Cadillac-ized"), with the other one going to Holden to provide their ranges of rwd sedans sold in their home market plus the Middle East, including the Monaro/last-gen Pontiac GTO and later the Pontiac G8 . . . plus the allegedly upcoming "Chevy Caprice" police vehicle for the USA. The "VIN Identifier" on these Opel-originated non-Opel-brand GM vehicles is that they are all "V-platform" vehicles (think Catera, CTS, GTO, G8) regardless of where they were assembled or sold.

After Holden got the newer V-platform for the last-gen Monaro (check out the Holden website via General Motors | Corporate Website | GM, using the Location drop down menu to click on the Australian area, to bring it up), they "Oz-ized" it from what I could tell. This involved modifying the engine compartment size to accept the Chevy 5.7L V-8 (later LS-family motors and the "high-feature" 3.6L DOHC V-6) and similar-width 90-degree V-6 of Buick sourcing . . . not to mention making a whole range of vehicles unique to Oz and the Middle East region on just two wheelbases . . . not unlike what Chrysler did with the K-cars as their use progressed to include different wheelbases and models (plus the first car-based minivan!) for many different consumers.

In prior times, the dividing lines between GM-North America and GM-Europe and GM-Opel were definite and distinct in product and who did what. Now, with "globalization", those lines have become much softer and more invisible. Much more sharing of styling and engineering talent to produce "world class leading" vehicles to better compete in a more international marketplace.

I had a friend in college that had a Manta GT and my uncle bought a '72 Manta coupe. The Manta GT (not to be confused with the "Opel GT" couple) was the first Opel I'd been around and I liked it. It had one quirk in that the oil pressure gauge would only show pressure after the engine had run a minute or so, suddenly registering pressure. I was impressed with it. It was a manual trans vehicle. The one my uncle bought in NM was an automatic. It was a neat car, too, and a better choice than one of the USA-market compacts of the time (think Vega and Pinto, which had their own strong points at the time). I found that manually shifting the transmission made it more perky to drive. Funny thing was that the add-on factory a/c kit used the GM-Harrison A-6 compressor, which was almost as long as the 4 cyl engine block itself. Seemed like it should have affected performance more than it did, though. Be that as it may . . .

Starting with the 2004 era new-body Chevy Malibu, the dealer training people proudly stated that the basic body structure was shared with the Saab 9-3 which came out one year prior in Europe. This fact was supposed to be proof that GM was a truly global company which could leverage its massive engineering/design resources from throughout the world to produce better vehicles.

I wonder if the Saturn people were told that with respect to their Saturn Aura sedan? Or the true parentage of their recent Astra vehicle?

The new Regal, although with a definite Opel heritage, will still be badged and oriented toward Buick in many more ways than just changing nameplates on the deck lid or replacing the front grille with one for a Buick rather than an Opel. Still, it's a Buick regardless of where it's assembled. The same plant that built the Pontiac Solstice and Saturn Sky also built a different version of that car for Opel, with Opel ornamentation on it. A Buick built, for now, in Germany or an Opel built in the USA . . . not much real difference except that these are not just re-badged "other brands" but share platform architecture between them.

You can see much of the upcoming Chevy Cruze as the Holden Cruze in the Holden website. In Oz, they get a choice of "petrol" or "diesel", whereas the USA Chevy version will be 1.8L EcoTec in the base car and turbo 1.4L EcoTec in the upscale versions, with the orientation of "hybrid fuel economy" with conventional non-hybrid engines.

If we're going to mention Opel, we might as well consider what were termed "GM Partners" as Isuzu, Suzuki, Daewoo, Saab, Toyota,and Suburu. Some of these partnerships produced non-Buick-brand vehicles, but there were Chevy Trackers, Pontiac LeMans (fwd), Chevy Novas (fwd), Buick/Opels, and many other specific models over the years . . . so perhaps the new division could be called "Buick-Specific, GM Partners and Captive Imports"?

Just some thoughts,

NTX5467

[Guest Dans 77 Limited]

In a time when we are raising dues (still think its a bad idea) and complaining about decreasing membership, why would we want to exclude a vehicle that was sold and serviced at a Buick dealership, by Buick salesmen and Buick mechanics ? Some of the cars even had Buick badging on them. Yet instead of seeing this as an opportunity to reverse our falling membership dilema some of us are going to sit back and whine about them not being "real Buicks ". Give me a friggin break . Im 45 yers old and I remember when you could buy an Opel at a Buick dealership. To this day when I see an Opel (which surprisingly there are a few of them around where I live) I think BUICK ! An imported Buick ..... yes but still a Buick.

I am also a member of POCI (pontiac club) and I see this with them all the time. A lot of Pontiac owners have a real problem with Pontiacs powered by GM corporate engines. They dont consider them to be real Pontiacs. Now if WE want to go down that route we can start by excluding:

Opels

Skyhawks- based on the Chevy Monza

Apollos-based on the Chevy Nova

X body Skylarks - Gm corporate platform introduced first as the Chevy Citation

Any Buick from 76 on up(including mine) that doesnt have a true Buick engine

Any 455 powered Buick- engine shared witth Olds and Pontiac so its not a true Buick only development.

The new Regals Built in a chinese factory and shipped here not true Buick

Reattas Not built by Buick, built in a GM facility maybe , but not built by Buick

Rendevous- Not built by Buick, Buick badged imports

We could go on like this forever and eventually find a reason to exclude everybody..... but what are we really going to achieve ?

I say welcome the Opels and their owners. They know enough about their cars to teach us how to judge them. Even if only 3 Opel owners join the BCA thats 3 members more than we had before.

Dan

[Guest wildcat465]

I am not sure I seen anything where Opels enthusiasts are being told they cannot be in the BCA. I have seen ideas put out there for them to unite.

But certainly, with the passion posted here about how Opels being included will build membership. I can't wait to see Ames, IA swamped with Opels this summer driven by a bunch of new BCA members.

I don't care if they are "Real Buicks", "Fake Buicks", or "Imagined Buicks".

[Guest my3buicks]

Paul, great attitude!! Not.

I don't think anyone has said that it would be a massive influx of membership, but on a sinking ship any repair or patch to help keep it afloat is worth looking into without snide remarks and innuendos. This club has long had the reputaion of not being inclusive of all realms of the Buick world, and this is just one more area that applies.

Edited February 14, 2010 by my3buicks (see edit history)

[Guest wildcat465]

Keith, I apologize if I offended you.

I seriously would like to see Opels at BCA meets.

Membership growth in the BCA is important.

I actually hope that Opel enthusiasts put something together and join the BCA.

I just did not see anyone on here saying Opels must be excluded.

I stand by my words, many Opels in Ames would truly show a level of commitment that could not be ignored. This years National meet has a great opportunity with the multi-make car show on Saturday for Opel enthusiasts to make the point.

Vote in Opels with a display of participation!!!

[Guest my3buicks]

As far as I know there is no Opel classes or anyplace in place to show an Opel. I believe from past discussion that at this point there would be no place at a BCA National event for an Opel. So without the Opel group knowing they would be welcome last minute for a National meet, i would doubt this year would have much of a showing.

I think it would behove the BCA to court the Opel group and invite them into the fold, rather than have the Opel group try to knock down the iron curtain known as the BCA.

Edited February 14, 2010 by my3buicks (see edit history)

[Brad Conley]

...Any 455 powered Buick- engine shared witth Olds and Pontiac so its not a true Buick only development.

Dan

[off topic] Humm..no. A common misconception. Buick's 455 shared NOTHING in common with the Olds or Pontiac 455. I'm sure Dennis Manner, the father of the BUICK 455 Stage 1 would take great exception to your statement.

[/off topic]

[Brad Conley]

This club has long had the reputaion of not being inclusive of all realms of the Buick world, and this is just one more area that applies.

Keith, truer words have never been spoken, but I will say it has gotten better over the years.

You ought to have owned "one of those sporty cars" 25 years ago...talk about outcasts!

[Guest wildcat62]

Brad, as someone who is a nearly 20 year member of the BCA, and an active one over the past 8 years nationally, and a BOD member...the comment of the BCA not being inclusive is the one thing that will personally offend me. I find the BCA to be very inclusive and has been very progressive over the past few years.

If we continue to dwell on the past, we cannot move into the future.

I cannot think of a Buick made that is not welcome at a meet. We are willing to review categories and adjust accordingly, if it was built by Buick, it is welcome.

I love Buicks, cars really. Old Buicks, New Buicks, Modified Buicks, Fast Buicks, Buicks that climb on rocks...I like to see all of them. I happen to believe the majority of people that I see and speak with at Nationals like to see a nice mix of cars. Everything is welcome.

That's right, everything Buick is welcome. Some can continue to ignore that statement but it doesn't change the fact that a 1908 to a 2010 Lucerne can participate in a meet. There is a class for everyone. Some of you disagree about what class, but there is something for everyone. And constructive comments to expand and change classes are always welcome.

Brad, I would love to be able to come out to one of your groups events sometime, I'm anxious to run my 72 down the track someday I also hope to make the GS Nationals in KY someday and if the unexpected car repair god overlooks me this year I hope to get to the Great Lakes National. But if I held onto previous feelings and experiences...I wouldn't bother. Two Examples to consider:

Example One, 19 years ago St. Paul had some massive cruise nights going and I loved to go down every nice Saturday night. If I took my Dad's 70 GS convertible down, there was a small group of 70-72 GS guys that were as nice and friendly as could be. If I took my 62 Wildcat? Not so much, move along kiddo... Did that turn me off of GS's? Heck no! I love 'em, hope to have one oneday, even if it may be a Skylark GS Clone. Would join the GS club, too. I'm not going to let an event that happened nearly 20 years ago ruin what could be a great and fun opportunity.

Example Two, Less than a year ago when I was still working in a bank branch an older man came in. I forget exactly what it was, maybe a Buick jacket with a year or hat, or shirt that made me ask if he had a Buick? He said yes, he had a street rodded 38 or 39. I asked him if he was thinking of bringing it down to Ames for the National BCA meet in 2010. He got MAD and say "No! I went to one of them BCA meets here before and they told me they didn't want me there with my car!" I was stunned, thinking he meant the Rochester meet in 2006 and asked him if someone in Rochester had told him he wasn't welcome. He told me no, he meant the National BCA meet that was held in Bloomington, MN.

That was 1979. Nothing I could say was going to change his mind.

If people aren't willing to change their perceptions, they cannot open their eyes to what is going on today. I STILL hear modifieds aren't welcome in the BCA. Those of you in Colorado Springs got to see a lot of people go running to a Buick Wagon Modified that was gorgeous. With that whole British car thing running in the family, I would love to have a Morris Minor and drop in a v6 turbo Buick engine or an old aluminum v8 Buick engine. If I ever do it, I would bring it to a meet, but I wouldn't expect someone to make a class for me. I'd probably ask beforehand if I could display it.

So let's talk about today. And Ames and Danvers. Realistically, sweeping changes in judging are not practical for Ames. It's rather unfair to ask people to completely redo a process at this point for a meet held in 5 months. Those of you who have run a meet know this. So changes need to be discussed before Ames to change in time for Danvers.

Another thing to consider. Our local chapter runs a very large and very successful car show every year. For many years we had a "feature" car. Not a Buick, but another group or car. One year we chose Volkswagons. Not long after the new retro beetle was introduced, I believe. We contacted the local VW group and invited them to the show months prior. They showed a lot of enthusiasm. We created a seperate class with 1st, 2nd and 3rd place trophies. We had a premium parking area planned out. Prior to show day I think we had 2 registrations. Not too big a worry...if you've been to our show you know that easily 10 more could show up show day if it is nice. And it was a bee-yoo-tiful Sunday.

One car showed up. One.

It didn't work out. We could easily change the class to something else, we ate the cost of trophies and did not do it again for VW's. Other feature classes were very successful. Corvette, Thunderbird, Professional Cars all have a yearly spot, and we have 60 classes.

Adding Opels to the BCA is not such a simple matter. A quick google of Opel clubs came up with at least 4 clubs in the US and North America. We do not appear to be a landing spot for Opel owners without a club. That being said, and as several others have already stated including BOD members, a proposal from Opel enthusiasts will be happily considered. Bring us a proposal. Simple as that. Just wanting to add them on an emotional level does not fly. The reason is, adding an Opel class costs money. It involves rewriting and changing a Judging manual, researching info to put in the manual and info for judging. It requires time, money and work. Before I vote something in that will cost the club money, I want to make sure it is practical to do so. I can't go by what I want to do, I have to think about the impact for the club.

As far as Opels showing up in Ames? I'm fairly certain that if they show up we could probably put them on the showfied as display. There's plenty of room and I'm fairly sure knowing Rick he'd find a place for them too.

If I can leave anyone with anything on this little rant of mine, stop worrying and obsessing over what USED to be, and start thinking about what can I do NOW to make a difference? I found several years ago that throwing myself into the club and getting active had more blessings and rewards than I ever could have imaged. And I couldn't be happier that I did. The more involved I got, the more fun I had and I have to say my club friends, BCA and ROA are the best in the world.

[rivgs]

Keith, you are correct that there are no classes for Opels at this time. Have you tried contacting Craig ( or vice versa ) to see if you two can come up with proposal to present to the BCA board? Opels would certainly be welcome at the open car show on Saturday in Ames. The "Iron Curtain" as you put it is more then willing to listen.

Skyhawks- based on the Chevy Monza

Apollos-based on the Chevy Nova

X body Skylarks - Gm corporate platform introduced first as the Chevy Citation

Dan, GM has been sharing bodies going way back to the 30's and probably earlier and Chevy wasn't always the first to get them. Buick, Oldsmobile and Pontiac had senior compacts in 62 which were upsized in 64 to a midsize car when Chevy joined them with the Chevelle.

Any 455 powered Buick- engine shared witth Olds and Pontiac so its not a true Buick only development

You are going to have a very difficult time trime to swap parts from a 455 Buick to a 455 Pontiac or Olds as they are completely different engines. Buick 455's have the distributor in the front, Olds and Pontiac have them is the rear-except for engine accesories and small incidentals, the only thing they share is 455 cubic inch rating.

After going back and looking at the prior posts, NOBODY states they do not want Opels in the BCA. We have to start somewhere, Craig started this thread and Keith has chimed in many times that this needs to be done.

I am looking forward to hear what you guys come up with.

[serb]

Kris has made a lot of good points and has thought this out. I whole heartedly agree with Kris.

Stevo

[Brad Conley]

Kris,

I did say it is better!! Much better, in fact. When I first joined, it was the first year my GSX could be judged (1980) and most didn't know what to do with it. Back in that day, when I was young and full of spunk, I'm sure I was part of that problem too. I've calmed down and I will say every event I've attended that the people have treated me and my family very, very well. I DO enjoy attending a BCA meet!! I am PROUD to say I am a member continuously since 1980. The BCA was the first club I joined and I've always had fun at the BCA meets.

I am sorry if I upset you...it was not my intent.

PS: Let the Opel's in.

[Guest Duane-Heckman]

Kris Syrdal,

You make a very good point about not “obsessing over what USED to be, and start thinking about what can I do NOW” however people that ignore the past often fall into the same traps because they have not LEARNED from the past.

<O:p

You also brought up an example of a guy that had a problem with a 38/39 Street rod he brought to a BCA National Meet in 1979; well I had the same type of problem at the BCA Nationals in Columbus in 1999 with the GSX-El Camino that I built. (Talk about being a redheaded stepchild.) It was like getting a double whammy, first for having one of those loud obnoxious Gran Sports, and then to commit the ultimate sacrilege of making a modified car out of it. Plus here is the saddest thing of all, I didn't care about winning a trophy. I built the car because I wanted to do it knowing full well there was no specific class for it. All I hoped to do was put it in the show as a "Display only vehicle" so the membership could see it.

<O:p

You simply cannot ignore the fact that the GS & GN people have been snubbed for years by the BCA. Part of what you are seeing now (reduced membership) can be attributed to the fact that basically 2 generations of Buick owners have been, at the barest minimum, looked down upon, by a substantial part of the BCA membership for years. I am certain this feeling of “not being wanted” has led to many of the GS/GN owners either not renewing their BCA memberships or of not getting them in the first place.

<O:pNow you have the opportunity to bring the Opels into the BCA fold, and the question I have is this “Will the BCA repeat history, like they did with the GS/GN cars, or will they step up to the plate and welcome them with open arms?”

I also agree with Keith that; “I think it would behoove the BCA to court the Opel group and invite them into the fold, rather than have the Opel group try to knock down the iron curtain known as the BCA.”

I further think someone from the BCA ruling body should approach the Opel clubs and let them know they will be welcome.

An olive branch being handed to someone can go a long way.

Duane Heckman

Edited February 15, 2010 by Duane-Heckman
spelling/additional info (see edit history)

[jscheib]

As someone that almost bought an Opel GT a few years ago, I understand there is a quite active Opel club. I admit I have not read through all the above messages, but have we heard from many Opel owners and are we sure they would want to join the BCA and perhaps form a separate Division? Remember the Riviera Owners Assoociation is a separate club and surely not all ROA members are in the BCA. Are there a number of Opel ownwes interested enough to have this reconsidered?

John

[Guest my3buicks]

There was interest from the Opel community back 6 or more years ago when I was Chapter & Regional Coordinator, at that time I was trying to develop possible different divisions for growth of the BCA and that was one that I was working on and had had some contact with some Opel Clubs with some then favorable overtones - I doubt there are alot of them watching this forum since they are not welcomed into the BCA.

Again, the BCA needs to court them and give them reasons why it would benefit all to have that group under the larger BCA umbrella.

Edited February 15, 2010 by my3buicks (see edit history)

[old-tank]

You simply cannot ignore the fact that the GS & GN people have been snubbed for years by the BCA. Part of what you are seeing now (reduced membership) can be attributed to the fact that basically 2 generations of Buick owners have been, at the barest minimum, looked down upon, by a substantial part of the BCA membership for years. I am certain this feeling of “not being wanted” has led to many of the GS/GN owners either not renewing their BCA memberships or of not getting them in the first place.

I have friends with GS's for whom I have even bought gift memberships in the BCA and they are the ones that 'snub' the BCA...they feel they have nothing in common with owners of old family cars. In their words they like to hang out with other 'racer boys'....and you ain't gonna change that.

Willie

[NTX5467]

I concur, Willie. Yet there can be two divisions of the GS crowd, one that wants to only race and one that is more oriented toward normal use and car shows. Typically, the former far out-numbers the latter, with little "gray area" in-between. Similar might be said for the GN owners, from my observations. NO offense meant toward either group--period!

Regards,

NTX5467

[rivgs]

There was interest from the Opel community back 6 or more years ago when I was Chapter & Regional Coordinator, at that time I was trying to develop possible different divisions for growth of the BCA and that was one that I was working on and had had some contact with some Opel Clubs with some then favorable overtones - I doubt there are alot of them watching this forum since they are not welcomed into the BCA.

Again, the BCA needs to court them and give them reasons why it would benefit all to have that group under the larger BCA umbrella.

So Keith, do you still have the contacts? Have you tried talking with any of the Opel people since this thread has started and see if they still have an interest or not? The BCA is not a person or the BCA board, it is everyone who has a BCA number attached with their name ( or spouse or minor offspring ) You are as much BCA as anyone else who is a member. So talk with the people you have spoken to in the past, see if they have any interest and find out how many Opel owners would seriously consider joining the BCA if Opels were to join the fold. Then you can prepare a proposal and present it to the board. I can assure you that the board will listen.

[Guest wildcat62]

That is an issue that has been mothballed time and time again, something that was supposed to be discussed, but never seems to get done. When I was regional & Chapter coordinator, I had suggested the idea of having the Opel owners as a division of the BCA, but it never got off the ground. I think what would be needed would be a group of Opel owners to set up a group, and then petition the board for a "Division" charter.

Keith, I find this to be an excellent idea. A division or group/chapter of Opel enthusiasts...not even owners, would certainly be welcome to join. I'm on record for voting yes if we get 10 members.

[Guest wildcat62]

Brad, absolutely no offense taken with you. My offense is with the misconception of the BCA. I hope you did not take offense either, I'd hate to give you trouble on your birthday.

Stevo, are you are Lana coming to Ames? Miss you guys!

Duane, absolutely correct. I don't want to ignore the past history...instead I like to think the more open minded of us can and have learned better. On all sides. What some, only some people do by continually dredging up things is really confuse the newer members who have no idea whats going on. That seems to bring up the ill feelings in some all over again, and I just do not find that productive. Maybe it's a little too happy go lucky, but I like looking ahead and dreaming of bigger and better things.

I'm gonna be Miss Example again. I joined the Gopher State Chapter in 1992. This was a year or two after a big split in the Minnesota chapter and where the Fireball chapter came about. What was essentially an ego match between two people, and their group of friends who took sides split a club. A year or two after joining, a Fireball member came to our meeting and invited our group to some event they had. Kevin or Paul, maybe you remember more specifics...but one member in particular got up and let loose on him. It was baffling and really embarrassing. All over a grudge that some couldn't let go. There were still people in my local chapter, who joined after the split and had no first hand knowledge who took sides in the arguments. Why? To take a side.

All for nothing. It was pointless, embarrassing and bewildering, especially for some of us "newer" folks who didn't care what happened before. I can tell you it took a LONG, LONG time to get that group out of power in the local chapter and move the chapter ahead. And thankfully, it is in the past. Would I recruit a new member and give them that story? No. If a new member asked me why there are two chapters in the metro area? Easy enough, some people disagreed how to run the club and some broke off and started a new one. Today, there are two strong chapters in Minnesota and there are plenty of dual members and joint events.

Sooo....let's get back to the Opel discussion. This thread is 3 years old. Craig is the original poster on this topic and looked to solicit other opel enthusiasts info. Craig is a member of my local chapter and I see him at least 10 times a year I guess. We've had 2-3 BOD members from the Gopher State Chapter on the board for the past three years. No discussion has ever been brought up to any of us. I'd have to ask Craig to post, but I'm guessing there wasn't a lot of interest.

I'm coming to the end of my three year term. I've been secretary since the beginning of it and aside from the Books and Pete, I'm guessing I get the most questions, comments, problems of anyone on the BOD. I'm happy to help if I can, or get a person in touch with a person who can. I've not gotten one question about it in nearly three years. Someone, and pardon me for not going back to see exactly who, said someone should reach out and show Opel owners the benefits of the BCA umbrella. I'm honestly not sure we offer a lot to Opel owners. I can tell people there are lots of nice folks and we do fun stuff, but I have no idea how much help, info or assistance the BCA can offer an Opel owner. They are not unwelcome, I just don't see us offering anything really different or beneficial to them, unless they are big Buick enthusiasts as well. In which case, I'd guess they'd already belong.

There have been problems in the past, unkind comments and not making people feel welcome. As a BCA member, or a board member, or a human being in general...I hope everyone realizes we cannot correct all bad behavior. I've been a victim of it as well, and if I dwelled on it all it would do is make ME feel bad. I also would challenge some to look at themselves a little more. Written comments about cars are forever. Some people dig up ebay and craiglists of cars they think are ugly, stupid, incorrect and tear them up. How do you think a buyer or owner may feel if they stumbled across your post? How many make snide comments at shows? Words and actions can not only hurt feelings, they can hurt the club those people belong to. I don't want to join a club of jerks.

I'm not saying don't feel that way, or that you have to love everything, but as mom and dad said to us when we were young..."If you don't have anything nice to say, do not say anything at all." Better yet, ask that 19 year old kid why he picked a 85 Regal to donk up and let him...or her...do the talking. The problem with any club, not just the BCA, is making people feel welcome and a part of things despite of their varied interests. I joined as a 16 year old. My dad did not sign me up. My parents joined I think about a year later. I joined this club because I was made to feel welcome in a chapter. THAT'S how to recruit.

Being nice is really, really much easier than being rude. And, it makes ya feel better as well.

I'm going to go out on a limb here, and I want to stress this is MY opinion only, but if you want to throw words around like doomed or sinking ship, I'm not sure being in this club is the right decision for you. I just wonder what you say to people who may be interested in the club. My personal feeling is membership will drop a little more and level off. The economy sucks and being in this club is a luxury. For some people it is worth it, for some it is not. I will not debate that...it is absolutely your right to feel and think that way and it is not my place to tell you differently. What I will say is that I'd rather have a club with smaller numbers of dedicated people than a club with bigger membership and a lot of fence sitters. Fence sitters go when times get rough. I also think that dedicated individuals do more for recruitment than someone who is not all that into the club. I'll take a smaller, more fanatical BCA any day.

And with that, that's more writing I think than I've done in two year. I apologize now for all that rambling.

And Duane, I'd LOVE to see that car and pics. That sounds way cool and I think you should write an article and send it to Pete to put in the Bugle.

[Guest Dans 77 Limited]

I'm going to go out on a limb here, and I want to stress this is MY opinion only, but if you want to throw words around like doomed or sinking ship, I'm not sure being in this club is the right decision for you. I just wonder what you say to people who may be interested in the club. My personal feeling is membership will drop a little more and level off. The economy sucks and being in this club is a luxury. For some people it is worth it, for some it is not. I will not debate that...it is absolutely your right to feel and think that way and it is not my place to tell you differently. What I will say is that I'd rather have a club with smaller numbers of dedicated people than a club with bigger membership and a lot of fence sitters. Fence sitters go when times get rough. I also think that dedicated individuals do more for recruitment than someone who is not all that into the club. I'll take a smaller, more fanatical BCA any day.

Kris I am one of the "sinking ship" people. I will freely admit to it. But there is a reason. Its not because I dont love the BCA but because I do. I think the raise in membership dues is an absolutely foolhardy idea and will lead to the "sinking ship" syndrome. I cant just standby and let what I feel is an absolutely terrible decision by the BOD go through without voicing my opinion. I keep hearing the BCA is EVERYBODYS club, well the last time I checked that included me. Its already going to cost us a long time BCA member and one of the most respected people in the BCA. This gentleman has clearly stated that he feels its too expensive and will not renew. A man who has been a member since before I was old enough to drive ....... is leaving over this.

Like I stated earlier I think even if we only got 3 Opel owners nationwide , it would still be 3 new members that the BCA didnt have before. I do try to recruit even if I am one of the "sinking ship people". But its very hard to recruit (we have 2 local chapters going after the same group of people) then in these tough economic times to ask people for $50 to join the national and then another $15 to join our chapter. Thats money that these Buick owners could be spending on the very reason they would have an interest in the BCA in the first place. Id love to think that the BCA isnt sinking but in my own personal opinion the people on the Titanic probably hoped it wouldnt sink too.

Ive been a member of the BCA for 9 years. I joined because I had this Buick that I had no idea what to do with and to be perfectly honest a car that I really didnt want. I wanted a musclecar not a luxury car but I bought it A.) because it was cheap B.) it was much too clean of a car to continue down the destructive road its former owner was taking it down. So I bought it. I joined the BCA and found my chapter purely by accident. I went to my first meeting and met some great people. I stayed and have continued to stay through bouts of unemployment and personal financial hard times. Once again not because of the car , but because of the PEOPLE I met in my chapter. Now we are making it harder to keep those people and when somebody comes up with a group(like the Opel owners) we HAVE to look into recruiting them. If we dont then we are not trying to patch the leaks in the "sinking ship" we are just poking a bigger hole in it. I dont want to see the BCA go away thats why Im raising hell about the "sinking ship" . Im pretty sure this is the club for me or I wouldnt really give a damn about what happens to it.

Dan

[Thriller]

Here's a question, not to necessarily prolong things, but something that my brain is trying to work through. Let's say we get those 3 Opel owners. Let's say nobody jumps up and offends them. They buy a one year membership, read a year's worth of Bugles, and then what? I wouldn't mind seeing Opels in the BCA, and therefore in the Bugle. Would an Opel owner stay if they received 12 Bugles and the only Opel reference was theirs in the new member's page? There are already people who think that way...if Pete doesn't cover their year of car or interest, they're gone. That's a tough job to fill with over a hundred years worth of production. We also have some special interest groups within the BCA (e.g. the various divisions) who probably wouldn't mind more coverage. Would we simply lose some of the Joe Average BCA members then if the Bugles increased significantly in coverage of Modified Division, Reatta Division, BDE events, etc. which could have the result of decreasing column space available for what they are more interested in?

I can't really identify with those people as I have such a wide range of interest in Buicks myself, so I enjoy the variety of the magazine. Mind you, if such an event did occur, perhaps I would eventually lose interest in the Bugle and, therefore, be less content with my BCA membership.

I guess I'm trying to point out that it is all a balancing act. If we give on the one hand, with limited resources, we need to take with the other. That is what happened this past summer - the board looked at cutting costs by downsizing the Bugle...the furor created resulted in the Bugle being reinstated to its previous size and colour content and an increase in dues. If we cover every year of Buick in every year's worth of Bugles, not to mention the National Meet edition and modified coverage, we would have something like 15 years worth of Buicks represented in each Bugle, giving perhaps a page to each. Personally, I'd rather see some more in depth coverage as well as some of the travel / adventure and restoration stories.

At any rate, I won't snub an Opel, but unless someone can show me how it works for the club long term, I won't put on a huge push for it either.

Vehicles produced by Buick are primarily what brings us together, and we meet the people who are stewards of those Buicks and we become friends, which is more lasting than the Buicks...that's how I see it.

[Ben Bruce aka First Born]

Derek, I think you are right on. Some one once said "You can please some of the people [buick fans??] all the time, all the people some of the time, but you can't please all the people all the time! Just a fact of life .

Lets all just have FUN with our Buicks.

Ben

[Guest Dans 77 Limited]

Here's a question, not to necessarily prolong things, but something that my brain is trying to work through. Let's say we get those 3 Opel owners. Let's say nobody jumps up and offends them. They buy a one year membership, read a year's worth of Bugles, and then what? I wouldn't mind seeing Opels in the BCA, and therefore in the Bugle. Would an Opel owner stay if they received 12 Bugles and the only Opel reference was theirs in the new member's page? There are already people who think that way...if Pete doesn't cover their year of car or interest, they're gone. That's a tough job to fill with over a hundred years worth of production. We also have some special interest groups within the BCA (e.g. the various divisions) who probably wouldn't mind more coverage. Would we simply lose some of the Joe Average BCA members then if the Bugles increased significantly in coverage of Modified Division, Reatta Division, BDE events, etc. which could have the result of decreasing column space available for what they are more interested in?

I can't really identify with those people as I have such a wide range of interest in Buicks myself, so I enjoy the variety of the magazine. Mind you, if such an event did occur, perhaps I would eventually lose interest in the Bugle and, therefore, be less content with my BCA membership.

I guess I'm trying to point out that it is all a balancing act. If we give on the one hand, with limited resources, we need to take with the other. That is what happened this past summer - the board looked at cutting costs by downsizing the Bugle...the furor created resulted in the Bugle being reinstated to its previous size and colour content and an increase in dues. If we cover every year of Buick in every year's worth of Bugles, not to mention the National Meet edition and modified coverage, we would have something like 15 years worth of Buicks represented in each Bugle, giving perhaps a page to each. Personally, I'd rather see some more in depth coverage as well as some of the travel / adventure and restoration stories.

At any rate, I won't snub an Opel, but unless someone can show me how it works for the club long term, I won't put on a huge push for it either.

Vehicles produced by Buick are primarily what brings us together, and we meet the people who are stewards of those Buicks and we become friends, which is more lasting than the Buicks...that's how I see it.

While I understand where you are going with this Derek, the only opposing opinion I can offer is my experience with the BCA.

As I stated in previous posts I have been a member for 9 years. In those 9 years I have never once seen an article or series of articles relating to a 77 Limited. The recent Park Avenue articles are about the closest I have come. I havent stomped off with my ball and gone home. I understand that if Pete is going to do anything with the 77 Limiteds he has to have material to work with and frankly there just arent that many of us in the BCA who own these cars. So there may never be an article on 77 Limiteds in the Bugle but having an article about my car in the Bugle is not what I base my membership on. I dont really think Opel owners would be much different.

I joined like I said because I had this car I didnt know what to do with or get parts for. When I joined the BCA most members still considered a car like mine to be daily driver material. I even got yelled at by a guy at a cruise about how the cruise was only for old cars. He was driving a Celebrity wagon and my car at the time was 24 years old. Now my argument is MY car is not now or has it ever been in the Bugle (except for an interior shot in an article about our chapter) and Im still here. Most people didnt really give my car a second look , but I stayed . Its probably almost as hard to find parts for this as it is to find parts for an Opel..... yet Ive been sending my dues in every year since 2001.

Why you may ask.....

According to the criteria you set down .... Im not getting anything out of the BCA either.

What I get out of the BCA is enjoyment. I love going to regionals and activities with my chapter . Im still looking forward to attending my first national just to see if the Judges are as good as they think they are. I know whats not right on my car .... I want to see if you do I have fun going and doing with my chapter , thats why I stay. Dont you think a few of the Opel owners may enjoy that too ?

Its never been about the club ... its been about the people IN the club.

Dan

[RICK YOUNG]

Well if someone wants to submit a request to be on the agenda in Ames I will put it on. Just be careful what you wish for. Someone will need to step up and make it happen with a commitment to keep it afloat.

[NTX5467]

Maybe some potential Opel Division members might like to autocross on a parking lot??? Or do a mid-length Rallye??? "Drag race" = going straight, starting, and stopping, basically. "Circle Track" = turning left, with starts, stops, and such. "Autocross" = start, slow down, turn right,accelerate, turn left, repeat . . . at least that the way I see it.

Great comments, Kris and Dan and Derek and Rick.

Enjoy!

NTX5467

[Thriller]

Dan - the difference is that you had a Buick, so you turned to a Buick Club for information and parts sources. As part of this thread, I understand there are already a few Opel clubs. Since we generally don't have the Opel expertise nor parts sources within the BCA already, Opel owners wouldn't get that as a benefit of membership.

I wasn't trying to say articles in the Bugle that cover your car are the only benefit. I suppose I was clear as mud as usual. In the discussion on the dues increase in another thread, I asked about people who thought of the Bugle as trash to tell me why. I got one response - this individual had other issues, but wasn't pleased with a year's worth of Bugles not covering his cars.

You've been a member a couple years longer, but I'll bet I've paid more in dues than you.... I'm not going anywhere either. I agree the club is ultimately about the people - we are brought together by our interest in Buicks, and we hopefully enjoy each other and stay for that.

Of course, it is different strokes for different folks. For some, it is the local chapters and their activities. For others, the National, and perhaps 400 point judging. For others, the Bugle. And so on.

[gsjohnny]

in reference to the other cars;

in 1998, i had conversations with roberta in regards to the bca starting the performance part of the bca. it was brought up to vote and passed at the 1999 meet in massachusetts. it was approved. some bca national meets have included racing into their shows. but i hear liability has scorned this activity.

i think i also mentioned in the 1999 meeting that the bca should also bring opel under its wing. i know i had conversations with one opel group to come to a buick meet.

anyways, since 1999, the gs/gn club which covers the northeast, has advocated members to join the bca. also, the bpg, buick performance group, has also advocated members to join the bca.

if the bca wants status quo, stuck in a rut attitude, dont advocate anything. delete any thread that mentions changes, etc, etc.

if the bca wants to grow, it will have to change. take your pick.

btw, the first car i bought was a 1971 opel 1900 sedan. couldnt kill that car.

john

[bhclark]

I agree that Opel should be allowed as a Division of the BCA.

I personally love the Opel GT and was first turned on to it because it was in Buick Literature.

There is really nothing the BCA board can do until a group of 10 or more Opel owners petition for Divisional Status.

That's how we created the 1959 Division and it helped bring a HUGE turnout to the 2009 Meet!

Sold by Buick, Marketed by Buick. Period.

I think if they desire, the judging should be the same as modified and Reatta. Peer Judged in their own category. I can't imagine that would be all that hard.

As far as Opel owners not having anything in common with Buick owners and not wanting to be a part of the BCA? How much does a brass era buick owner have in common with a T-Type owner??? It's been said many times before....it's not the cars that keep us coming back, it's the people.

Inclusive is good and does not damage the brand or dilute the quality.

[HurstGN]

For those of you thinking the Opel just doesn't somehow belong in the BCA, have a look at this thread http://forums.aaca.org/f115/gm-executive-committee-approves-buick-regal-277516.html and tell me if you'll exclude this new model from the BCA as well. There is absolutely no question this IS an Opel...but is it a Buick? Which came first, the Opel or the Buick?

Just something to think about.

[bhclark]

I was going through my manuals and ads and found an undated ad for the Opel Olympia Rekord and Caravan. (might be from 1957?)

At the bottom of the back page it states "The big small car built in germany by General Motors*Sold and serviced by Buick dealers"

[buick5563]

Sometimes you guys all get tied up on the craziest things. I think I will really get into some high powered decisions later today....let me see....light beer or regular, scotch or whiskey> It is just a never ending thing.

Hey Mike Middleton, have you wrestled with any important decisions lately?

Sorry. Yep. Busy.

This thread (as they say on other forums) is TLDR

[dkbuick75]

Speak ENGLISH please---- Not everyone here text messages to know what these shortcut acronyms mean. Thank you

[BUICK RACER]

What does TLDR mean? - TLDR Definition - Meaning of TLDR - InternetSlang.com

[buick5563]

I don't speak like that either, then I googled it.

Too

Long

Didn't

Read

I just don't have anything to add to this conversation.

[RICK YOUNG]

So!!!!!! Who would like to be the 1st Charter Chairman of a New Division of the BCA to make a proposal to the Board of Directors in Ames in July? And who would like to take on the duties to establish and keep it vibrant.

" 'Not I" said the dog, 'Not I' said the cat, 'Not I'....................."

Rick