BCA Rules on Buick OPEL???????

[Guest buickapollo455]

Hello, Have wondered on the Buick membership and backing of BCA on the Buick sold OPEL. Until 1980 I believe OPEL was sold at Buick dealers. Infact in 75-80 it read BUICK/OPEL on the fenders. I have an option to get a 74 ralleye in good enough condition to pick up. Please contact me at c_geske@earthlink.net in regards to OPEL BCA representing Buick at shows etc, I have been a national show judge and know of no class on this car, but of course there is no class on Apollo and skyhawk and late model compacts and SUVs either.

[NTX5467]

There are TWO "Buick Opels", both highly different vehicle lines from opposite sides of the world.

The Buick Opel that many know about was sourced from GM's German Opel group. This would be the "true Opel", by comparison. They were great cars in the later versions, more in the early 70s era, but more econonbox import in the earlier "elephant" days (when elephants were used in the advertising).

The second "Buick/Opel" was sourced from Isuzu. I don't recall why the supply line stopped in Germany (for the USA-sold Opels from Buick franchises), but it did and was replaced with "Opels" sourced from (Japanese) Isuzu. I believe these would be the ones with the decal on the rear quarter panel "Buick/Opel", if I recall correctly.

Basically, Opel was a "captive import" for Buick dealers to allow them to have a greater presence in the economy side of the market, to compliment their existing higher-level carline status of their other Buick models. Chevrolet had their "Light Utility Vehicle" (aka LUV truck) as Dodge had Mitusubishi cars and small trucks, Plymouth had their British Rootes Group Cricket cars, and Ford had their Mazda variants. Basically, Ford and GM and Chrysler had about 10 percent stakes in those foreign entities to get smaller vehicles into their supply lines sooner than if they'd done them themselves (typically, USA brands did not make a whole lot of money on the smaller cars, so getting some already in production was a plus--a plus which later gave those same foreign companies a foothold into the USA marketplace with their own brands).

How the BCA would relate to the Buick-sold "Opels" might be a point of future discussion.

Just some thoughts,

NTX5467

[Guest my3buicks]

That is an issue that has been mothballed time and time again, something that was supposed to be discussed, but never seems to get done. When I was regional & Chapter coordinator, I had suggested the idea of having the Opel owners as a division of the BCA, but it never got off the ground. I think what would be needed would be a group of Opel owners to set up a group, and then petition the board for a "Division" charter.

[BUICK RACER]

It was discussed,at a BCA Board meeting, I'm guessing but could have been November 1997 or one or 2 meetings later.

It was voted on and determined that even though BUICK Motor Division marketed the Opel in the US, it wasn't a BUICK.

OPEL, the Isuzu version marketed in 1976 through 1980 was basically a Japanese Chevette, rust bucket, I had one! brand new out the door in April '77, a '76 was $3106!

[TG57Roadmaster]

Lest we forget about Opel's importance to Buick Dealers' bottom lines, take a look at two of my favorites, the Ascona/1900, shown here in Euro-spec form in 1975. Wasn't '76 when they switched to the late, unlamented, Isuzu variant?

There's a sweet '72 "Limousine" buzzing around town here, but frequent cards left under the windshield haven't produced any response. These babies are unquestionably GM Design, and are great, little, oft-overlooked examples of Buick's "price-leader."

I wish the young mom who's tooling around in that gold '72 Limo would give me a ring...

<span style="font-weight: bold">"Baby needs shoes!"</span>

TG

[Dave@Moon]

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Quote:</div><div class="ubbcode-body"> I don't recall why the supply line stopped in Germany (for the USA-sold Opels from Buick franchises),... </div></div>

A weak economy at the time made for a very bad exchange rate vs. the German Mark. By 1975 importing Isuzus was <span style="text-decoration: underline">much</span> more profitable for GM than importing Opels.

[NTX5467]

I believe the defining point would be that Opel was and IS a free-standing manufacturing/design unit of GM in Europe rather than a "division" of GM in the same sense that Buick is (or was back then) a division of GM. I am cognizant that GM could well have purchased Opel from a prior Opel entity (in the early years of its existence, just as Pontiac and Oldsmobile were purchased in the early years to make what became General Motors), but Opel still remained a free-standing entity "over there" rather than being rolled into a conglomerate of brands which became General Motors. I also do not recall, other than the "Buick/Opel" decal, any Buick nameplates on what was (or seemed to be) known as a completely German car called "Opel", which was imported for Buick dealers to sell.

Buick dealers were Opel's "in" into the USA vehicle marketplace, which tended to be mutually beneficial for Buick and Opel together. I don't recall why Opel desired to stop exporting their cars to the USA, but something must have happened back then, which resulted in the "Isuzu" Opels. When GM's (I suspect there was one!) marketing agreement for LUV trucks seemed to expire, that was when the Isuzu cars and trucks appeared in the USA marketplace as free-standing Isuzu items and with Isuzu dealerships.

The Opel cars were not a part of the Buick sales/service franchise in all cases, but seemed to be mainly in the larger metro areas and some outlying areas where a smaller car might mean extra business. Therefore, it (most likely) would be an "optional" part to be added to the basic Buick franchise agreement. In those earlier times, unless you had a VW or something that many people had seen, having an import vehicle in a remote area could mean long trips for service and repairs.

I concur that Opels did help many Buick dealers maintain customers of the larger Buicks and also motivate new customers to come into the Buick dealerships for their first time. I also know that once the Kadett models evolved into the later Manta model range, they got to be much more marketable vehicles that were much better than the prior Kadetts--no elephants needed. Not to forget the Opel GT coupe from back then!

Funny thing was that the Mantas with GM Accessory add-on a/c used the GM A-6 a/c compressor, which mounted low on the driver's side of the engine . . . being almost as long as the engine block itself. It was all that was available back then, other than the York-style compressors, so it was "all we had back then".

It might be possible to add an "Opel Division" to the BCA, but I suspect that with the differing demographics of those owners from the mainstream Buick owners of then (and now), there would be little use of such a forum here. I suspect the Opel owners already have several forums of their own, though, which might be linked to, if desired, from the BCA website. Expanding the Buick "network" to include Opel under the Buick Umbrella might be good for networking, but I do not feel it would be an area that would have many takers from the Opel side of things.

When Chrysler purchased American Motors Corp, many Mopar clubs welcomed the AMC owners and their vehicles into their clubs as they had become a part of the family. At that time, AMC owners had had their own clubs and such and there was no great desire for them to merge with any Mopar clubs. With time, some did venture across the lines and see what was going on in the Mopar realm of things and seemed to like what they saw. I suspect that some Opel owners/enthusiasts might be of similar orientations, as a general rule, so putting some reciprocal links between the BCA and Opel groups' websites might be a first step to test the waters. Then the cross traffic could be monitored as a means of seeing what level of interest might exist in the Opel groups as to them being associated with a Buick enthusiast group (such as the BCA).

Key thing would be the reciprocity of the link agreements, I suspect, rather than it being mostly "one-way" (from us to them rather than also from them to us) in nature. As with any other initial marketing venture, if there is a desire, it can be expanded as needed or deleted if there is not sufficient activity to sustain the continuation of the linked situation.

Just some thoughts,

NTX5467

[Guest buickapollo455]

Just did get a reply back from BCA board, and they say "not built by buick not a buick so not excepted at BCA shows or judging events" , pretty poor when even if not a buick they used it from 1958 to 1980 as a sales ploy to get sales in the showroom, and gt as a mini corvette, sold well. Are the 74 pre cars hard to find parts, for???

[BUICK RACER]

But if you go to the Other Buick Clubs link you will find this Opel Association of North America

I'm sure they can help with parts and info!

[NTX5467]

With all due respect, there has to be some lines drawn somewhere. Buick dealers having Opel as a captive import (even if the Isuzu versions had a "Buick/Opel" decal on them, they were still not built by Buick per se, or in a plant owned by or allocated to Buick Motor Division of GM, but by Isuzu) would be no different than current Buick dealers having an import line for sale on the same physical dealership site (for the dwindling number of Buick-only dealerships that are left). I'm not sure which BCA Board Member you contacted, or if it was all of them collectively, but I concur with their judgment on this issue.

Enjoy!

NTX5467

[Guest my3buicks]

Was the Reatta actually built by Buick, I thought it was built alongside the Cadillac Allante? So, is it really a Buick? The inclusion of Opel at some level in the BCA wether it be in general acceptance, or a division, it only stands to broaden the BCA base, and further enhance the Buick name. What about Marquettes? Are they really a Buick? How about a new Lucerne, with a Cadillac engine and a GM badge on the front fender, is it going to be a Buick? If a car was sold under the Buick name or advertised under the Buick name, it needs to be accepted by the BCA.

[Guest BJM]

Reatta had it's own craft works area in Lansing Michigan, NOT built at all with the Allante.

Splitting hairs with some of the other comparisons, IMO. GM has always shared bodies and technology going back to the 30's especially. Obviously, this blew up in a big way in the 70's when motors were used from different divisions.

LuCerne is Buick badged. Opel was Opel. Cadillac had the Opel derivative Catera recently but it was 100 per cent badged as a Cadillac.

[Guest my3buicks]

Opel

[Guest my3buicks]

Opel # 2

[Guest my3buicks]

Opel # 3

Seems to me, if it's sold by Buick, serviced by Buick, in Buick literature and brochures, then the BCA needs to recognize the Opel and accept it into the fold.

[Guest BJM]

Appears Keith has a good argument. Advertising and shop manuals. Is there really a large enough group of Opel folks or is the one post all we are going to see? Is it worth creating new classes, trying to find knowledgeable judges for 1-2 cars per National or Regional? Or do we lump them in with the big boys? Reatta's and A bodies (I think) are seperated, so Opel probably should be as well.

If there was really a ground swell of Opel folks wanting to join then let them speak and act up, if not - it sounds like they have their own group and would not necessarily be interested in joining the BCA.

[Guest my3buicks]

I think as with any group, the numbers may and probably would be small at first, but it a good way to tap into some new memberships - the BCA membership #'s are decreasing, this is at least one way to increase membership, even at a small scale.

[The Old Guy]

I would think that if there is a real desire to be part of the BCA , they could petition to be a division just as the Reatta club the BDE and the BMD. They all have their own rules and are members of the BCA, and are not judged by the BCA judges.

[Guest imported_MrEarl]

Back in the mid 70's, after tiring of replacing Lucas electrical parts and syncrnozers in my Triumph GT-6+ I stopped by the Buick/Opel/Fiat dealership to test drive a used 72/73 Opel GT. It drove good and I might have bought it but could not get the headlight doors to open. I think I broke the cable trying. I ended up trading for a Fiat 124. Went back a month later and the GT-6 was still on the lot and I bought it back. That was the most fun car I ever drove. But back to the subject, I agree with Keith, I think the Opels should definitley have a place in the Buick lineup. We could definitley use the additional members.

[NTX5467]

As noted, the Reatta was built in The Reatta Craft Center in Lansing, the first assembly plant with auto-guided carts that carried the vehicle from work station to work station rather than an assembly line as such. The Allante body was built by Pininfarina in Italy and then flown over for final assembly, as I recall. Two COMPLETELY different situations.

The analogy of the current Lucerne with a "Cadillac identified" engine (if you look in the GMPowertrain websiste, you discover that few engines are identified by their model useage any more or parent GM divisional architecture. Therefore, the NorthStar V-8 is a "GM" engine rather than a Cadillac engine, although it's main use was originally in Cadillacs. When the real "divisions" of GM were rolled into marketing groups, no division had any "Chief Engineers" any more so no division could lay claim to any new engine design/architecture being built, nor are they assembled in an engine plant designated to one of the GM vehicle brands (as they used to be). Therefore, the argument that a Lucerne has a Cadillac engine in it is not completely true, although the V-8 engine in the Lucerne is also used in Cadillacs and might carry Cadillac ornamentation when it's in a Cadillac vehicle, but it's design is not solely a Cadillac design per se, as the 500cid V-8 engine family was.

Also, Opel is from GERMANY, not that national origin matters, but using the NorthStar Cadillac analogy as a reason for the BCA falling down on the job by not welcoming Opels (sold by Buick in the USA) into the BCA fold is not completely valid.

Now, another issue that hasn't been mentioned, but one that has applied to every new Buick built since 1966 . . . when the cars were new, they did not meet the "Twelve Year Rule" (as the '64-era Rivieras, the later Reattas, the Skylark GSs, etc.) so the Buick enthusiasts (and hopefully proud owners) could not show those particular cars in a BCA National Meet judged show, so they went off and did their own thing with their own national clubs and such, apart and separate from any BCA jurisdiction. In more recent times, with the BCA Divisions, many of these groups have come into the BCA orientation, which is good, but some of their national organizations are still separate entities from the BCA per se.

There were Opel Kadetts in sales brochures with other Buicks (as in a "full line" brochure), but there were also separate brochures only for Buick-built/badged vehicles too. This is known (and I have one of the ones with the Kadetts in it somewhere), but also consider that all Opel service manuals would be originally printed in German, hence the need for English-language versions which would probably need "Buick" identification on them for good measure and identification.

Still, Opel was a free-standing entity within the global GM organization, but it as not a division like Buick was within North American GM. Yet in GM-Europe, there was also Vauxhall in England along with Adam Opel AG in Germany. Hence, Opels were not built by Buick, designed by Buick, or built in a plant "owned" by Buick Motor Division. These are key points to consider.

I do agree with The Old Guy that if the Opel enthusiasts might desire to become a division of the BCA, they can initiate that situation if they desire (even if the BCA makes an overture to them about that, if desired by the authorized BCA operatives). As with the AMC situation I mentioned, it could well be that they are just fine with the way things now are for them (as the ROA and GSCA might well be with their own status) and have no specific desire to be a part of Buick-oriented group. If the BCA might send some communications to the Opel group about becoming a BCA Division, the Opel group might also suspect they would be "taken over" of sorts and run the other direction (considering they apparently have been doing well on their own). Or they could interpret it as a friendly gesture and opportunities to network and come to see what's going on. Just depends . . .

At the present time, the BCA National Meet's judged car show is a growing entity that has become more difficult to handle (and have a big enough place for!) in more recent times. Adding Opels into the mix, with all due respect, add complications which are not currently there. I also suspect their judging standards might be different from the existing BCA standards so that a car that would win in their meet might not place as well in our meets (provided judges are trained on the Opels too) for this reason--just as the AACA has their own judging standards of originality and allowed changes before deductions are made.

As I mentioned, the Opel Mantas and GTs were neat cars. I highly suspect few Opel enthusiasts would desire to become BCA members, due to the differing orientations and demographics of the two groups . . . although both would have vehicles sold by Buick franchises during a particular period of time, but both not North American Buicks per se.

Now . . . if somebody might import a Chinese-built Buick (with all of its Buick nameplates and such on it), built in a plant owned by a joint venture of GM/Buick and a necessary Chinese partner, then kept it under cover for 12 years, then it could see the light of day as a Buick at a BCA National Meet someday and be a real Buick. Check out the China Buick website when you go to www.GM.com and see how similar some of them are, but there have been some Chinese Buicks that do not seem to have a North American counterpart, in recent history.

I realize that the BCA is a worldwide Buick enthusiast group, but the Buicks we tend to focus on are the North American built Buicks and also recognize other Canadian variations and Australian variations of North American Buicks.

Perhaps we might have some input from a German Buick Club as to if they recognize Opels in their group? Perhaps this could shed some additional light on this subject and their orientations? How a German Buick Club might consider Opels sold by Buick might be a lead which the BCA could consider following?

There is no denying the financial effect the captive imports might have had on the domestic brand dealers' profitability in the earlier-mid 1970s (and later), but a "captive import" is still a foreign car in America and was not built or designed by any of the Big Three, but a vehicle line "purchased" (of sorts) for their domestic franchises to sell in the USA. This gave the import manufacturer immediate access to existing dealer networks and supply lines and also gave the domestic dealers a higher fuel economy vehicle to sell to existing (or new) customers. GM might have owned Adam Opel AG, but Buick and Adam Opel AG were two completely separate entities no matter how you bent that sheet metal.

Enjoy!

NTX5467

[BUICK RACER]

Has anyone thought about reading the Gustin/Dunham "The Complete History of Buick"? I believe the story behind Buick importing the Opel is revealed there, I know "The Old Guy" has and I have read most of it. But I can't quite quote the whole story, but believe it will tell you how this OPEL thing all came about. BTW in '76, GM owned 34% of ISUZU, as of a couple years ago, I think the interest is zero, but GM still markets ISUZU Medium Duty trucks, and the Duramax Diesel built in Moraine, OH.

[BUICK RACER]

And more to come, the new Saturn Astra will be built in Germany with the Opel Astra, and imported to the US, the new Saturn Vue will be built in Mexico, the new rear wheel drive Pontiac G8 will be built in Australia with the Holden Comodore and imported to the US next year with hopes to be a hit and built eventually in NA at Oshawa, Canada Ontario, then the new Camaro too. The Saturn Sky and Pontiac Solstice have a brother being built in Wilmington, DE called the OPEL GT, only going to be available in Europe. Can we say Global? At least, not at this point no Chinese Buicks are schedule to be imported here!

Like Willis said, go to GM web page and check out what GLOBAL means its amazing!

Also From Bob Lutz

7 February 2007

2008 Saturn Astra XR 3-door

With the Chicago auto show now moving into our rear-view mirror, and two major auto shows behind us so far in 2007, General Motors has already had a pretty good year, and there?s more to come.

In Chicago we introduced two examples of what our newly revamped product development organization can do, the Saturn Astra and the Pontiac G8. The Astra is a resounding success for Opel in Europe, and it?s a perfect fit for the Saturn brand here in North America. It represents what we can and will do going forward as the Saturn and Opel brands work together to strengthen both of their lineups.

2008 Pontiac G8 GT Show Car

And the Pontiac G8 is another fine example of our global product development organization in action. We?ve been talking about the changes we?ve made for some time now, and it?s good to see these examples in the flesh, if you will. The ultimate goal of our new approach to product development is to put beautifully designed, powerful, relevant cars and trucks in the hands of consumers, and that?s exactly what we intend to do.

As I?ve said, we have a renewed commitment to excellence in the passenger car segment, especially in design. That commitment was evident in Detroit last month with the introductions of the 2008 Cadillac CTS and Chevy Malibu, and it continued to be evident in Chicago with the Astra and G8.

The G8 is the second car off our global rear-wheel-drive architecture ? and the first to hit the streets of North America. The base model G8 features a 261-horsepower V6 with a five-speed automatic transmission. The GT version comes with a 6.0-liter V8 and a six-speed automatic, delivering over 360-horsepower. Zero-to-60 times for the GT are under five-and-a-half seconds. G8 has a wide track and long wheelbase for a firm foundation, the suspension is top-notch, and we were able to place the steering rack ahead of the front axle for terrific feel and responsiveness.

Inside, you?ll see the same attention to detail that we?ve been bringing to all our recent introductions, plus all the room expected in a four-door sedan.

In short, on the road, inside and out, it?s everything we think a Pontiac should be. And that?s the whole point of the exercise? to create cars with power, performance and design for Pontiac enthusiasts, current and future. Production starts late this year and we expect the G8 to arrive in Pontiac showrooms in early 2008.

I?d like to thank the team members that have worked so hard on these two vehicles, and I encourage all of you to take a moment to learn all about them. Let?s keep the momentum we?ve established going as we head toward the Geneva and New York shows in the next few months. Our work is by no means complete, but it?s clear to me and to everyone in senior leadership that we?re headed in the right direction.

Bob

[NTX5467]

As a side note, GM common stock is up about 16% since the first of September, mainly happening in the past few weeks.

I've seen the pictures of the 2008 CTS car and they are outstanding. I need to check what was at Chicago, though.

One thing is that you can't judge what went on in the 1960s or 1970s GM "global" orientations by current orientations in that area. EACH regional group generally acted individually and at their general will . . . just like Holden used to use Nissan engines in their cars down there, before they started using the Buick 3800 (balance shaft version) 3.8L V-6 (along about 1988).

In those prior times, vehicles were generally designed for their local markets rather than designed/oriented/built for sale in global markets. That is what made some French cars pretty much unsuited for USA driving styles and atmospheric environments. In those times, too, German (i.e., M- a/c was not the best in the world for southwestern USA summer heat (which probably started the windowtint craze down here, as it was "upscale" as most of the M-B cars HAD to have it for them to stay half-way cool in the summer.

Enjoy!

NTX5467

[Guest buickapollo455]

OK, then ford has put names on Probe as it was a Mazda 626, Most of fords mini vans are Nissan. , Chrysler used Mitsubishi in there cars too. OH S10 used ISUZU body and drive trains, they are not chevys???? or Chryslers???? or Fords???? , buick club needs to wake up. I have been a member for 20 years. and find as a part of buick sold the OPel they need to stop this stupid arguement , bring it to a head and offer Opel owners to come to Buick Meets. NO DIFFERENT As BUICK OFFERED the "APOLLO" , THIS IS A FULL NOVA AT HEART, EVEN BUILT IN NOVA PLANT IN CALIFORNIA, YET IT IS A BUICK. WAKE UP BCA offer opel its life as a buick from 58 to 81 they sold them at the dealers as buicks to most people in buick showrooms over the years.

[jscheib]

Well this brings up an interesting topic probably for a discussion in 2025, as the new 2011 Regals will be imported initially, as I understand, where else but Opel plants in Germany. I believe they will be later off a US assembly line in 2012. But they will be badged as Buicks. There will be a lot more of this in the future.

John

[Thriller]

Oshawa will be building the Regal when it comes over from Germany.

[Barney Eaton]

It has been discussed by the BCA Board...... I started on the BCA Board the year that Roberta departed, she said it was discussed before 2003 and I know it was discussed after 2003.

It sounds like someone needs to take on the assignment of looking into the possibility of some group forming a Opel Division. While that is not completely necessary, it gives them an identity and specific people to work on developing the necessary items required to get them rolling ......... a judging class would need to be established, unless they are OK with being combined with other Buicks of the same years. The downside of combining them would be the expertieze of the judges, they should have their own class assuming they could rally enough cars to justify a class..... I think the first year of Modified we had 3 cars.

[Reatta Man]

Yep,

The first-year Regals will be built in Russelsheim, Germany by Opel, then moved to Ontario.

Buick to get Regal from Opel

Does this mean the 2011 Regal will compete in the Opel division when it is old enough, but the 2012 Regal will compete in the Buick division the next year? Hmmmmm......

[Guest my3buicks]

Once again the BCA misses an opportunity to expand membership.

[Guest my3buicks]

couple press release photo's of the BUICK opel

[Guest BJM]

Once again the BCA misses an opportunity to expand membership.

Whatever. I highly doubt there is a rabid Opel fandom out there wringing their hands over not being able to join the BCA.

Look, this is not to impune the Opels. I wish I had GT project and they had their place in the 70's but they have nothing to add to the BCA. Nothing.

It has to have a Buick badge on it. Not a Buick motor or distributed by Buick or any other qualifier. Range Rover next because they used Buick V6's for years?

[Guest my3buicks]

Whatever. I highly doubt there is a rabid Opel fandom out there wringing their hands over not being able to join the BCA.

Look, this is not to impune the Opels. I wish I had GT project and they had their place in the 70's but they have nothing to add to the BCA. Nothing.

It has to have a Buick badge on it. Not a Buick motor or distributed by Buick or any other qualifier. Range Rover next because they used Buick V6's for years?

Maybe not an immediate huge member increase, but one that could be built in time - there are many small Opel clubs and groups, maybe a Division would work best so that the various groups could use teh BCA as an umbrella of sorts. I researched this a bit when I was Regional and Chapter Coordinator, and there was merit to the thought of adding Opel.

BTW, many Opels had badges on them that stated OPEL BY BUICK, so that screws that theory of yours. Many also had Stripping that also stated BUICK OPEL, HHMM......

Oh, Love the term "Whatever", it's so "Valley Girl"

[Guest BJM]

Keith,

LOL, Ok Ok with your updated explanatory comments I see your point.

But still what would Opel cars at a Buick function add except paying members? It's the quantity v quality debate.

If it said Opel by Buick, then it's a Buick. But I have never seen that on GT .

My wife overuses whatever and it just sort of comes, like, up sometimes.

[Guest my3buicks]

My kids use "whatever" also which usually ends up in a knock down drag out to your room fight.

Here are a couple examples of the stripping

As far as the quality aspect - there are many Buicks on the showfiled that where not quality cars when new - at the risk of causing a stir, the Nova based Slylark comes to mind, or the Monza based Skyhawk, just to scratch at the surface for examples. Nicely upgraded cars from their brethern, but under the skin still a Chevy.

Edited February 10, 2010 by my3buicks (see edit history)

[rivgs]

I have no problems with Opels being allowed in the BCA, I also understand the reasons why they were not allowed in the past. Perhaps it may be time to revisit the issue. I suggest that Craig and Keith ( you two seem to have the most passion on this issue ) get together and put together a proposal to present to the Board in Iowa this summer.

[Thriller]

Part of the reason I like Buicks is that they are a bit different from the mainstream. Along those lines, it wouldn't bother me any to see Opels at meets and, as a matter of fact, I would probably go out of my way to look them over because I can't even think of the last time I saw one.

[mrspeedyt]

land rover used the buick v8. jeep used the v6. i think...

[serb]

Sometimes you guys all get tied up on the craziest things. I think I will really get into some high powered decisions later today....let me see....light beer or regular, scotch or whiskey> It is just a never ending thing.

Hey Mike Middleton, have you wrestled with any important decisions lately?

[Ben Bruce aka First Born]

No disrespect meant, but I like Serbs idea!!

Ben

[serb]

Hey Ben,

No disrespect from me either, just shaking the bushes and rattling chains.

Stevo

Edited February 11, 2010 by serb
Bruce---> Ben (see edit history)