Bill Stoneberg Posted February 10, 2007 Share Posted February 10, 2007 Has anyone put Vintage air in their first gen Riviera ?If so, did it work well and fit ?My A/C & heat is not working and I am thinking of replacing it with a Vitage Air unit. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RivNut Posted February 10, 2007 Share Posted February 10, 2007 I have some pictures of a VA istallation on a 63. I don't know whose car it is though. I'm considering the same thing myself. It would surely be a much neater and tidier package than what's in there now. The most up to date technology. I'm not to that point yet, but I've been to VA's website and I like what I see so far.I just haven't taken all the OEM stuff out from under the dash to take measurements. If you can tell me how to post pictures, I'll do it. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dales90 Posted February 10, 2007 Share Posted February 10, 2007 Bill,See this Reserve Not Met, ebay 64, 230080602244 Vintage air looks pretty good, and put the console to use as well.I like the car, it has been on ebay several times, never selling. Called the seller, says 25K. Not worth that, but did bid to upper teens.Dale Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bill Stoneberg Posted February 11, 2007 Author Share Posted February 11, 2007 Ed,You can attrach pictures to your post by clicking the box to preview the post or attach a file. Then point the browse box to your picture file and submit it.The other way is to put your picture on a webserver someplace and then add the image link to your message.I look forward to seeing them. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RivNut Posted February 11, 2007 Share Posted February 11, 2007 The pictures of the car on ebay are very representative of the pictures I have. I'm going to try to post mine anyway. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RivNut Posted February 11, 2007 Share Posted February 11, 2007 I can only attach one at a time, Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RivNut Posted February 11, 2007 Share Posted February 11, 2007 Last of the three pictures I have.Ed Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mr Riviera Posted February 11, 2007 Share Posted February 11, 2007 Here Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
NTX5467 Posted February 12, 2007 Share Posted February 12, 2007 At the SEMA show a few months ago, Vintage Air had some "model specific" units for muscle cars and such. Of course, they already had their universal-fit similar units. I believe a key issue with the "model specific" units was that they would use the existing factory controls on the instrument panel for a "factory look" situation.As for performance, knowing the size of the evaporator core would be a key issue as I suspect the units will have sufficient air flow output. Plus the later "blend air" system orientation (which can be an issue with some users).On the other hand, as it only takes about 1/2 turn ccw on the adjusting nut inside the existing POA valve in your a/c lines to lower the evaporator gas pressure to about 26psi from the R-12 level of 29.5psi so that R-134a works as well as R-12 did in those systems, rebuilding what you have is a more viable solution. To me, the only thing you'd really gain with the VA system is the a/c compressor that will consume less horsepower to run. I can email you the forum threads on the adjustment procedure if you desire . . . including some participants that used a later '60s Buick in the mix too. When the low side pressure is adjusted to 26psi, then the pressure differentials between the high and low sides come back into their prior relationship and approx 40 degree vent temps result with a 90% charge of R-134a. All of this is in the file I can send you, plus where the POA adjustment is located inside of the POA assembly.Also, when you get the existing hvac assembly out of the car (in one piece, hopefully), it'll be much easier to work on than if it's still "under there somewhere". With the whole thing laying on the workbench, you can work on it easier and replace/refurbish the rubber door seals and other duct seals plus the heater core and related items. GM's a/c systems typically had a good deal of excess capacity built into them, back then. Personally, I think it would be nice to use what's there rather than get into some modification situation that might not be worth the effort and expense for not much gain, if any, other than "modern equipment" (which I believe means electric servo motors to run the blend doors rather than vacuum diaphrams, plus the newer a/c compressor and engine bracketry). I don't know what their system costs, but I suspect you could rebuild what you have for less money--just my gut suspicion--even if it needs a new evaporator and condenser and other things (sourcing these items can result in some price variations too, I suspect).On the VA systems, I would think there might be some street rods running around down there with those systems in them. Or you might head up to SA and see what they might have to show you and answer your questions.As always, your money . . . your time . . . your bodily flexibility . . . your car . . .Just some thougths,NTX5467 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Centurion Posted February 13, 2007 Share Posted February 13, 2007 Bill, my experience may not be representative, but perhaps it's something for you to consider.Prior to driving to Flint for the Buick Centennial in 2003, my wife insisted on installation of a Vintage Air unit in our '59 Buick Electra. The Vintage Air installer did a beautiful job, and several have commented to me regarding how attractive the installation was.There was not sufficient room behind and below the passenger side dashboard to install VA's "Super Cooler" unit, which was its most powerful. So, we had to go with a slightly smaller system.The system blew cold air, but I was terribly disappointed with the performance of the system. The Buick is a large car with lots of glass. The system might be adequate for a '32 Ford coupe, but it certainly lacks the capacity to effectively cool a '59 Buick. We were far more comfortable simply opening the cowl vents and vent windows.I regret spending the money to install the VA system, and equally regret the non-original addition of the VA system. If the factory AC system that was in my old '65 Wildcat is any indication of the cooling performance of a working factory A/C setup in your '64 Riviera, you are far better off to stick with the factory system.Again, my experience might be unique, but I would be contacting Classic Air in Tampa, Florida to locate the pieces to get my factory A/C system working again. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bill Stoneberg Posted February 13, 2007 Author Share Posted February 13, 2007 Heck,I am game for anything. Willis, please send me the file if you would. I might take a chance and see about rebuilding this thing. The only issues I really have with it is all the darn vacume lines that have cracked and broken over the years. I have plugged up most of them until I figure out what is going on.I figure I am going to drive to Seattle in this thing, probably with 480 aire... 4 windows open and 80 mph. I dont want to start tearing it apart this close to Seattle as I know I wont have time to get it fixed. Other cars have plans for me at the moment.Brian, thatnks for the info on your 59. Big glass bubbletops and A/C are like oil and water. I will continue to research to old system as I have found good info on rebuilding the POA and other parts. Now If I can figure out the hoses to the controls.... Thats for another thread. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RivNut Posted February 13, 2007 Share Posted February 13, 2007 One thing you need to consider on the VA system is that it uses R-134 instead of r-12. By the nature of the beast, r-134 isn't going to cool as well as R-12, especially in a car as large as the '59. There's a product out now called R-134 Freeze that's supposed to help the situation you're describing. You might give it a try in your 59. Because of the dash configuration and console on the Riv, you might be able to use VA's bigger unit. I would think that the smaller cockpit of the Riv, less "greenhouse" effect from the windows, and a bigger unit would make the Riv very comfortable with a VA system. It would be worth a call to a VA tech rep to tell him about the experience with the 59 and what he would suggest for the Riv.Ed Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
NTX5467 Posted February 14, 2007 Share Posted February 14, 2007 Bill, there's a possibility that the vac lines are color coded as electrical wires are. Something to help the assemblers get the hoses on the correct items--I've seen it on other cars, not to mention what seems like a "high silicone" vacuum line with colored stripes on it.I'll email you the file. I did find the POA valve from my '70 Skylark (which was replaced with a new ACDelco item just prior to our 1996 meet. It DOES have the adj screw on the output side of the valve, some of the later ones have it on the input side, but it's there.Enjoy!NTX5467 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TexRiv_63 Posted February 15, 2007 Share Posted February 15, 2007 Bill,I just joined this forum and saw your thread. I have installed a VA unit in my 63, the pictures that Ed Raner posted are of my car. I used the Gen 2 Super unit which is their largest and I had no problem fitting the main unit under the dash. I used bolt-on fabricated panels to cover the firewall holes so that the conversion would be reversible. I have now used the system through one hot Dallas area summer and it works quite well although my car is far from a daily driver. One thing to be aware of is that the VA is a recirculate-only system, it does not utilize outside air mixing. I have not encountered any problems due to this but again my use has been limited. My biggest problem has been deciding where to mount the controls, I originally was going to hide them in the ashtray area or console but this was not practical. I am now going to cut them into the console plate below the ashtray, you won't have this problem on a 64. I can supply more pictures if they would help. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RivNut Posted February 17, 2007 Share Posted February 17, 2007 Don,I'd appreciate any and all information and pictures that you have. My questions: 1) Did you use the factory vents, both a/c-heating and defroster? I live far enough north that the heater will be important to me as well. 2) What all comes with the VA package and what other parts did you need to provide on your own. 3) If it's not too personal, what kind of money did this set you back. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TexRiv_63 Posted February 19, 2007 Share Posted February 19, 2007 Ed,I used the Gen II Super unit which is VA's largest, with heat and defrost built in. It comes as a package with condenser, compressor, main underdash unit, controls, wiring harness, refrigerant hoses, and assorted fittings. This is NOT a custom-fit kit and it DOES NOT include compressor mounting brackets, belts, etc. First thing to do is get the latest VA catalog and locate a dealer near you. Buy the kit from them, in my case it was Sachse Rod Shop near Dallas and they were very helpful. They sell and install many of these units and talked me through the install. They also exchanged the fittings in the kit for the ones I actually needed for my car plus they crimped all my hoses once I cut them to size. They also charged the system when I was done, this system is not like factory systems and needs someone with experience to charge it. When you do the conversion the only thing left under the hood is the compressor, dryer, and hoses, really cleans things up. I reused all the factory vents plus the defroster outlets. I also used an optional bulkhead connector for running the hoses thru the firewall for a cleaner look. Like I said in my previous post I wound up going for the backlit slide controls which I will have to cut into my 63 console panel, in a 64 they could probably just replace the controls already there. You will have to fabricate compressor mounts, condenser mount, and cover the holes in the firewall. I made steel cover plates for mine so that the install could be reversed if necessary, although I will never be doing that. The compressor mounting is actually very simple, you can use the stock bottom front compressor mount with a little filing, adapt the stock brace to the intake, and then I just made a simple bracket that mounts to a front head bolt to support the rear of the smaller compressor.Total cost is probably $1400 to $1500 out of pocket, of course that figures my labor as totally free as always. Send me a private message with your e-mail address and I will send you more photos from my home e-mail. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rawja Posted February 19, 2007 Share Posted February 19, 2007 I've been following this thread, and I thought this might be helpful.Dakota Digital makes controlers for Vintage Air systems, which make the system work like a modern car with automatic climate control. The control heads look reasonabbly attractive(IMO), but if you are a stickler for maintaining the factory original appearance of your interior, given that it is a "set it and forget it" type controller, you could easily mount it somewhere inconspicious like an ashtray or glove box since you probably wouldn't need to adjust it much.Just throwing it out there.... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
NTX5467 Posted February 20, 2007 Share Posted February 20, 2007 Some great pictures of the control heads. If the system can be completely automatic, once a temperature is set, will it switch the vents (i.e., if the outside temp is 35 degrees F and the controller is set on 75 degrees F) from, say, the instrument panel vents (for normal a/c operation to maintain the set temperature) to the floor heat vents until (possibly) the interior temp again reaches 75 degrees F and the outside temperature rises to where the "heat" function is no longer as necessary . . . as many factory auto a/c systems will do? Is there an outside air temp sensor and where do they suggest you mount the inside temp sensor (many of the factory systems have a little "grille" that has a small fan blower to move air over the temp sensor itself, behind the grille--sometimes called "aspirator" in some of the GM parts books).Just a few curiousities . . .NTX5467 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rawja Posted February 20, 2007 Share Posted February 20, 2007 Well here's a link to the installation instructions.It would appear that you need to mount sensors within the Vintage Air unit. http://www.dakotadigital.com/pdf/dcc-2200.pdfI dont know if it varies the output to particular outlets. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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