Unusual Wheels in a Factory Photograph -- Identification Please.

[W_Higgins]

The vehicle in question (top photograph):

They don't look like 30x3's, but they don't look like typical 21" either. Note, they have six lugs. I plan on making a replica one of these, so I'd like to be as accurate as I possibly can. Do you think it's a 21" with oval shaved spokes?

[Guest tmodelman]

That picture, checked carefully shows these wheels are some type of non-Ford wheels. Lots of mfg made wood wheels so these could be any different brand.

They appear to be 30x3 1/2 tires all around, so the wheels are probably 23" dia. The early light cars used that popular size, 30x3 1/2 , Ford put the cheaper 30x3 on the front to save $$ as the cost of a set of tires was about 20% of the whole car back then,

Here is a scan from a 1910 Tire Booklet, the demountable wheels shown are Empire brand, and the spokes may be oval, but the wood fellow is square. This brand used rotating clamps to secure the rim, appears these clamps stayed on the wood fellow when rim/tire changing.

[Layden B]

They are not 30 x 3 but in 1911 they would not be 21" either. They may be 30 x 3 1/2 aftermarket Firestone type F demountable rims. Several companies were offering demountable wheels for Fords at this time.

[W_Higgins]

Thanks everybody. I just thought that since the whole car itself is unusual, the wheels might have been part of a package. Are there any other instances of a Ford factory offering using different wheels? Perhaps in the DB days, things were less standardized. After rereading the paragraph with that car, it doesn't specifically say that Ford built those special Torpedos. Do any of you know if the car itself is a Ford offering, or if they were created by a different firm? Since the paragraph reads, "Note demountable rims, "special" equipment on these fire-department cars." -- that seems to be written with some authority that all ten of those special cars had the same wheels.

I think from a speedster standpoint, that is one sharp design. It would be interesting to know more about its origin.

[Guest tmodelman]

There are a few references of non-production Ford T's being assembled at the factory. But this was special work, and very few if any were made after the later 1914 assembly line push, as the T was selling faster than Ford could build them, why would Henry stop the line for a special!

According to B. McCalley book Model T Ford. page 499. data, a serial # 68,400, 1911 Open Runabout (Torpedo like feature) was made Sep 13, in RED color, Pontiac body mfg, windshield DELETE, all E&J lamps, with factory note "Special for KFD" Was K "F" "D" a Fire Department

Now this may be the T shown in the picture you posted from page 55 of Clymer's book, this T has no windshield and has E&J lamps, plus fire bell and other special features, like wheels and trunk and on the rear what looks like a fire lantern, which would have been carried as at nite, when the firefighters put out the fire, the hand lantern was needed to see in the darkness. Could be this picture is serial # 68,400!

[W_Higgins]

Good catch! I used to have a copy of McCalley's book at my disposal and got lazy and never ordered one for myself. I ordered a new copy tonight. I had never noticed that before and am looking forward to picking it over when my new book comes in. Thanks for sharing that. Does the McCalley book have a picture of #68,400, or just specs?

[Guest tmodelman]

The Book only has data copied from the original Ford factory shipping invoice copies. There is no picture. But this book has lots of pictures of Torpedo and Open Runabouts.

Since you have a 1911, you can get your own copy of the Ford invoice for your serial # T, from the Henry Ford, Benson Ford Research Center, go online at The Henry Ford, and it will take you to the order lines.

Bruce copied only a few of the factory records, but you can also visit there in Dearborn and do your own research on the records that exist only from # 1,119 to motor # 70,000.

[W_Higgins]

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Quote:</div><div class="ubbcode-body"> Since you have a 1911, you can get your own copy of the Ford invoice for your serial # T, from the Henry Ford, Benson Ford Research Center, go online at The Henry Ford, and it will take you to the order lines. </div></div>

Unfortunately, I cannot. I'm putting my car together from pieces. I'm trying to be as accurate as I can by using earlier parts, but I've had to compromise in some places until more suitable parts come along. I have neither an '11 block nor frame from which to pull a number.

For instance, you noted the use of E&J lamps on the car in question (the picture seems to show the same), all I have at the moment are a very nice pair of John Brown no. 19's. Not totally correct, but still T, and still early. I'll trade up when the right set comes along.

While we're on the subject, I'd love to have an open-valve engine, but have been unsuccessful in locating one.

[Guest tmodelman]

Walter

That's still fine! The fun thing with T's is all the parts interchange over the years and you can have a bunch of fun. My current T project is an '09 runabout replica, using later easy to find T parts, with a fairly accurate repro body, repro fenders and all the stuff on top of the frame to make a nice looking early brass tour T. At least will be adding original '09 E&J 466 lamps. The side lamps to be E&J period, so I will a few have real '09 parts to be on it when done.

Would too like to have a real '09, but touring with open valve and the thin clam shell rear end, and non-taped axles doesn't seem too much fun for my likes of reliable T touring, so I have used Henry's later improved parts for mine!

[W_Higgins]

That's a nice looking '09. I'm sure Henry would approve. I'm assuming Rootlieb made the fenders, did they make the body, itself, too?

I planned on using Rootlieb Torpedo sheetmetal, anyway. It's hard enough finding early sheetmetal, let alone Torpedo sheetmetal.

I like original parts where I can find them. My headlights are very nice originals, but not perfect. Still, I prefer original lights with a few small stress fractures, to reproductions. On my brass, the radiator and steering quadrant is the only place I'll compromise. It's been fun collecting stuff, I'm finally getting enough that I can start bolting things together for fitting purposes.

Good luck with your project.